[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Dwill]

Any healer or tank worth their salt would let your ass die lol

Yet on the extremely rare occasion where I don't play with one of my friends who are both tanks, nobody ever does. But it's nice to know you're the one who dictates whose worth their salt or not. Actually, about 3 weeks ago, some tank in 7th circle was griefing everyone with the mechanic because a DPS pulled at the 1 second countdown. He was reported by at least 4 persons, 3 of them being myself and two of my friends. We all got the little notification that actions were taken against a report we did.

And then you wonder why some people are bringing the tank ego point in this discussion.

I love how this has changed to now it's on the tank to keep up with a Main Character Syndrome dps.

Yes the ego-stroking one is the person being upset some asshole is playing out of their role, not the asshole playing out of their role.

That's some laughable gaslighting my guy. I'm done with you.

You say it's not ego then post stuff like this, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[Grinning Serpent]

This thread isn't about tanking, and it's not about gave vs. game debate. Let's drop these derailing tangents sucking all the air out of the room and return to general FFXIV discussion.

This *is* "general FFXIV discussion," though. It's a topic relevant to Duty Finder play and it's discussing some of the types of player you'll encounter while in game. If you feel that something is sucking the air out of the room, then maybe just (permanently) ban the obvious burner accounts that do nothing but flamebait, and ask the actual normal people to maybe take a step back and chill?

But the whole "a small number of players get a big ego because they've been told they are very special boys for being brave enough to play tanks" is *absolutely* "general FFXIV discussion."

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It's so easy in fact, you can drop tank stance and still retain aggro for while. Then put it back up, AoE once and shoot straight up to the top lol. The only time this ISN'T the case, is when you have a big dick DPS who has stored their burst for whatever reason. This can steal aggro from tanks who aren't used to actually doing their rotation optimally lol - it doesn't happen often obviously, but if you're a good DPS + a bursty class, you end up playing ping-pong-threat with a mob or two sometimes.

It's actually gameplay-relevant, too. A few GCDs in stance is all you need to permanently be ahead of the rest of the group for basically the entire pull. For raids where you need to be 2nd on threat (such as e12s, whose tankbusters are based on threat, not roles), you basically just flick your stance on after the opener (depending on class, PLD can do it on the 2nd or 3rd GCD since they don't really burst hard) and then you can easily turn it off and you'll be locked to 2nd in threat for the rest of the fight if nothing else changes. Tanks generate an absolutely insane amount of threat while in stance.

Playing as DPS, I always bring mobs back to the tank / away from the healer, but whenever I play Healer or DPS there are times I see that happen. As a tank, it never happens - sprint tanking best tanking. I've seen more DPS sprint up to me than healers, who are like in their own world, it seems. Just casually brisk walking to me as I pop CD's with the DPS. It's such a strange phenomena I noticed

Yeah, it's my experience that melee DPS will run *to* me, whereas ranged DPS and healers will try to run *from* me. But when we're talking about a pull, the tank will be popping their AOE buttons while running forward anyway so all they really need to do, if they pull threat, is just run to the tank so that the mob gets slapped by the tank spinning their axe around or whatever.

[Granyala]

On a more upbeat topic: My buddy told me yesterday that the "savage" 4man dungeons are due to release on Tuesday.
Anyone looking forward to those?

I haven't read up on them, I hope they are not just a mad timed zerg like M+ but rather involve slow and methodical pulls, waiting for patrols etc.

[KrayZ33]

On a more upbeat topic: My buddy told me yesterday that the "savage" 4man dungeons are due to release on Tuesday.
Anyone looking forward to those?

I haven't read up on them, I hope they are not just a mad timed zerg like M+ but rather involve slow and methodical pulls, waiting for patrols etc.

I don't expect anything other than just harder bosses.

[Ludek]

On a more upbeat topic: My buddy told me yesterday that the "savage" 4man dungeons are due to release on Tuesday.
Anyone looking forward to those?

I haven't read up on them, I hope they are not just a mad timed zerg like M+ but rather involve slow and methodical pulls, waiting for patrols etc.

Unless the very dungeon design policy would change, there is very few options to make dungeons harder in this game. With how current dungeon works they can maybe remove most of the UI indicators and make us look what boss model is doing (like in Savage), then maybe to require kick something every minute.

Not much else, XIV does not have many direct combat utility mechanics which could be used in a dungeon, and with 4 people it would be hard to design fancy positional dances like in raids.

[Necromantic]

Except there's literally no reason that any other class can't pull. .

"Can't" but shouldn't. There is no reason to go out of the scope of your job and try stressing out the tank. You're just asking for failure.

You just infer the pulling role - there is no "rule" - and no - 3 people circlejerking about what they think is "right" is not a rule. Everyone can pull, and if you think only the tank should pull, maybe pop a sprint?

You are 1/4 of the team, not the lead, or the captain or the CEO. Deal with it.

FYI, the tank pulls and decides the flow of the party.

Deal with it.

This thread isn't about tanking, and it's not about gave vs. game debate. Let's drop these derailing tangents sucking all the air out of the room and return to general FFXIV discussion.

It's not unrealistic or atypical for any thread to have side topics like this as long as they're not a complete non-sequitur (a conversation about camping in a FFXIV thread). Tanking, being an aspect of FFXIV would fall into the "general FFXIV discussion" bucket.

EDIT: Was infracting that post for explaining my views for it being ok really necessary?

EDIT2: After a back/forth message conversation, he admitted my infraction was out of retaliation. What kind of place is this, where people can't engage in friendly, harmless discussion, not 100% agree with the opinion of a moderator and get infracted? I really hope he doesn't do that to anyone else in the future.

[Aucald]

It's not unrealistic or atypical for any thread to have side topics like this as long as they're not a complete non-sequitur (a conversation about camping in a FFXIV thread). Tanking, being an aspect of FFXIV would fall into the "general FFXIV discussion" bucket.

This *is* "general FFXIV discussion," though. It's a topic relevant to Duty Finder play and it's discussing some of the types of player you'll encounter while in game. If you feel that something is sucking the air out of the room, then maybe just (permanently) ban the obvious burner accounts that do nothing but flamebait, and ask the actual normal people to maybe take a step back and chill?

But the whole "a small number of players get a big ego because they've been told they are very special boys for being brave enough to play tanks" is *absolutely* "general FFXIV discussion."

While true, a megathread also isn't an "anything goes" slugfest where a single topic should predominate the conversation to the exclusion of all else. There's an entire subforum for the use of multiple thread topics here - why not create a tanking thread for this conversation, which is obviously a contentious one with many sides, deserving of its own environment?

[Granyala]

Unless the very dungeon design policy would change, there is very few options to make dungeons harder in this game. With how current dungeon works they can maybe remove most of the UI indicators and make us look what boss model is doing (like in Savage), then maybe to require kick something every minute.

Not much else, XIV does not have many direct combat utility mechanics which could be used in a dungeon, and with 4 people it would be hard to design fancy positional dances like in raids.

Well it all depends on how much they are willing alter the design of the dungeon.
They sure could beef up the trash to a point that it has mechanics that need to be dodged, casts that need to be interrupted, mobs that need to be focused down ASAP. Damage increased to the point where healing CDs are mandatory and AoE'ing multiple groups is no longer feasible.

Then they could add additional groups that patrol, so players need caution when entering a room/pulling enemy groups.
They could add environmental dangers as well.

Unfortunately, XIV does not feature reliable crowd control, so that avenue of strategy is off the table.

Of course a 4man dungeon will never be actually hard for seasoned savage raiders.
Ultimately, as you said: design is limited by the # of people available.

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While true, a megathread also isn't an "anything goes" slugfest where a single topic should predominate the conversation to the exclusion of all else. There's an entire subforum for the use of multiple thread topics here - why not create a tanking thread for this conversation, which is obviously a contentious one with many sides, deserving of its own environment?

Of course you are right: we could create specialized threads and discuss such issues in much greater detail.

Looking at the activity of other topics in this forum though, I think most of us just somehow got into the habit of doing all our XIV related exchanges in this Megafred.
I can't even remember the last time I looked at the actual forum, I always just keep this page in the tab. :'D

[Necromantic]

While true, a megathread also isn't an "anything goes" slugfest where a single topic should predominate the conversation to the exclusion of all else. There's an entire subforum for the use of multiple thread topics here - why not create a tanking thread for this conversation, which is obviously a contentious one with many sides, deserving of its own environment?

The thread title is Megathread Final Fantasy XIV. It's not atypical for anyone to construe it as "anything goes" in relation to FFXIV as long as they remain civil. It's very understandable that anyone coming to it or stumbling upon it will view it the same way. The thread is on 2690 pages and the main-focus topic has changed from pages to pages, each in itself has, at some point, predominated the thread... and that's a good thing. It means the thread is active. Trying to stifle attempts at legit conversation do nothing more than dissuade people from participating as a whole because it sets a precedent.

Someone can create another thread for it but just as many of the other sub-topics in this thread alone, they'll fade out once everyone gets everything off their chest. If it's that big of a problem, why not just lock the thread since it's ran it's course since created 11 years ago?

need caution when entering a room/pulling enemy groups.
They could add environmental dangers as well.

I'd vote against adding more trash. That's one appeal this game has vs other MMOs... not as much pointless trash you need to clear. It's a good balance but not so exacerbated. It makes "time to clear" much more manageable, which is one of this game's biggest appeals vs other games. I don't need to reserve a large chunk of time to do things.

[Ghost of Cow]

Yeah, I don't know what a "savage 4-man" would look like, other than boss mechanics being more unforgiving? Bosses are often the easiest part of 4-mans, so why not.

Edit: In other news, my wife made it past ARR. Phew. I was worried there for a while - even with the removed quests it's still so much meh - but she toughed it out. The final sequence seemed to be worth it all, judging by her reaction, at least!

[eschatological]

One thing I never know, because SE doesn't make it very clear until the patch notes are released, is where the new content is going to be, if it isn't going to be listed in the MSQ/role quest tracker. Like, the relic questline is being released tomorrow - I have no clue where I'm gonna have to pick up that quest (which iirc isn't part of MSQ). Anyone have any idea? I imagine Criterion dungeons will have a random unlock side quest too, so who knows where that is.

[Cattleya]

Since the relics are part of Hildibrand's questline, that'll just pick up where it left off (Radz). As for the variant/criterion dungeons, it'll start in either Uldah, Sharlayan or Radz (Uldah because the NPC/dungeon is Uldah-related, Sharlayan/Radz because majority of patch quests start in the expansion's main two hubs)

In general, patch quests usually just start in the two main hubs or where the questline previously stopped (Tribe questlines sometimes starting in their own zone because that's where the pre-req quests end, for example, or the 6.3 alliance raid probably starting in Mor Dhona).

There's always exceptions though, only way to know for sure is either read the patch notes or visit places until you see a new quest.

[Grinning Serpent]

Unless the very dungeon design policy would change, there is very few options to make dungeons harder in this game. With how current dungeon works they can maybe remove most of the UI indicators and make us look what boss model is doing (like in Savage), then maybe to require kick something every minute.

Not much else, XIV does not have many direct combat utility mechanics which could be used in a dungeon, and with 4 people it would be hard to design fancy positional dances like in raids.

That's my feeling, too. Things will hit harder, you will actually die if you stand in the bad, telegraphs will either not exist or will only show why you got hit but will not be there long enough to actually react to, etc.

But with them having largely removed CC from player toolkits ages ago, there's really not much design space they can work with. And as you said, reducing it to 4 man is *guaranteed* to cause issues with a game that is primarily designed and balanced around 8 player groups with specific amounts of different classes and roles (2 melee, 1 caster, 1 archer, etc.) PLD being extremely squishy compared to the other tanks, WAR healing being incredibly overpowered compared to the other tanks (GNB is good and DRK has the usual boatload of TBN bonus HP but WAR's sustain via Bloodwhetting+Thrill with Equilibrium following is insane), MCH DPS being garbage, and so on... it's going to be an issue.

As badly as I always wanted difficult 4-man content, I don't think it's going to go over well if they're trying to tune it like savage. I personally was just hoping for Ex-level 4-man content. But with how Yoshida exaggerates difficulty, maybe that's what we're actually getting.

[eschatological]

LOL, this is why I don't like that FFXIV doesn't have a PTR (at least for non-raid stuff). Didn't even know there was tribal quests being released today.

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Variant dungeons are interesting, I guess. The duty actions they give you make it near impossible to fail, but interesting. Don't know what these currencies they drop are for, I feel like they're Deep Dungeon stuff? Potsherds and Diamonds?

[Granyala]

Tried the Hamster for an hour and gave up. These mechanics are unbelieveably frustrating.

[Grinning Serpent]

LOL, this is why I don't like that FFXIV doesn't have a PTR (at least for non-raid stuff). Didn't even know there was tribal quests being released today.

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Variant dungeons are interesting, I guess. The duty actions they give you make it near impossible to fail, but interesting. Don't know what these currencies they drop are for, I feel like they're Deep Dungeon stuff? Potsherds and Diamonds?

There's vendors for em. According to the datamining I was looking at, the rewards are all cosmetic. Which makes sense and prevents the power creep that WoW has been suffering from since WotLK. But it also means that people will probably do it until they get all the rewards, then never touch it again...

[Aucald]

As a result of feedback from this subforum's Community via post reports and otherwise, the moderation team has reviewed this mega-thread and agrees that it seems to be inhibiting the creation of any new threads and conversations in this subforum, due to its nature as a sort of catch-all for all things Final Fantasy XIV-related. It is effectively the only active thread and therefore requires more heavy-handed moderation to ensure all topics have a chance to be discussed without drowning each other out.

As such, we have decided to close this thread for now and would encourage you to create dedicated threads to drive these different discussions (such as add-ons, tanking, trusts, raids, etc). However, we will be observing traffic in this subforum and, if needed, reopen the mega-thread if the generation of new threads proves lackluster.