1. #53381
    I'm not thrilled with relic weapons being tied to Manderville content, but I also hated it tied to zerg content either, so I'll see how this one goes.

    I'm REALLY interested to see how these savage dungeons actually work because I've long suggested that I don't think the combat engine is well suited to 4 player challenging content. With how binary everything is, it will either be trivial or impossible to the demographic it's targeting, but as always welcome to be proven wrong/pleasantly surprised.

  2. #53382
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'm REALLY interested to see how these savage dungeons actually work because I've long suggested that I don't think the combat engine is well suited to 4 player challenging content.
    Dunno, expect void zones to instagib you, bosses having a lot more HP and maybe an enrage timer, so DPS actually matters.
    Outgoing DPS is tricky, I don't think there is that much more they can dish out at a single healer.

    I don't think we will see much groundbraking stuff. Dungeons won't suddently turn into savage raids, class diversity simply doesn't allow for it.

  3. #53383
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'm not thrilled with relic weapons being tied to Manderville content, but I also hated it tied to zerg content either, so I'll see how this one goes.

    I'm REALLY interested to see how these savage dungeons actually work because I've long suggested that I don't think the combat engine is well suited to 4 player challenging content. With how binary everything is, it will either be trivial or impossible to the demographic it's targeting, but as always welcome to be proven wrong/pleasantly surprised.
    Honestly, I'm a bit surprised about it being connected to the Maderville stuff considering I've always had that in my mind as optional side content and the overall response to it that I've seen means that people are pretty much in the same boat. I feel like they could have given us Manderville weapons without tying it to Hilidies quests, but eh.

    Overall, I don't think it's that big of an issue overall. If folks really hate the humor, they can skip the cutscenes and by doing that you've got maybe half an hour, little more so of content to go through to get all caught up? But we'll have to see just how it's handled, since this would be only the second Relic I'm going through while it's modern content. Which reminds me, still need to finish my Shadowbringers one. Stuck on that stupid 'Get 30 of these items' bit.

    As for the content in the dungeons, I think it could work. Yeah, the balance is set up to where 8 is a bit better suited number, but I feel like there's enough ways for them to rearrange the balance of these things to give us a decent challange. I'm more concerned about the reward scheme more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Dunno, expect void zones to instagib you, bosses having a lot more HP and maybe an enrage timer, so DPS actually matters.
    Outgoing DPS is tricky, I don't think there is that much more they can dish out at a single healer.

    I don't think we will see much groundbraking stuff. Dungeons won't suddently turn into savage raids, class diversity simply doesn't allow for it.
    I don't expect the dungeons to be savage raids, but I would expect a similar level of cohesion at least to something like, say, P1S. That fight outside of the 4 chains mechanic isn't the most complicated and I could see something like that being paired down to four players. Honestly, the thing I'd like to see more than anything else would for them to go and require us to actually use some of the abilities/attributes of our skills that we've not used for ages, like the tanks having to use their stuns against targets, the movement slows of the classes, and actually having to focus some targets over others.

  4. #53384
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Dunno, expect void zones to instagib you, bosses having a lot more HP and maybe an enrage timer, so DPS actually matters.
    Outgoing DPS is tricky, I don't think there is that much more they can dish out at a single healer.

    I don't think we will see much groundbraking stuff. Dungeons won't suddently turn into savage raids, class diversity simply doesn't allow for it.
    Bingo, but like I said, I'm worried that this will likely either be trivial to the people it's targeting, or pretty much impossible. I fail to see how it generates sufficient challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    As for the content in the dungeons, I think it could work. Yeah, the balance is set up to where 8 is a bit better suited number, but I feel like there's enough ways for them to rearrange the balance of these things to give us a decent challange. I'm more concerned about the reward scheme more than anything.

    I don't expect the dungeons to be savage raids, but I would expect a similar level of cohesion at least to something like, say, P1S. That fight outside of the 4 chains mechanic isn't the most complicated and I could see something like that being paired down to four players. Honestly, the thing I'd like to see more than anything else would for them to go and require us to actually use some of the abilities/attributes of our skills that we've not used for ages, like the tanks having to use their stuns against targets, the movement slows of the classes, and actually having to focus some targets over others.
    How though? How do you design let's say early savage difficulty into a dungeon? Pairing the content down to 4 players is actually a HUGE balance issue, because it means that a single healer/tank has to be able to do any and everything. That's what I mean by trivial/impossible. How do you get it feeling right?

    They'll likely need to add some sort of supplementary system to turn the knobs, because the existing system just can't do it. Even your examples like stuns/silences/interrupts, and slows etc. would need retuning because of how they currently work. Interrupt can only be reliably used by 1 role in their description so you can't design it to have more than 1 per 30s, unless you make the trivial. Stuns are fine, but then you're basically saying PLD is the hands down best job for it, and again if not PLD you're tied to the CD of the ability that only 1 role reliably has.

    Focus targeting is fine and dandy, but that just comes down to throughput. With how binary the combat engine is how do you make it non-trivial?

    M+ is some of my favorite content in WoW, and I'd love nothing more than for FF14 to have something equally as fun (or better), but with how rigid job kits are I don't see how to get there and I'm not thrilled about adding a sub-system to do it, because historically FF14 sub-systems are janky IMO (Magia, Pomanders, lost actions, etc.).

  5. #53385
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Seems like i finally have to do hildibrandt quests...
    Not if the relic weapons look like dung... and they often do (at least for specific classes)
    I'll wait for screenshots before I take action regarding that content.



    On the topic of savage dungeons: These will just be slightly harder normal dungeons for sure.
    Even the amount of mechanics you can make the group deal with is limited due to it being only for four players.
    Or rather, they won't have nearly the same impact, imagine E4S with 4 players for example. Coordinations is even easier and thus most mechanics are going to be pushovers.
    But I wouldn't be suprised to see one shot mechanics and enrage timers.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-07-05 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #53386
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The Void, another planet, not getting a zone to explore... but a linear 15 minute long dungeon? Bleh.

    No Eureka/Bozja zones for relics? Also disappointing.
    There's nothing to say the next expansion won't be on the 13th. Just because there's a dungeon there first doesn't mean they can't make zones later.

    And your second point too. They just said what the relic theme was, not what you have to do.

    Did you forget there's gonna be another live letter before the patch?

  7. #53387
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    How though? How do you design let's say early savage difficulty into a dungeon? Pairing the content down to 4 players is actually a HUGE balance issue, because it means that a single healer/tank has to be able to do any and everything. That's what I mean by trivial/impossible. How do you get it feeling right?

    They'll likely need to add some sort of supplementary system to turn the knobs, because the existing system just can't do it. Even your examples like stuns/silences/interrupts, and slows etc. would need retuning because of how they currently work. Interrupt can only be reliably used by 1 role in their description so you can't design it to have more than 1 per 30s, unless you make the trivial. Stuns are fine, but then you're basically saying PLD is the hands down best job for it, and again if not PLD you're tied to the CD of the ability that only 1 role reliably has.

    Focus targeting is fine and dandy, but that just comes down to throughput. With how binary the combat engine is how do you make it non-trivial?

    M+ is some of my favorite content in WoW, and I'd love nothing more than for FF14 to have something equally as fun (or better), but with how rigid job kits are I don't see how to get there and I'm not thrilled about adding a sub-system to do it, because historically FF14 sub-systems are janky IMO (Magia, Pomanders, lost actions, etc.).
    I mean, it wouldn't be the first time a job like PLD has done better in content or the like because of something like that, wouldn't it? I seem to recall hearing that something as recent as Shadowbringers content had something to that effect, but I don't recall.

    But as far as how I think it would work, IMO, it would be more of what is thrown at the player than anything. I wouldn't expect them to make the bosses hit harder or something like that, but outside of the bosses in normal dungeons, there's nothing really that anyone whose playing really has to pay attention to. Wall to Wall pulls are a thing for a reason in 14 because you could just have the tank round everyone up and everyone AOE them down. And bosses themselves, in almost every case, boil down to maybe two to three major abilities that are done over and over in a fight, stacked over various instances? That's the reason I used P1S as an example, because when you compare it to the normal version, you getting almost the exact same fight in a number of respects with there being more punishing versions of abilities. The stacked elemental mechanic is a good example of something I'd expect to see being changed from the normal to the harder modes of the new dungeons; them basically adding another layer that a player has to keep track on to complete correctly.

    One thing I'd definitely expect to make the content harder would be more wide raging/boss style abilities on the actual trash in the dungeon. Something that would give you vuln stacks if you don't avoid it. Heck, we could even get some of Bozja effects in here as well as far as Vuln stacks go where they're stuck on your for the rest of the fight while lowering the enemies damage so you're not one shot at two stacks, allowing for mistakes but still punishing you for making them. Forced targeting, like we had an Ammarot with a few mobs, could also be used to challenge the healer by demanding that they keep up both the tank and the other player being focused on. I could even see there being enemies with telegraphs that are entirely model based being the norm in these dungeons, requiring players to focus on the creatures their fighting to avoid the damage being dealt.

    Now I'm not saiyng that this is how it's going to happen or that you're even wrong that the game is too binary for us to really be able to get this content and for have it to be as hard as they're selling it to us, but I'm at least willing to let them try and I think some of the things I've pointed out might just be enough for them to actually be able to give us that content. We'll have to see when it comes out, though.

  8. #53388
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I truly do not understand the appeal of adding “real” clothing to any fantasy games. I look like someone you’d find in FFIV. Not at your local shopping mall.
    Lots of more casual clothing styles of items have far less issues with clipping with longer hairstyles than bulkier armour pieces does.

    Dunno about the rest of you, but that's a huge factor in why I've been gravitating towards things like that.

  9. #53389
    All I know is an irl designer screams fantasy more than actual fantasy game attire nowadays. Her name is Iris Van Herpen. As for someone interpreting my idea for "cute outfit" for school girl outfit is wrong. I think of cute outfit as short length dresses.

    The last row one of the red dresses I could imagine a red feather, short cute dress complimenting a Blood Elf. (Designed a bit different but still) Oh and the very last one I added in the collage is a concept of a wood dress. A dress made out of wood. This is what I am talking about fantasy attire...

    As for the ones that have length I dig them too. I consider that more elegant attire. Still I would love to see more of these ingames... even tho this is a FF thread. I would love it for WoW mostly. FF isn't as bad on the mogs/glamours. I think the last game I played that did decent on attire was TERA. People keep acting like we can only have one way or another. When WoW was first released we had plenty of options to choose from.. I just want what they had for us originally.



    This is irl attire too. I looked up female fantasy armor should see the beautiful designs women think of. Yes, women. So who keeps trying to tell women what they want and not provide it compared to popular irl designers or female concept artists. Just give it up and give us what we want. Stop mistreating us.
    Last edited by Kixxenn; 2022-07-06 at 06:19 AM.

  10. #53390
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Wish there would be games that allowed you to have very long sleeves like the 2nd image with the red dress, or a trail like the 3rd image.

    Also sucks that FF14 doesn't have any nature themed pieces like the last image.

  11. #53391
    I don't understand the problem with the Hildebrand quests. I did the ARR version, didn't laugh once watching all the cutscenes, and then did every other Hildebrand quest in a few hours skipping cutscenes. Don't even know why I did them, more because everyone seemed to think they were the height of comedy.

    Nothing in the world has made me more convinced that gamers have shitty taste than the Hildebrand quests. It falls in the same line of people who think FFXIV's story is the best story every told when it's derivative and tropey at best.

  12. #53392
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't understand the problem with the Hildebrand quests. I did the ARR version, didn't laugh once watching all the cutscenes, and then did every other Hildebrand quest in a few hours skipping cutscenes. Don't even know why I did them, more because everyone seemed to think they were the height of comedy.

    Nothing in the world has made me more convinced that gamers have shitty taste than the Hildebrand quests. It falls in the same line of people who think FFXIV's story is the best story every told when it's derivative and tropey at best.
    Personally, I found comedy in the sheer effort that I knew the developers put into making those cutscenes with FFXIV's janky as hell engine. It's not so much the literal events that were entertaining, but seeing these models contorted and abused in a process that I am certain was even more painful for the developers themselves. The absurdity that they exist at all is what got a chuckle out of me.

    But yeah... I'm pretty certain that if you're above 12 years of age and sincerely praising these quests as the pinnacle of humour, you have to be doing it ironically or trying to gain approval from the weeabo gods ("It's Japanese comedy, you guys just don't get it!" /s).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Wish there would be games that allowed you to have very long sleeves like the 2nd image with the red dress, or a trail like the 3rd image.

    Also sucks that FF14 doesn't have any nature themed pieces like the last image.
    This is why I hope they do a Beastmaster or Druid class. Everything is so clean and cultured... I'd like to see their take on something a little more primal (no pun intended).

  13. #53393
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't understand the problem with the Hildebrand quests. I did the ARR version, didn't laugh once watching all the cutscenes, and then did every other Hildebrand quest in a few hours skipping cutscenes. Don't even know why I did them, more because everyone seemed to think they were the height of comedy.

    Nothing in the world has made me more convinced that gamers have shitty taste than the Hildebrand quests. It falls in the same line of people who think FFXIV's story is the best story every told when it's derivative and tropey at best.
    Is there no middle ground?

    I enjoyed the Hildbrand quests because they're so silly and dumb, I never felt the content shown was the height of comedy, it just doesn't take itself seriously at all and that made me laugh.

    Same with the FFXIV story, I enjoyed the ride. It's not the height of story telling, but it was good enough and the way they tell it is better than most.

    Regardless, it's subjective.

  14. #53394
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    PSA: If you need the upgraded weapon for any secondary jobs (as farming P3S is still kinda iffy in PF): with the patch tomorrow the upgradetoken is buyable for an aglaia coin.
    Still need to farm tomes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Wish there would be games that allowed you to have very long sleeves like the 2nd image with the red dress, or a trail like the 3rd image.

    Also sucks that FF14 doesn't have any nature themed pieces like the last image.
    For you eveything fucking sucks about FFXIV, even if they were to add long sleeves you would complain they arent long enough

  15. #53395
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Is there no middle ground?

    I enjoyed the Hildbrand quests because they're so silly and dumb, I never felt the content shown was the height of comedy, it just doesn't take itself seriously at all and that made me laugh.

    Same with the FFXIV story, I enjoyed the ride. It's not the height of story telling, but it was good enough and the way they tell it is better than most.

    Regardless, it's subjective.
    When I started this game, more than a handful of people insisted I do the Hildebrand quests. They considered it a required sidequest, because of how funny it was. It's a sentiment I've heard over and over again from every FFXIV content creator as well.

    I did them, and felt nothing. And yet, every person I meet in game thinks they're fucking great. I feel like an outcast every time I suggest it isn't good or funny.

  16. #53396
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    When I started this game, more than a handful of people insisted I do the Hildebrand quests. They considered it a required sidequest, because of how funny it was. It's a sentiment I've heard over and over again from every FFXIV content creator as well.

    I did them, and felt nothing. And yet, every person I meet in game thinks they're fucking great. I feel like an outcast every time I suggest it isn't good or funny.
    Are they the height of comedy? No but they are in that area of being so over the top cringe that I enjoy them. Mostly. I'm just a big fan of Godbert

  17. #53397
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    When I started this game, more than a handful of people insisted I do the Hildebrand quests. They considered it a required sidequest, because of how funny it was. It's a sentiment I've heard over and over again from every FFXIV content creator as well.

    I did them, and felt nothing. And yet, every person I meet in game thinks they're fucking great. I feel like an outcast every time I suggest it isn't good or funny.
    Maybe your expectations are too high? People said they were amusing. I did them and found them mildly amusing, mostly for how ridiculous the animations and such were... and that's about where I left it.

  18. #53398
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't understand the problem with the Hildebrand quests. I did the ARR version, didn't laugh once watching all the cutscenes, and then did every other Hildebrand quest in a few hours skipping cutscenes. Don't even know why I did them, more because everyone seemed to think they were the height of comedy.

    Nothing in the world has made me more convinced that gamers have shitty taste than the Hildebrand quests. It falls in the same line of people who think FFXIV's story is the best story every told when it's derivative and tropey at best.
    When it comes to the Hildebrand questline, for me it's more of a context thing. The surrounding world of 14 is so serious and dark (And with Shadowbringers/Endwalker, melancholy and depressing at times) that having a questline where we're basically following Inspector Gadget is a welcome change of pace. The fact that they're able to get such over the top slapstick that still feels at home within this universe is enough for me to be alright with it. Is it for everyone? No, but it gave me a laugh when I needed it most after being forced to leave Ul'dah and seeing Nanamo's fate.

    As for the whole tropey comment, I honestly dare you to find a half decent story that doesn't follow tropes or have a whole bunch of them listed over on TVtropes and the like. Tropes are something that kinda are always going to be there no matter what you do and saying 14 is 'tropey' would be saying the same thing about stuff like Lord of the Rings or Star Wars and the like. And I know from personal experience that the reason I hold 14 in such high regard myself is because it actually made me CARE about the characters.

    When Varian died in Legion (Arguably the best expansion in World of Warcraft), I honestly felt nothing for it because I wasn't that emotionally invested in him, Anduin, or the alliance at all. I honestly felt more annoyed about the lost of Voljin on the Horde side because it felt like the Horde was just rotating through characters at that point and it felt like Blizz was throwing the Horde a bone by making us Alliance lose one of our bigger lore characters. Compare this to how I felt about Duliah Chai in FF14. This is a character whose made to be a bit of a joke, a massive cat woman whose rich and is so in love with her husband she breaks his back on the regular. And yet, this is also the SAME character who made me cry at the end of Shadowbringers because of how much love she has in her voice for Alphinaud when she's saying goodbye to him, knowing that she might never see him again. It didn't matter that a trope was used or even if a character had died. The story had invested me enough into these characters that I couldn't help but feel sad knowing that they'd never interact again, something WoW couldn't do even at it's peak.

    As for as the derivative bit, there's a big difference between wholesale copying something and playing homage to it. A good example of an homage would be the Eden raids, where some of the music, bosses, and story themes from FF8 are used to be a wink at players to say 'Yes, this is a FF8 reference', all while telling it's own story using those similar ideas. Hell, the ending cutscene of the raid is an almost shot by shot remake of the ending of FF8 in this case, but it's not something you'd ever know unless you were a huge fan of the game and the context of the story gives it a completely different impact. Compared this to Culling of Stratholme dungeon in WoW, which the entire purpose there is to replay a scene almost point for point from Warcraft 3's story. Yes, context matters here and you're helping 'preserve the timeline'. But you could easily label it as derivative because it's not doing ANYTHING new with the concept outside of shoving time traveling dragons into it.

    There's gotta be a point where you've gotta say 'It's not the story itself, it's me' and just leave it at that.

  19. #53399
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I don't understand the problem with the Hildebrand quests. I did the ARR version, didn't laugh once watching all the cutscenes, and then did every other Hildebrand quest in a few hours skipping cutscenes. Don't even know why I did them, more because everyone seemed to think they were the height of comedy.

    Nothing in the world has made me more convinced that gamers have shitty taste than the Hildebrand quests. It falls in the same line of people who think FFXIV's story is the best story every told when it's derivative and tropey at best.
    Not everyone likes Japanese style of slapstick humour, some do, others don't.

    There generally doesn't tend to be any sort of middle ground with that, but there's nothing wrong with falling into either camp.

  20. #53400
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Not everyone likes Japanese style of slapstick humour, some do, others don't.

    There generally doesn't tend to be any sort of middle ground with that, but there's nothing wrong with falling into either camp.
    FF14, aside from the big exception of the MSQ, is a very broad game that is made to be buffet where you choose what you like and ignore the rest. I think a lot of people have trouble understanding that, especially coming from WoW where all content is practically jammed into your eyes whether you want to do it or not.

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