[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

I did admit to not having the willpower to finish it. Especially all the way through to the true ending. I only played it because it was a gift, it's not a game I would have bought for myself. The final revelation comes right at the end of the story. I never got beyond the parts where they were just heaping on existentialism.

Same here, I bought it myself with the intention of playing and finishing it. Played for a couple hours and just CBA to keep going. The story just felt so forced to me and the game play got pretty boring pretty fast. It's fast paced, sure, but so was FFXV... I don't mind deep stories with deep meanings in them, but I felt like I was just being pounded over the head with it and it wasn't even that good or fulfilling, I had no real desire to learn more about it. Especially knowing from the beginning that for me to see the "true" ending, I'd have to slog through the game multiple times. Fuck that.

I'm curious how they're going to handle this in FF14. Expecting the players to already know the story of the Nier universe before they set foot in the content is completely and utterly unreasonable. But telling players the story in FF14 spoils the plot of practically an entire series of games - One that players may be interested in after completing the content.

If they're going to advance the Nier story, then it's an issue that has to be dealt with at some point and there doesn't seem to be a good solution. Ignoring it would be like jumping in to watch the final season of Game of Thrones without either reading the books or having watched the show previously. You can enjoy it, but you'd lose a lot of the nuance, subtext and world building that has gone into it. You're missing a key part of the experience.

Will really depend on how they do it. They just did it for the Return to Ivalice raid, and I thought it was done pretty well. I felt like they did a good enough job providing enough context to have it make sense, but not enough details to make you not care about the previous game. If they can do that with the Nier raid, I think it will be fine.

Chakrams man, Chakrams.

IF I was in charge of dev, what I would have done:

1) Machinist wouldn't exist. I would have saved it's thematics for the healer job Chemist.

Agreed, but I'd take it a step further and have made a second gun wielding DPS class aligning with the Admirals usage. Make it the Corsair, maybe Musketeer..I don't know, just not what we ended up with.

2) Blue Mage wouldn't be limited. It would be a legit Casting based Mage Tank (still obv in melee range tho), using a whip as a weapon and enemy skills (learned traditionally via job quests, maybe even very frequently rather than every 5 levels) to bolster/enfeeble. Yeah sure you couldn't get them ALL, but it's how I would have done it.

They could have kept the current iteration of Blue Mage, it already has mandatory spells you need to learn before progressing with the job quests. None of the spells are really THAT OP, and many of the ones that are don't work on bosses anyway. I don't really even see a reason why it's limited other than them not wanting to spend the time needed to balance it. That said, I think they could have easily kept the flavor and feeling of Blue Mage while making it fit into the paradigm of the current game. I agree with the Mage tank part though, that would have been awesome.

3) Gunbreaker would be a melee DPS, an inverse of the RDM gameplay paradigm. The idea would be dual cast would turn into bullet swapping and oGCD usage type of stuff.

100% Agreed.

4) Dancer would be the inverse of BRD. A melee support DPS. Imagine a whirling dervish armed with Chakrams in each hand, bolstering allies and good mobility.

I think that it's ok to reuse some job mechanics if the roles are differentiated enough. Someone once said that my Ret rework in WoW had a little too much overlap with Shadow Priest, but I was ok with that. Shadow Priest and Ret occupy 2 different roles (yes both, dps but ranged vs. melee is like black vs. white).

The idea of a melee version of BRD or RDM isn't a terrible one IMO, especially if you can design other core changes that further distinguish them.

I have to echo your statement that Dancer as a healer FEELS off to me. It's hard to place it, but I would play the shit out of a Chakram wielding whirling dervish of support dps, with very little hesitation.


See above - your thoughts?

I'm a HUGE fan of the concept of melee healing. I truly am, but like @RohanV mentions below there are legitimate concerns. It feels great in small party play where space constraints are non-existent, but in raiding it feels awful, because there are already way too many melee competing for space.

I'd be fine with Dancer being another melee DPS, but feel like the game just has too many DPS as it is. This design would certainly get me playing it. When I said melee healer I didn't necessarily mean it had to be in melee range, I was more referring to how melee DPS in FFXIV play; with combos, positionals, frequently used oGCD abilities, cooldowns, etc..

I just meant that the class would play LIKE a melee class, but be healing instead of doing damage with its abilities. I agree with the placement/ range issue and personally can't stand melee healing range healing styles for the reasons already stated. Therefore, the class would have similar range to current healers, but instead of just pressing a healing button, they'd do a "healing combo."

A thought I had driving to work today was borrowing from the Ninja Mudra concept and instead of having each move do something individually, you'd string together moves and have the finished combo have a different effect based on which order was used. Maybe a bit of both so it's not so GCD and latency dependent, so each move has a minor effect to make it useful by itself, but have the combined effect differ based on the order.

1 = small heal, 2= small HoT (low-sh healing+ short duration), 3 = heal modifier, 4 = shield modifier. 1+2+3 = direct heal + Hot effect with longer duration, 2+1+3 = another small HoT with slightly longer duration + bigger direct heal, 3+2+1 = large direct heal with small HoT, 1+2+4 = adds a decent shield effect to the HoT spell, etc.... Or maybe rather than have a modifier move, you'd have stances that could be changed on the fly (very short cooldown oGCD ability) that would act as the chain modifiers. Or maybe just make it simpler (in comparison) and just have branching combos where you'd have a common starter with multiple abilities to choose from. With AoE combos too to provide AoE healing alongside ST healing. Still spitballing here, would need to spend more time figuring specifics out, but that's the general idea.

Bottom line would be to have the class be a healer, but play like a melee DPS as all melee DPS (or all melee classes really) have a flow in combat, similar to how a Dancer would need to feel flowy and execute moves in a sequence.

#1 reason I am not playing a DRG anymore. I already hate having my performance tied to other people, but add in the clunky macro system, UI, combat engine, and the general limitations of the ability and you get a severe headache at best, god knows at worst. Not only that, but the lack of feedback to even know who to give it to without using third party tools.

Shout out to my DF DRGs who know that I, the PLD am more often than not the best target to give it to. That 2k DPS BLM or BRD isn't worth it, and the 4.5k SMN who MIGHT be, has no desire being in the same zip code, let alone the 12 yalms he needs to be.

That DRG move is pretty awful in execution. Things can get hectic in a fight where there's ground AoE to move away from, or like in the TG Cid fight, where the parties HAVE to split, or random members get forced into separate areas/roles for the fight, having a relatively key ability that requires you to stay close to someone is just ridiculous, coupled with how clunky it is to even execute just makes it an overall horribly implemented move IMO...especiall when the person you mig hwant to use it on is a caster or ranged DPS that should be staying at range anyway, rather than in melee range alongside the DRG.

Oh don't get me wrong, Snow is cool and a welcome addition, but he's no Beatrix/Agrias

Sidebar -

I saw you make a post on the OF (fuck my permaban ). I copied it here below:

You seem to state here very matter of factly that Eureka detractors are nothing more than a very vocal minority. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Has SE published something? The only data I ever saw were general polls that showed a near 50/50 split towards the beginning and a more recent one, that showed a similar split again. IIRC both polls had some odd 6k respondents, so moderately sizeable. Another thing is let me ask you this - do you think Eureka would have been as populated if the Relic was not in it? Do you still believe that the content would be "well received by many" if it didn't offer the relic as a reward?

I'd be interested if you could put together like a pro con list for Eureka so I can better understand your POV.

Like What features of Eureka do you like, and which you didn't. If you can assign a 1-10 (worst-best) point scale to them.

An example (for me):

Pro:

• Zone aesthetics - 6
• Dyeable AF gear - 7

Con:

• Mindless mob/fate grinding - 1
• No level sync - 3

The reason I ask this isn't to attack you or your beliefs, but to try and hone in on why we have such drastically different understandings of the same thing.

EDIT - I just realized the poll I'm thinking off might actually be a BLU poll, either way not intended to be scientific, merely that I don't recall much published data on the topic.

I didn't mind Anemos too much, it was straight forward, easy and pretty mindless, but you had a good idea of what you could earn in a given amount of time so it felt appropriately rewarding in that sense. Yoshi said in a recent interview that it was intended to be a "Time2Win" style area where time spent = rewards. I think it succeeded in that from a design intent perspective anyway.

My main issue with it came with Pagos and how insurmountable it felt to be relevant or welcome there after putting it off for a few weeks. For me to be welcome in Pagos after that amount of time, and therefore begin to actually earn Pagos rewards, I had to be wiling spend even more time in Anemos leveling up to a "suitable" level. Getting to level 25 which was considered "acceptable" to many, and it would take 6+ hours across a couple weeks due to how long it takes to complete the Challenge log and only being able to do the challenge log weekly. Granted, ~6-7 hours isn't THAT much time after how much time I had spent in Anemos already getting to level 20 and beyond, but having to spend any additional time there just felt unreasonable to me, especially since there are other avenues for earning appropriate rewards that I couldn't participate in if I was in Anemos and would take just as much or possible even less time total to earn them.

So that means, because I CBA to go back into the zone to level up because that's what the community is willing to accept, I'll likely never complete the story (which is relevant and I'm intrigued by it), never see the later zones (I still haven't explored Pagos at all, so I'll never see Pyros either or the zone after that) and never get the relic. Which is disappointing. In that sense, I think the design failed because it, unwillingly or not, left players like me behind. It wasn't engaging enough for me to want to play it except for the rewards (not sure if this was intended or not, so can't call it a "fail" but it certainly wasn't great IMO), and the design funneled players into mentalities that required players to play the old content for more time than necessary and not earn worthwhile rewards which disheartened many players into just giving up and never moving into or even seeing the newer content.

If they had made the later zones more accessible and able to be solo'd to a reasonable degree, I think it would have been far more successful simply because the design as it was required you to play with the community and the community adopted such a mentality (not begrudging it, the mentality makes sense) that made it difficult for people to get over that transition from Anemos to Pagos.

[Granyala]

While I don't like gameplay in Eureka as a whole (leveling is atrocious, the train at max level is ok-ish) I do love that they have the courage to try and do something different.

Mobgrind is hardly sth new in MMOs. Oo

[StrawberryZebra]

Well they just did it with Final Fantasy Tactics i dont see Nier getting any different treatment than the "the raid story might be confusing and mean nothing for most players, but for the tactics fans its intended to mean a lot" design ethos they talked about at fan fest during interviews.

They also had a lot in common with FF12 too, which is set in the same universe as FF Tactics. I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume fans of your game are familiar with earlier entries in the series. They've drawn in a lot of elements from across the entire FF series for FF14 already, particularly for raiding content. They've never directly continued the story, but have usually taken places, characters and story elements and remixed them to create something that respects its source material, but also offers a different take on those same themes and ideas.

Continuing the story of another franchise is completely different to borrowing from your own series. Particularly one as overly contrived as Nier.

Yoshi-P is also on record as encouraging people to play other games rather than obsess solely over FFXIV. Which suits me just fine as I enjoy FFXIV quite a bit but also play a lot of single player games when they catch my eye.

I agree with the sentiment. But I don't expect that everyone has played the same games as I have - Nor even that you'd be interested in them. Which is the case we have here, the playerbases for Nier and FF14 aren't one and the same. Attempting to create content for both those groups in one game is a perilous position to put yourself in. It could leave both groups of players disatisfied. Or it could be a run away success, I'm going to withold judgment until I get to play the content, but I'm not too optimistic about it at the moment.

4) Dancer would be the inverse of BRD. A melee support DPS. Imagine a whirling dervish armed with Chakrams in each hand, bolstering allies and good mobility.

Definately an interpretation I could get behind. It shares a lot of what I would consider to be important parts of the jobs core identity - constant and delibarate movement, as well as the more supportive role Dancers have traditionally had in Final Fantasy.

It's a job that's very open to interpretation depending on which kind of dancing is used to form the basis of the Job. A break dancer who beats down fools with headspins and windmill kicks is just as valid as ballroom dancing or line dancing. There's a lot of potential sources that could influence the design.

If they had made the later zones more accessible and able to be solo'd to a reasonable degree, I think it would have been far more successful simply because the design as it was required you to play with the community and the community adopted such a mentality (not begrudging it, the mentality makes sense) that made it difficult for people to get over that transition from Anemos to Pagos.

This is one of my biggest gripes with Eureka. Generally speaking, I prefer to do most open world content solo in MMO's. It lets me go at my own pace and do my own thing without it affecting anyone else. Having to form groups comes with extra commitments and its a headache I'd rather just not deal with anymore. That's not because I'm being deliberately anti-social, but I generally do that kind of content when I've got 30 or so minutes to spend doing it. Having to suddenly drop out or AFK isn't fair on everyone else in my group.

As someone who hasn't done much Eureka at all, I don't consider a Relic weapon to be a strong enough reward for me to participate. As a form of perpetual content it makes sense for developers to put a good reward like that in there so it keeps players hooked, but for me a single weapon for all that work just doesn't seem worth my time. If it was a means of leveling up other jobs, I'd have probably done it for that alone - I'm all for simple grinding as a means of leveling.

Real talk - Dissidia is a shit game. But if they announced Beatrix (or Agrias) I'd buy the game and DLC right now. Nope got Snow instead.

You have no idea how badly I want to see a Dissidia x Guilty Gear crossover. A company like Arc know how to make excelent fighters that respect their source material, and Dissidia is a good license to outsource to a company that actually knows what they're doing.

And I really, really want to see Baiken doing those horrible Baiken things she does to angsty FF characters.

[Faroth]

I haven't played any of the Drakengard/Nier games, but I'm not concerned about being lost. I'm sure it will be integrated and stand alone enough that it will be tooled to fit into the Garlean connected angle for Eorzea to make sense as a stand alone raid story for FFXIV players while offering more Nier-driven connections/Easter eggs/references for Nier fans to get a more robust connection to the story.

I played Tactics when it first came out. I haven't played it since and I didn't play FFXII. I didn't feel lost with the 24 man, but my friends were getting more of a thrill recognizing names and location references. They thought the raid offered a nice epilogue to the original game that offered a little more closure while I found it a fitting self contained Eorzean story as well.

It's not as though they're going to have free reign to do anything whatsoever. Yoshida is still going to have input and will sign off on the final result.

[Graeham II]

@Wrecktangle

At this point in time, Eureka has three separate maps. Next week that will change to four. No matter the hour whenever I visit Anemos, Pagos or Pyros there's a number of players running around the maps. At least on Aether. That is a very strong contrast in regards to Diadem and Lord of Verminion - which both fell flat and barely attract any current interest.

The official forum - and even Reddit - also has a habit of attracting a lot of vocal players. They may very well hate Eureka - but they'll be very vocal about disliking it and claim that it's the worst thing ever. They usually proceed by saying that it's terrible and that nobody likes it - but it's flourishing whenever I visit.

I do agree that it could do with further polish, but relic weapons have always been optional and largely for the sake of bragging rights/glamour.

[dope_danny]

I haven't played any of the Drakengard/Nier games, but I'm not concerned about being lost. I'm sure it will be integrated and stand alone enough that it will be tooled to fit into the Garlean connected angle for Eorzea to make sense as a stand alone raid story for FFXIV players while offering more Nier-driven connections/Easter eggs/references for Nier fans to get a more robust connection to the story.

I played Tactics when it first came out. I haven't played it since and I didn't play FFXII. I didn't feel lost with the 24 man, but my friends were getting more of a thrill recognizing names and location references. They thought the raid offered a nice epilogue to the original game that offered a little more closure while I found it a fitting self contained Eorzean story as well.

It's not as though they're going to have free reign to do anything whatsoever. Yoshida is still going to have input and will sign off on the final result.

A background part to the overall 'taroverse' is a Android called Accord who travels to multiple timelines and the key art doesn't show 2b but 2p, the android taro made up for Soul Calibre, its possible shes not just another model of 2b/e but some cross dimensional bullshit that followed omega.

that and the true ending has the machines and some androids leave earth to find a 'new world' so you never know

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preordered the collectors edition for dat DRK statue as its my tank jerb. this time around i just got a code i entered on PSN that added a early access license to your account that with give the heirloom earrings and a gremlin minion i hadn't seen anything about yet next month. So this time around it should be smoother. I remember the collectors sold out soon and i resorted to a digital collectors edition but that meant i instantly got early access while people who got the physical got kind of screwed.

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Steam page accidentally put up more info early for a few minutes, 3rd zone in Shadowbringers is apparently 'Kholusia, home to the Dwarf beast tribe". Gone now but you know nothing stays forgotten online.

[Faroth]

A background part to the overall 'taroverse' is a Android called Accord who travels to multiple timelines and the key art doesn't show 2b but 2p, the android taro made up for Soul Calibre, its possible shes not just another model of 2b/e but some cross dimensional bullshit that followed omega.

that and the true ending has the machines and some androids leave earth to find a 'new world' so you never know

- - - Updated - - -

preordered the collectors edition for dat DRK statue as its my tank jerb. this time around i just got a code i entered on PSN that added a early access license to your account that with give the heirloom earrings and a gremlin minion i hadn't seen anything about yet next month. So this time around it should be smoother. I remember the collectors sold out soon and i resorted to a digital collectors edition but that meant i instantly got early access while people who got the physical got kind of screwed.

- - - Updated - - -

Steam page accidentally put up more info early for a few minutes, 3rd zone in Shadowbringers is apparently 'Kholusia, home to the Dwarf beast tribe". Gone now but you know nothing stays forgotten online.

Nah, physical edition owners got an early access code and it's good for I think 1 week after launch before you have to enter your physical edition's code to register it. They allow a window for shipping. I've done physical CE on the last two and have played until my physical arrived, registered the code while logged in playing the expansion even.

I will say the cost of the CE is really getting up there, but it's a really nice and detailed looking statue there. Can't complain too much. I've spent $275 on statues before (granted, they were 12 to 18 inches and a polystone material rather than PVC, but still).

[dope_danny]

Nah, physical edition owners got an early access code and it's good for I think 1 week after launch before you have to enter your physical edition's code to register it. They allow a window for shipping. I've done physical CE on the last two and have played until my physical arrived, registered the code while logged in playing the expansion even.

I will say the cost of the CE is really getting up there, but it's a really nice and detailed looking statue there. Can't complain too much. I've spent $275 on statues before (granted, they were 12 to 18 inches and a polystone material rather than PVC, but still).

I'm sure there are people upset its not a Viera DRK though

[Faroth]

I'm sure there are people upset its not a Viera DRK though

they can always buy a Fran Play Arts figure (if they're ever in stock again)

[Katchii]

@Wrecktangle

At this point in time, Eureka has three separate maps. Next week that will change to four. No matter the hour whenever I visit Anemos, Pagos or Pyros there's a number of players running around the maps. At least on Aether. That is a very strong contrast in regards to Diadem and Lord of Verminion - which both fell flat and barely attract any current interest.

The official forum - and even Reddit - also has a habit of attracting a lot of vocal players. They may very well hate Eureka - but they'll be very vocal about disliking it and claim that it's the worst thing ever. They usually proceed by saying that it's terrible and that nobody likes it - but it's flourishing whenever I visit.

I do agree that it could do with further polish, but relic weapons have always been optional and largely for the sake of bragging rights/glamour.

Just because a lot of people are doing it, doesn't mean a lot of people enjoy what they're doing so the fact that it's flourishing whenever you visit there doesn't directly equate to it being well liked, it just means it's decent enough and the reward is good enough to get people to suffer through it.

The issue with Diadem and Lord of Verminion is that the rewards aren't worth the effort, there's not enough incentive to suffer through that content.

[dope_danny]

they can always buy a Fran Play Arts figure (if they're ever in stock again)

Oh knowing SE you bet there's going to be a new Viera of some kind. The buzz they have gotten this year i wouldn't be surprised if they announce a new ivalice set game with a viera protagonist at this rate.

[Granyala]

Wee, thanks to Steams new year event I got 5€ off my SB preorder.
MMO addon for 29.99€.

*chuckles*

[dope_danny]

I think eureka is shit and i loved ff11
afking and grinding with 0 danger of dying until nms spawn is boring

However i dont agere with the sentiment that "open world" content should be soloable. FFXIV has way too much solo content in the first place imo

Sad thing is the open world content that isn't soloable like boss fates isn't relevant. Fates in general seem as forgotten as leves this expansion but back in ARR you had to rush to make sure you got to one before its complete.

and shit i have still never even seen Ixion or proto Ultima out in the world.

[Rogalicus]

FFXIV has way too much solo content in the first place imo

I wouldn't call Beast Tribes and Gold Saucer 'too many solo content'

[Eleccybubb]

I think eureka is shit and i loved ff11
afking and grinding with 0 danger of dying until nms spawn is boring

However i dont agere with the sentiment that "open world" content should be soloable. FFXIV has way too much solo content in the first place imo

To be fair there is open world content that isn't soloable. Most of the current hunts, Treasure Maps, Big boss fates and others.

The relic is fine as a solo experience for the most part because the final stage is never usually out until the raid tier with the current strongest weapon has been out for a while.

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Sad thing is the open world content that isn't soloable like boss fates isn't relevant. Fates in general seem as forgotten as leves this expansion but back in ARR you had to rush to make sure you got to one before its complete.

and shit i have still never even seen Ixion or proto Ultima out in the world.

Really? I've seen loads of Ixions.

[dope_danny]

To be fair there is open world content that isn't soloable. Most of the current hunts, Treasure Maps, Big boss fates and others.

The relic is fine as a solo experience for the most part because the final stage is never usually out until the raid tier with the current strongest weapon has been out for a while.

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Really? I've seen loads of Ixions.

Not. Once. and i've seen Odin countless times at this point.

Always a lalafell name on him of course

[Faroth]

Sad thing is the open world content that isn't soloable like boss fates isn't relevant. Fates in general seem as forgotten as leves this expansion but back in ARR you had to rush to make sure you got to one before its complete.

and shit i have still never even seen Ixion or proto Ultima out in the world.

Wait, proto Ultima is a world Fate like Odin and Ixion now? O_o

[Rogalicus]

+ Trusts now
+ New Game plus

Not even in game yet.

+ squadrons

Very limited.

+ Blue mage 90% of the content is solo, including the weekly challanges

It's one class out of almost 20.

Dont get me wrong there should be place for solo content however i am the opinion it should have nothing to do with the world content which should always be group content

World content is already completely dead, I've hardly seen anyone even in Stormblood zones (minus Rhalgr's Reach and Kugane) while I was leveling. I don't know why you think that forcing grouping on it would somehow revitalize it. I mean I agree that soloing in MMO should be inferior option, but removing it entirely is very short-sighted.

[Eleccybubb]

@Kaito92

I told you so.

[StrawberryZebra]

Dont get me wrong there should be place for solo content however i am the opinion it should have nothing to do with the world content which should always be group content

Have you considered the implications of this kind of design? It would leave you unable to leave a city without being in a group. If there's no one in your level range or interested in doing the same content then you're completely out of luck. New players coming in without friends wouldn't even get out of the starting gate before being turned away.

Just because a game is an MMO doesn't mean you need to be part of a massive group all of the time.

I confess though, I'm curious as to why you'd think it would be in a games best interest to enforce grouping at almost all times?