1. #53681
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post

    First time I even hear a whisper of potential new customizaiton. It was something I was disappointed about when they didn't mention it during the graphical update, so to hear him talk about it here is heartening.

    I get that it's "no promises" territory, but it's better than radio silence.
    Ah good, another cool feature that if not implemented, people will use it that proof that Yoshi P is a "liar". Even though he repeatedly says no promises.

    But I'm always for more customization options.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  2. #53682
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    yeah, don't write that in chat - it's reportable and you account can get sanctioned if you let people die on purpose as healer (and say as much).

    I think its petty, but i'm the healer who's pulling the second pack if the tank doesnt, so we maybe have a different perspective on things.
    If they say it like that, possibly but admitting you let someone die because they wanted to pull more than the tank was comfortable pulling isn't grounds for sanction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    So is running ahead as a DPS, pulling like crazy and griefing the tank. I'd never say anything in chat though. I just let that moron die and be done with it. If anyone asks, I was "distracted". *innocent whistle*

    Personally I've stopped with the "gogogo" mentality a long time ago. A handful of minutes in faster clear times is simply not worth stressing out an insecure tank.
    This.

    The last time I ran into this, it wasn't me as tank that couldn't handle it, it was the healer who I could quickly tell was struggling. Had some Drg who insisted on running ahead. I asked him to stop, he never said a word, kept doing it, so after the first boss, I let him have the pack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The question is: Why does one need a tank if there are no w2w pulls? I'm not talking about leveling and sprouts mind you. But in an Expert dungeon? There is no need for a tank. So why should the tank slow the rest of the group down if there is no need for a tank to exist in the first place?

    Just now in my lunch break i did a quick expert - tank dc'd for first boss. We already had looted so no vote kick possible - after asking the healer we decided to just continue, single pulls (me rpr , and 2 people i have never seen before: smn and sch) - after no problems and also doing the second boss (tb hits like a wet noodle), we did the next 2 pulls w2w and while we had to use our abilities no one dropped every below 20%, endboss done - tank never returned. The only annoying things were no limit break and a lot of missed positionals.

    Now i will admit you cannot do this with every random group you find, but keep in mind we did all double pulls, and we were missing a 4th player, so lacking dps on top of it (and healer having of course to heal more).

    So... why would i let a tank dictate single pulls in expert? Again, i have a lot of patience for sprouts and wont enforce that on anyone - never did - will always ask - but i see no reason for tanks to dictate the pace or assuming some kind of leader role. If you play tank to get ego strokes it is the wrong decision.
    Is that scenario the norm?

    I let the tanks dictate the pace because it's the right thing to do. They're the ones who control the fight, everyone else just plays along. Most any dungeon in any big MMO, this is the case. It has been for years and for good reason... they are the key to the groups survival. There is no reason to play the "tough guy" card and say "I'm gonna do what I wanna do..." just to stick it to the man.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2022-10-13 at 04:47 PM.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  3. #53683
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The question is: Why does one need a tank if there are no w2w pulls? I'm not talking about leveling and sprouts mind you. But in an Expert dungeon? There is no need for a tank. So why should the tank slow the rest of the group down if there is no need for a tank to exist in the first place?

    Just now in my lunch break i did a quick expert - tank dc'd for first boss. We already had looted so no vote kick possible - after asking the healer we decided to just continue, single pulls (me rpr , and 2 people i have never seen before: smn and sch) - after no problems and also doing the second boss (tb hits like a wet noodle), we did the next 2 pulls w2w and while we had to use our abilities no one dropped every below 20%, endboss done - tank never returned. The only annoying things were no limit break and a lot of missed positionals.

    Now i will admit you cannot do this with every random group you find, but keep in mind we did all double pulls, and we were missing a 4th player, so lacking dps on top of it (and healer having of course to heal more).

    So... why would i let a tank dictate single pulls in expert? Again, i have a lot of patience for sprouts and wont enforce that on anyone - never did - will always ask - but i see no reason for tanks to dictate the pace or assuming some kind of leader role. If you play tank to get ego strokes it is the wrong decision.
    As long as people are putting some effort forth, I'm not going to pretend that I have some right to police exactly how they're doing it. They do their role, I'll do mine, and we'll never have to see each other again if we didn't have a decent run.

  4. #53684
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The question is: Why does one need a tank if there are no w2w pulls? I'm not talking about leveling and sprouts mind you. But in an Expert dungeon? There is no need for a tank. So why should the tank slow the rest of the group down if there is no need for a tank to exist in the first place?

    Just now in my lunch break i did a quick expert - tank dc'd for first boss. We already had looted so no vote kick possible - after asking the healer we decided to just continue, single pulls (me rpr , and 2 people i have never seen before: smn and sch) - after no problems and also doing the second boss (tb hits like a wet noodle), we did the next 2 pulls w2w and while we had to use our abilities no one dropped every below 20%, endboss done - tank never returned. The only annoying things were no limit break and a lot of missed positionals.

    Now i will admit you cannot do this with every random group you find, but keep in mind we did all double pulls, and we were missing a 4th player, so lacking dps on top of it (and healer having of course to heal more).

    So... why would i let a tank dictate single pulls in expert? Again, i have a lot of patience for sprouts and wont enforce that on anyone - never did - will always ask - but i see no reason for tanks to dictate the pace or assuming some kind of leader role. If you play tank to get ego strokes it is the wrong decision.
    To be fair, most people are used to tanks dedicating the pace/decisions in a dungeon, especially those of us who come from older games. And by the sounds of it, you knew what you were doing and had a strong healer. I've honestly tried to do the exact same thing in an expert dungeon myself and we couldn't Wall to Wall, though as neither the melee or healer in that instance, I'm not sure if it's something that I wouldn't have been able to help much with.

    And let's be entirely honest, even if you were doing that without a tank, it was much easier and probably faster with a tank doing it then a dps, right? And even in expert roulette, I'll still find the occasional tank whose either still fairly new to the role, or not as confident in his abilities. OR confident in their healer. If it wasn't for the fact that I main Warrior, I'd actually single pull for some of my experts because the healer just flat out isn't up to snuff and I'd rather slow down a little by pulling smaller packs VS dying and taking even longer because the healer choked.

  5. #53685
    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    To be fair, most people are used to tanks dedicating the pace/decisions in a dungeon, especially those of us who come from older games. And by the sounds of it, you knew what you were doing and had a strong healer. I've honestly tried to do the exact same thing in an expert dungeon myself and we couldn't Wall to Wall, though as neither the melee or healer in that instance, I'm not sure if it's something that I wouldn't have been able to help much with.

    And let's be entirely honest, even if you were doing that without a tank, it was much easier and probably faster with a tank doing it then a dps, right? And even in expert roulette, I'll still find the occasional tank whose either still fairly new to the role, or not as confident in his abilities. OR confident in their healer. If it wasn't for the fact that I main Warrior, I'd actually single pull for some of my experts because the healer just flat out isn't up to snuff and I'd rather slow down a little by pulling smaller packs VS dying and taking even longer because the healer choked.
    It's definitely faster to do it with a tank than without. It's even faster to do it with a third DPS instead of a healer because tank sustain is so absurd.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Is that scenario the norm?

    I let the tanks dictate the pace because it's the right thing to do. They're the ones who control the fight, everyone else just plays along. Most any dungeon in any big MMO, this is the case. It has been for years and for good reason... they are the key to the groups survival. There is no reason to play the "tough guy" card and say "I'm gonna do what I wanna do..." just to stick it to the man.
    *Healers* dictate the pace in XIV. DPS have very limited sustain options and prior to EW content, tanks don't have enough sustain to survive a typical wall to wall pull without healer cooldowns.

    The vast majority of content in DF is dictated by how well the *healer* can keep up, not the tank. Tanking in XIV is almost entirely passive before Endwalker (Warrior gets a little more interaction with it earlier than others), largely relying on raw tank stat boosts and occasionally pushing a button to passive mitigate extra more harder.

  6. #53686
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    To be fair, most people are used to tanks dedicating the pace/decisions in a dungeon, especially those of us who come from older games. And by the sounds of it, you knew what you were doing and had a strong healer. I've honestly tried to do the exact same thing in an expert dungeon myself and we couldn't Wall to Wall, though as neither the melee or healer in that instance, I'm not sure if it's something that I wouldn't have been able to help much with.

    And let's be entirely honest, even if you were doing that without a tank, it was much easier and probably faster with a tank doing it then a dps, right? And even in expert roulette, I'll still find the occasional tank whose either still fairly new to the role, or not as confident in his abilities. OR confident in their healer. If it wasn't for the fact that I main Warrior, I'd actually single pull for some of my experts because the healer just flat out isn't up to snuff and I'd rather slow down a little by pulling smaller packs VS dying and taking even longer because the healer choked.
    Oh i fully agree, it would have been even faster with a tank.

    It's not that i expect every tank to adhere to my preferred speed. Especially if they're new i'm fine even if they want single pulls.

    The question is: What do people expect?

    Being considerate to new tanks/anxiety tanks? Of course! It's being respectful to other players in the game. But that's a 2 -way-street, and my whole argument here. I despise people that have some god complex because they're the tank. No, they're not something special, no they're not the dictator of the group, and if someone tries to push this bullshit i will call them out, because it is bullshit.

    So, i fully agree to be considerate, but if someone jumps in with "I'm the tank, if you pull i'll let you die", yes, i'll put them down a peg. I also do this as a healer, i just heal the dps and show the tank they aren't needed, because there is no dungeon that actually needs a tank.

    And in the same vein, i'll argue against this "tank is the leader and everyone must do what they want" sentiment in this forum.

    and of course: 3 dps + tank is the fastet possible way.

  7. #53687
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Serpent View Post
    *Healers* dictate the pace in XIV. DPS have very limited sustain options and prior to EW content, tanks don't have enough sustain to survive a typical wall to wall pull without healer cooldowns.

    The vast majority of content in DF is dictated by how well the *healer* can keep up, not the tank. Tanking in XIV is almost entirely passive before Endwalker (Warrior gets a little more interaction with it earlier than others), largely relying on raw tank stat boosts and occasionally pushing a button to passive mitigate extra more harder.
    Tanks have always dictated the pace. I understand what you're trying to say but both the tank and healer have to be able to do their job as-needed by the group to survive however, the tank is the one who decides how fast everyone goes. They're the ones that will pull what they can, setting the pace.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Oh i fully agree, it would have been even faster with a tank.

    It's not that i expect every tank to adhere to my preferred speed. Especially if they're new i'm fine even if they want single pulls.

    The question is: What do people expect?

    Being considerate to new tanks/anxiety tanks? Of course! It's being respectful to other players in the game. But that's a 2 -way-street, and my whole argument here. I despise people that have some god complex because they're the tank. No, they're not something special, no they're not the dictator of the group, and if someone tries to push this bullshit i will call them out, because it is bullshit.

    So, i fully agree to be considerate, but if someone jumps in with "I'm the tank, if you pull i'll let you die", yes, i'll put them down a peg. I also do this as a healer, i just heal the dps and show the tank they aren't needed, because there is no dungeon that actually needs a tank.

    And in the same vein, i'll argue against this "tank is the leader and everyone must do what they want" sentiment in this forum.

    and of course: 3 dps + tank is the fastet possible way.
    Let's be honest, how many people do you actually run into who have a god complex? Tanks just set the pace, that's how it is. They're not doing it because they feel high/mighty unless they flat-out say something. Outside of that, they're just doing their job.

    People doing their jobs as designed or performing to their own skill level has no bearing on respect. If people feel the whole "respect my time" is such a huge factor, there are several other games they can go play where they can increase the value of their time. When it comes to random groups, you have to remember... they're random. Since "respect" can be measured so greatly, the best option is to act as normal as possible rather than contribute to the stigma the game already has and escalate a situation. You can try pretending to be tough because you're unhappy but what does that really accomplish?
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  8. #53688
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Tanks have always dictated the pace. I understand what you're trying to say but both the tank and healer have to be able to do their job as-needed by the group to survive however, the tank is the one who decides how fast everyone goes. They're the ones that will pull what they can, setting the pace.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Let's be honest, how many people do you actually run into who have a god complex? Tanks just set the pace, that's how it is. They're not doing it because they feel high/mighty unless they flat-out say something. Outside of that, they're just doing their job.

    People doing their jobs as designed or performing to their own skill level has no bearing on respect. If people feel the whole "respect my time" is such a huge factor, there are several other games they can go play where they can increase the value of their time. When it comes to random groups, you have to remember... they're random. Since "respect" can be measured so greatly, the best option is to act as normal as possible rather than contribute to the stigma the game already has and escalate a situation. You can try pretending to be tough because you're unhappy but what does that really accomplish?
    Seldom, but the topic came up in this thread, and the sentiment about "tanks way or the highway" was here, and i think it's stupid.

    The respect part is not about my time, i stay happily in groups learning bosses i've downed weeks ago. I'll not even comment on tanks single pulling, unless they pull some stupid "my way or the highway" card. If they're not comfortable, new, healer is struggling, no problem whatsoever. If they want to dictate the pace of the group just because they're tank? fuck em, and all their enablers.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-10-14 at 11:10 AM.

  9. #53689
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Seldom, but the topic came up in this thread, and the sentiment about "tanks way or the highway" was here, and i think it's stupid.

    The respect part is not about my time, i stay happily in groups learning bosses i've downed weeks ago. I'll not even comment on tanks single pulling, unless they pull some stupid "my way or the highway" card. If they're not comfortable, new, healer is struggling, no problem whatsoever. If they want to dictate the pace of the group just because they're tank? fuck em, and all their enablers.
    I don't think anyone is presenting it in such a brash way as you're describing. Tanks just set the pace. That's not someone flexing their muscles and saying "My way or the highway".

    Setting the pace because they're the tank is just how the game works. If they're not yet geared or skilled enough to "w2w" pull, that's fine. It's not a dealbreaker. Not all tanks are in the top percentile. But if we start letting others in the group pull more than the tank can handle, you're setting yourself up for failure. Sure, some random .01% of groups could survive with no tank but that's surely not the norm. If it was, the game would have to be tuned much harder and do we really want that? I mean, I'm sure some do but would that benefit the overall game health for everyone?
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  10. #53690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't think anyone is presenting it in such a brash way as you're describing. Tanks just set the pace. That's not someone flexing their muscles and saying "My way or the highway".

    Setting the pace because they're the tank is just how the game works. If they're not yet geared or skilled enough to "w2w" pull, that's fine. It's not a dealbreaker. Not all tanks are in the top percentile. But if we start letting others in the group pull more than the tank can handle, you're setting yourself up for failure. Sure, some random .01% of groups could survive with no tank but that's surely not the norm. If it was, the game would have to be tuned much harder and do we really want that? I mean, I'm sure some do but would that benefit the overall game health for everyone?
    I'm not arguing against that - i'm arguing against the "if the dps pulls i just let them die lol" - because that's just as stupid - and this was a sentiment shared here - in this very same thread.

    And if you want to come with some number aka "0,1%" - please provide at least a source other than your gut feeling, because my gut feeling tells a very different story.

  11. #53691
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I'm not arguing against that - i'm arguing against the "if the dps pulls i just let them die lol" - because that's just as stupid - and this was a sentiment shared here - in this very same thread.

    And if you want to come with some number aka "0,1%" - please provide at least a source other than your gut feeling, because my gut feeling tells a very different story.
    I share that same sentiment as the aforementioned people. I don't think it's stupid. If you're going out of the scope of your job, especially if you're asked not to, you're kind of asking for it. As mentioned elsewhere in this forum, about 3-ish days ago, I had a Drg who kept going ahead and pulling packs. I asked him to stop, he kept doing it and never once said a word. So the next time he grabbed a pack, I let him keep it. Was I wrong for doing that or was he wrong for going out of the scope of his job, even after being asked not to?

    And that number isn't my gut feeling. Groups not needing a tank is not any remote norm. Most people who claim to clear dungeons at higher level without them are either some rare outlier or flat-out lying.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  12. #53692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I share that same sentiment as the aforementioned people. I don't think it's stupid. If you're going out of the scope of your job, especially if you're asked not to, you're kind of asking for it. As mentioned elsewhere in this forum, about 3-ish days ago, I had a Drg who kept going ahead and pulling packs. I asked him to stop, he kept doing it and never once said a word. So the next time he grabbed a pack, I let him keep it. Was I wrong for doing that or was he wrong for going out of the scope of his job, even after being asked not to?

    And that number isn't my gut feeling. Groups not needing a tank is not any remote norm. Most people who claim to clear dungeons at higher level without them are either some rare outlier or flat-out lying.
    Here we are again. why is it not part of the job? The job is called a tank, not a pull, everyone can pull.

    If you refuse to do your job, aka tanking, yes, you're in the wrong. You're not doing your job while trying to force others to adhere to your playstyle. Not saying the drg is in the right here. Him doing it after you told him not to, is also stupid.

    If this would be AITA, i'd go for "everyone sucks".

    And that's the point: Everyone can pull, it's not a privilege or right of the tank. If you feel that way, maybe use trusts.

  13. #53693
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Here we are again. why is it not part of the job? The job is called a tank, not a pull, everyone can pull.

    If you refuse to do your job, aka tanking, yes, you're in the wrong. You're not doing your job while trying to force others to adhere to your playstyle. Not saying the drg is in the right here. Him doing it after you told him not to, is also stupid.

    If this would be AITA, i'd go for "everyone sucks".

    And that's the point: Everyone can pull, it's not a privilege or right of the tank. If you feel that way, maybe use trusts.
    As it's been explained several times, the tank sets the pace for the dungeon. The vast majority of dungeons rely on the tank surviving. If the tank drops, it starts the domino effect. Pulling more than the tank can handle only exacerbates that.

    And I am doing my job. Forcing others to adhere to a playstyle goes both ways.

    It's not a right or a privilege of tanking, it's just part of the job. Using trusts is what someone should do if they're not a tank but want to set the pace.

    What I'm gathering from you is that you're not a tank and you insist on going out of the scope of your job. If it's that important to set the pace for the groups, roll a tank. There are four jobs you can select from if that's what your goal is. It's like joining a company and asking "Why does that CEO think he can tell me what to do? I can call the shots too!" Random groups are not the place to try being an idealist.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  14. #53694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    As it's been explained several times, the tank sets the pace for the dungeon. The vast majority of dungeons rely on the tank surviving. If the tank drops, it starts the domino effect. Pulling more than the tank can handle only exacerbates that.

    And I am doing my job. Forcing others to adhere to a playstyle goes both ways.

    It's not a right or a privilege of tanking, it's just part of the job. Using trusts is what someone should do if they're not a tank but want to set the pace.

    What I'm gathering from you is that you're not a tank and you insist on going out of the scope of your job. If it's that important to set the pace for the groups, roll a tank. There are four jobs you can select from if that's what your goal is. It's like joining a company and asking "Why does that CEO think he can tell me what to do? I can call the shots too!" Random groups are not the place to try being an idealist.
    Yeah i know, you see tanking and pulling as synonymous - it just isn't. "The tank decides the pace, the tank is the one pulling." Might be your idea and the idea of some people here, but that's not some universal truth. just YOUR perspective. There are no rules for that behavior. Maybe you are used to it and expect it. That is nice, but it isn't some rule and you're right and everyone disagreeing is wrong.

    When i tank, and most of the tanks i play with would rather argue for: dps HP is additional mit...

    This whole spiel i'd say is pretty stupid from both sides - the drg for pulling without caring about the group, but you being petty and letting him die when there is no reason to? Both sides are equally shitty in their behavior. I'm not defeding the dragoon. I wouldn't do this. But no, he is not entirely wrong, and you're not in the right for and it doesn't give you a reason to grief him.

    I think we're at an impasse here, especially given your CEO example, shows me that you see the tank as the CEO of the group, and this exactly is the problem. The tank is not the boss of the other 3 players.

    I especially like: A dps is not the CEO of a random group. I - the tank - am the CEO of the random group. This is the stupid sentiment i'm talking about, especially if you at the same time do some petty shit like letting people die to show them who is CEO.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2022-10-14 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #53695
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Yeah i know, you see tanking and pulling as synonymous - it just isn't.
    In this game and many other MMOs, it is. The problem is that you're viewing it as them trying to be prima donnas and that's not the case. They're doing it for the safety and prosperity of the group, not to be e-thugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I think we're at an impasse here, especially given your CEO example, shows me that you see the tank as the CEO of the group, and this exactly is the problem. The tank is not the boss of the other 3 players..
    The point wasn't calling the tank the CEO, the point was "You enter somewhere, know your place". Don't enter and try being some idealist with a chip on your shoulder, trying to stick-it to the man.

    Nobody is insisting that the tank is your boss or that they're at some higher level than you are. They're just the job that sets the pace. Someone has to and they are the most logical job to do so. When random-ass people try doing it, it just creates chaos and leads to wiping... which leads to finger-pointing or blame-shifting.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  16. #53696
    Yet another weird discussion that comes up too often and people make far too big of a deal about.

    Let people play their role. If you don't like how they're playing it, don't play with them again. I don't like trying to micromanage how people play their roles if for no other reason than simple respect.

  17. #53697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    A little, yes. Of course, that's anecdotal, but more rush rush rush. I've also personally been getting fewer commendations (I can't tell for others, of course), not that I'm entitled to any, but it's a notable difference for me compared to a few months ago.
    Just before I stopped playing I noticed that too. I just assumed it was cause at max level it’s not something done often. Levelling I always got all as a tank.

  18. #53698
    And I thought WoW dungeons were "go go go go" until I played FF... Made me appreciate the WoW community more

  19. #53699
    Quote Originally Posted by Uk Lok-Narash View Post
    And I thought WoW dungeons were "go go go go" until I played FF... Made me appreciate the WoW community more
    Below Mythic, WoW dungeons are "go go go go" but they're so crazy easy... like Sastasha easy.
    Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.

  20. #53700
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Tanks have always dictated the pace. I understand what you're trying to say but both the tank and healer have to be able to do their job as-needed by the group to survive however, the tank is the one who decides how fast everyone goes. They're the ones that will pull what they can, setting the pace.
    Literally anyone can pull. Tanks are not somehow special or even better than others at pulling. *Any* role, any class, can pull just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Yet another weird discussion that comes up too often and people make far too big of a deal about.

    Let people play their role. If you don't like how they're playing it, don't play with them again. I don't like trying to micromanage how people play their roles if for no other reason than simple respect.
    Respect goes both ways, though. If they aren't respecting you, then you have no reason to respect them, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Below Mythic, WoW dungeons are "go go go go" but they're so crazy easy... like Sastasha easy.
    WotLK dungeons are *MUCH* harder than any dungeon except a specific few (Bardam's Mettle, Holminster Switch, Mt. Gulg, etc) in XIV, and even then only if the tank is doing full wall to wall pulls in those dungeons. Not for any mechanical reason, but because in Classic at least, people generally don't have full sets of the best-possible gear available (farming full Brutal Gladiator before 70 basically requires you to live... aka bot... AV the whole way from 60-70) and monsters hit **WAY** harder, proportionately. Monsters often have cleaves, stuns, and other abilities with no telegraphs or cast bars, and aggro in WotLK is not nearly as free as it is in XIV - tanks still need to tab between multiple targets to spread threat and damage around, because a single Thunderclap or Death and Decay or whatever isn't enough by itself to secure threat against a top tier DPS going ham on AOE, and generally all of the "hit everything" attacks have a brief cooldown or resource cost attached. WotLK also has the dual issues of tanks needing Hit Rating and Expertise Rating in order to remove misses and dodges from monster avoidance tables, which you won't have while leveling... making threat even less free in comparison to XIV.

    In Utgarde Keep, for example, pulling more than one or at most two packs of mobs at a time is probably going to cause a wipe - either the healer will simply run OOM before the monsters are all dead, or the tank will get stunlocked and beat into the dirt while they're unable to use any avoidance to mitigate incoming damage. Even doing single pulls will require a meaningful amount of healer mana, and absent tools like Mana Tide or Innervate, the healer will probably need to stop and sip a bit every third or fourth pull on average. Tanks will generally not be Defense capped while leveling, either, which means they'll be taking crits or even crushing blows, which further increases the spikiness of incoming damage. Meanwhile, abilities like Shield Wall or Icebound Fortitude have lengthy cooldowns.

    Now, I don't mean to say that these dungeons (much less what comes before, or heroics once you have some gear) are "hard." Just that if we're using XIV's dungeons as the floor, WotLK's dungeons are like... a curb or something.

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