1. #44141
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Dunno what's with MMO's obsessions with creating classes that are unenjoyable to play before you reach end game.
    It's a problem which is compounded by a lengthy leveling process that, in theory, is supposed to be a tutorial. In practice, the whole thing gets upended when you've one of the most important skills when you complete leveling, not early into it when you're getting started.

    It's why so many people get to max level without knowing how to play their class - They only got the chance to start learning at max level. They've got to unlearn all the bad habits they picked up during leveling and learn how to play the correct way. That takes a lot more time than it does to learn those bad habits to begin with.

  2. #44142
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's a problem which is compounded by a lengthy leveling process that, in theory, is supposed to be a tutorial. In practice, the whole thing gets upended when you've one of the most important skills when you complete leveling, not early into it when you're getting started.

    It's why so many people get to max level without knowing how to play their class - They only got the chance to start learning at max level. They've got to unlearn all the bad habits they picked up during leveling and learn how to play the correct way. That takes a lot more time than it does to learn those bad habits to begin with.
    FF XIV amplifies that effect, esp on secondary classes by constantly putting you into low level content when you level via DF.

    As for the "wowfugee" problematic: never witnessed that.

  3. #44143
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    With post 2.0 that's just it, they weren't thinking. They were new to end game story questing and didn't think about how it would affect people leveling through 1/2/3 expansions later.
    Yeah but god why did they not go back and address it.

    Its so awkward going from getting 25k xp per quest to all of a sudden for no apparent reason getting 4.8k per quest which is something they had to establish after the fact since these quests were originally made at level cap when you were getting 0 xp for them.

    Probably one of the easiest things to address, and they just haven't done it.

    As for the abilities, yes it does get a lot better, you're on the cusp of that, it really takes off post 60. Why it has to happen that way? Just the way it is with mmo's with levels, not a lot you can do to get around it, gotta have some reason to level.
    This isn't really an excuse, have the same issue with wow. Why they would make it so you have no idea how a class plays until you hit level cap and make them unenjoyable while leveling is beyond me. There's really no excuse for it in design as abilities are far from the only form of character progression.

    Like I'm not leveling right now at all because of abilities, I'm leveling to play through content and story. Its a story driven game...

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's a problem which is compounded by a lengthy leveling process that, in theory, is supposed to be a tutorial.
    The thing is leveling takes tremendously longer than a tutorial is meant to last. I've also never played an MMO that actually played like a tutorial while giving you abilities.

    It seems really arbitrary, like its just bad design from a long time ago that none of these games ever learned to grow out of. Especially in regards to dealing with expansions adding abilities and reworking classes.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  4. #44144
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    The thing is leveling takes tremendously longer than a tutorial is meant to last. I've also never played an MMO that actually played like a tutorial while giving you abilities.
    Very few are explicitly a tutorial as such, but the intention was always that you'd learn new skills at a gradual pace so you had plenty of time to get familiar with them, both solo and in group content, before you reached max level. You'd break up the learning curve into small managable chunks for players, so they'd not get overwhelmed by heaping 50+ skills on them at once.

    Players also expect that you can play properly by the time you hit max level too, and the only way to get that hands on experience in game is through leveling.

    I agree that it's bad, outdated design. It doesn't function well as a means of teaching the player at all. It feels restrictive for the players, can get warped and invalidated with class changes and expansions and doesn't actually achieve much but create a hurdle for players to get over before they can get to the "good" parts of the game. At it's worst, it effectively creates two entirely different play experiences, one for players below max level and one for those at max level.

    FF14 suffers with it perhaps more than most with the roulettes. Any time you get synced to a lower level you lose access to what are sometimes critical abilities for your Job to function. It's an awful feeling, and you're not actually getting better with your Job, just reinforcing potentially damaging habits.

  5. #44145
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    FF14 suffers with it perhaps more than most with the roulettes. Any time you get synced to a lower level you lose access to what are sometimes critical abilities for your Job to function. It's an awful feeling, and you're not actually getting better with your Job, just reinforcing potentially damaging habits.
    Yeah I actually loved the downscaling systems at first, but they're growing more and more tiresome as I get higher and higher. I have no idea why they decided to remove your skills instead of just lowering your dmg across the board. Just feels awful, and frankly it would be better for new players to see all the flashy moves other people get later on as a motivator.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  6. #44146
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    I've noticed a fairly significant influx of sprouts on my server (Zalera) ever since the Twitch Prime promo kicked off last week or whenever. Zalera was actually locked for new character creation during primetime here a day or two ago, even though it's listed as a preferred server. Had me thinking that maybe hell froze over.

    Not surprising, all of the current preferred servers for NA will be part of the Crystal DC once that whole split happens. While I don't see it much as of recently, I vividly recall all the "call to arms" for people to transfer to servers that will remain part of Aether, dubbing it the "raid DC". Basically the same mentality that led everyone and their brother to dogpile onto Gilgamesh a couple years ago, but now on a datacenter level.
    i made a new alt this week on one of the preferred servers and it's crazy how many people were running around. reminds me of ARR launch.

  7. #44147
    Had my first major jackass of Stormblood last night as well, though not a WoW name. Instead it was a XIV name... Elidibus. Credit, I suppose, as they were sowing chaos.

    Running Ridorana Lighthouse, this dragoon kept hitting some anime "I'm so powerful" macro and pulling every boss early. They were told to knock it off after the 2nd. We got to the mini boss with all the robots in groups and they did it again. Half the Alliances decided to stay out of the fight and some who were in didn't heal or attack so they never got aggro'd but were in the fight in terms of the lockout. All the robots went back to their starting position and they just hung out with everyone else locked out.

    All the Alliances agreed to wait out the loot timer and that lock out prevented the dragoon from pulling again. It was no secret they were going to be vote dismissed as soon as it was possible.

    So as soon as it WAS possible..... the dragoon popped a vote kick on their tank and with everyone expecting a vote kick for the dragoon they just clicked yes. -_-
    They then immediately vote dismissed the dragoon, but everyone felt sorry for the tank they unintentionally booted.

    Needless to say, the dragoon was reported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    So all the npcs are just living off gov't money in their parents basements? Leeching off society? Damn, that explains a lot....
    All of the scions have retainers who are out stealing walls and roofs from houses to sell, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    The thing is leveling takes tremendously longer than a tutorial is meant to last. I've also never played an MMO that actually played like a tutorial while giving you abilities.

    It seems really arbitrary, like its just bad design from a long time ago that none of these games ever learned to grow out of. Especially in regards to dealing with expansions adding abilities and reworking classes.
    Catch 22 is if you have all your abilities by level 10, people grow bored of having no progression to their character, to which the argument then tends to get thrown around that there should be no leveling whatsoever and that's just a huge can of insanity worms to untangle logistics of.

  8. #44148
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Needless to say, Catch 22 is if you have all your abilities by level 10, people grow bored of having no progression to their character, to which the argument then tends to get thrown around that there should be no leveling whatsoever and that's just a huge can of insanity worms to untangle logistics of.
    That would be the case if abilities were your only form of char progression.

    Also 10 is early but needing to basically get to cap is excessive.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  9. #44149
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    That would be the case if abilities were your only form of char progression.

    Also 10 is early but needing to basically get to cap is excessive.
    "It's been 30/40/50 levels and I still use the exact same skills/abilities/rotation" type of thing is exactly what I'd expect, despite getting bigger stats and gear with bigger stats. It's also a factor of the rework expansions bring. For example, I thought ninja was a lot of fun in Heavensward, but with Stormblood I thought the job was really dull on release day due to the pruning & changes (personally I don't find it much fun at 70 with the changes they made, but that's just me personally). So now someone who starts fresh has to go further to get the final toolkit rather than having them, utilizing them for a year, then adjusting to tweaks and changes, but I'm not sure how you get around that short of the skip potion model.

    There's not really a surefire win. Are there any good examples of progression based games where you have every single skill/ability/power up from early on, though? I can't think of one in the RPG genre. Even most action games have you unlock new skills later in the game. Hard to say what the right balance is from the ground up.

    Maybe at the very least more off GCD should be introduced earlier. Get your main rotation, some off GCD, then your secondary rotation, some final off GCD, and then at cap you're getting more of your "you're going to need these for hard hitting raid type stuff" abilities or a final notably powerful attack sort of thing.

    I'm sure there are classes in game design around this stuff and I certainly haven't taken them.

  10. #44150
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    "It's been 30/40/50 levels and I still use the exact same skills/abilities/rotation" type of thing is exactly what I'd expect, despite getting bigger stats and gear with bigger stats. It's also a factor of the rework expansions bring. For example, I thought ninja was a lot of fun in Heavensward, but with Stormblood I thought the job was really dull on release day due to the pruning & changes (personally I don't find it much fun at 70 with the changes they made, but that's just me personally). So now someone who starts fresh has to go further to get the final toolkit rather than having them, utilizing them for a year, then adjusting to tweaks and changes, but I'm not sure how you get around that short of the skip potion model.

    There's not really a surefire win. Are there any good examples of progression based games where you have every single skill/ability/power up from early on, though? I can't think of one in the RPG genre. Even most action games have you unlock new skills later in the game. Hard to say what the right balance is from the ground up.

    Maybe at the very least more off GCD should be introduced earlier. Get your main rotation, some off GCD, then your secondary rotation, some final off GCD, and then at cap you're getting more of your "you're going to need these for hard hitting raid type stuff" abilities or a final notably powerful attack sort of thing.

    I'm sure there are classes in game design around this stuff and I certainly haven't taken them.
    One of the major complaints with BFA is "why am I leveling, I don't get anything new? I haven't gotten a new ability it 20 levels!" so yea, leveling without ability gain just doesn't work in these type of mmo's.

  11. #44151
    Pandaren Monk Advent's Avatar
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    The only mmo I can think of where you have all of your combat abilities early on is Guild Wars 2, but even that game gets stale while leveling. Though not, imo, as a result of lacking new spells/abilities.

  12. #44152
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Maybe at the very least more off GCD should be introduced earlier. Get your main rotation, some off GCD, then your secondary rotation, some final off GCD, and then at cap you're getting more of your "you're going to need these for hard hitting raid type stuff" abilities or a final notably powerful attack sort of thing.
    MMO's do tend to feel very slow when it comes to doling out new abilities. Especially when you're getting utility skills that are useful later on, but not particularly useful for leveling. You're often left with 3-4 useful buttons until well into level 20, oftentimes later. You've got to push through the boring stages of the game to get to the "good" part.

    On the other end of the spectrum you have a genre like Fighters, they give you everything right from the off and as a result can often feel very overwhelming for new players to the genre. 3D fighters especially can have movelists that span into the hundreds.

    There needs to be a happy medium between the two, one where you've not got to deal with slow, often times broken, class design until you get to level X, but not one that drops hundreds of skills on you at once and expects you to just know which ones to use and when.

    The biggest issue with FF14 is that it locks away important Job mechanics until later on. That's not okay in my opinion. You could, for example, give BLM access to Enochian long before level 56, maybe level 30 for instance when you unlock the Job. That gives you plenty of time to get accustomed to the mechanic before you get Fire/Blizzard 4 later on, and those give you time to familiarise yourself with them before you unlock Foul. That feels like a gradual progression of the mechanic as you level, rather than having it all condensed into the span of 4 levels.

    In exchange, you can move some of the utility skills later on in the progression. Like Convert, which is an ideal skill to be introduced later where the player can better judge how to fit it into their play.

    Even earlier FF titles did similar things with their core mechanics too. FF7 let you have access to the Materia system very early on, then introduced more materia later to expand on the system when you'd had time to play around with it. It gave you the chance to experiment and customise your characters to suit whichever stratergies you could come up with, without ever feeling overwhelming.

    FF8 Unlocked the Junction system before your first mission, FF10 unlocked the Sphere Grid not long after you left Zanarkand, FF12 unlocked the License board shortly into the game etc. You introduce players to the systems and then expand on it naturally as they progress. That's the right way to go about it in my opinion. It keeps the core playstyles intact at almost all levels, while at the same time not being overwhelming.

  13. #44153
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    One of the major complaints with BFA is "why am I leveling, I don't get anything new? I haven't gotten a new ability it 20 levels!" so yea, leveling without ability gain just doesn't work in these type of mmo's.
    Ish? I mean, FFXIV has ranked spells (i.e. stone 1, stone 2, stone 3). each fill the same spot on your hotbars, do slightly more damage than the prior rank, and look more impressive. At the end of the day, doing something like that is better than nothing at all.

  14. #44154
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Ish? I mean, FFXIV has ranked spells (i.e. stone 1, stone 2, stone 3). each fill the same spot on your hotbars, do slightly more damage than the prior rank, and look more impressive. At the end of the day, doing something like that is better than nothing at all.
    They still FEEL like you're getting something. But at the end of the day you can't give lvl 20s all the rotational abilities and then have people be like "oh, i've been doing the same rotation for 50 levels!"

    The best way to do it would be to give more up from oGCDs to at least speed up rotations.

  15. #44155
    I just started a new character and I think it's fine as it is currently. My Archer had a decent rotation by lvl 12 with a buff, dot, proc, finisher, off-gcd filler.

    If they threw too much at you early on, then you end up like current WoW where you literally learn nothing for like the last 30 levels. That just makes leveling feel unrewarding and boring.

  16. #44156
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Needless to say, the dragoon was reported.
    Hmm why? Just kill crap. How is it possible to pull to early anyway, were people afking?

    These days, you can (or rather: are force ported) though the gates, so even if a few members join a little later, a DPS pulling wouldn't be that much of a deal, esp on trash.

    I get that it is obnoxious behavior but I don't see the point of the drama.

  17. #44157
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    I just started a new character and I think it's fine as it is currently. My Archer had a decent rotation by lvl 12 with a buff, dot, proc, finisher, off-gcd filler.

    If they threw too much at you early on, then you end up like current WoW where you literally learn nothing for like the last 30 levels. That just makes leveling feel unrewarding and boring.
    Archer/Bard is actually pretty ok about it. So that's good.

    Anyway, I dunno why people still pretend that "leveling up" is supposed to be some sort of "tutorial". That stuff has never been true. The leveling process is part time sink, part RPG-Purist appeasement.

  18. #44158
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Archer/Bard is actually pretty ok about it. So that's good.

    Anyway, I dunno why people still pretend that "leveling up" is supposed to be some sort of "tutorial". That stuff has never been true. The leveling process is part time sink, part RPG-Purist appeasement.
    I somewhat agree, but part of leveling up and learning new skills is learning how to USE those new skills. Being thrown everything at once can be confusing if you have a lot of skills. Current WoW wouldn't really have that problem, but FFXIV absolutely would. So leveling up while learning the new skills allows you the time to put those new skills to use before you hit end game helps you understand their use and priority, etc... easing you up the learning curve.

    Tutorial may not be the absolute correct term, but for all intents and purposes, IMO it fits.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are Stupid

  19. #44159
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    "It's been 30/40/50 levels and I still use the exact same skills/abilities/rotation" type of thing is exactly what I'd expect, despite getting bigger stats and gear with bigger stats.
    That's exactly my issue though, I'm 57 right now and it still feels like my rotation is almost exactly the same. I'm still waiting for whatever abilities are supposedly supposed to make this feel whole / good.

    As of right now it feels like I've been doing 57 levels of almost the exact same thing with just bloat added for the sake of bloat in order to make up for the long GCD. The abilities themselves don't really do anything to change up the rotation, its just bloat.

    The complete lack of procs really doesn't help with this either, as the rotation is incredibly scripted.

    It's also a factor of the rework expansions bring.
    This is probably the hardest thing to deal with, because with every xpac rework they'd need to rework when you get what a bit to make a job feel good. WoW has had this problem big time.

    But I can't think its not insanely important to do that. If your players are breathing a sight of relief when they cap out because they felt like they had to suffer through leveling then the game has a massive issue. WoW still hasn't learned that lesson even with all the reworking they've done and this game doesn't seem to have either.

    There's not really a surefire win. Are there any good examples of progression based games where you have every single skill/ability/power up from early on, though?
    See there's the thing, I'm not even saying you need to have everything. I'm saying you need to have whatever fills out the kit enough to make it feel good, and then you can add mechanics / depth later.

    Its also just bad design that you have no idea if you're even going to like the class at cap because it plays so differently while leveling. Imagine spending weeks / months getting your char all the way to the end just to find out you freaking hate how it plays now. I imagine most people would sooner drop the game than take that gamble a second time.

    And I think this becomes more and more pronounced as you add xpacs and move that goalpost further and further.

    Maybe at the very least more off GCD should be introduced earlier. Get your main rotation, some off GCD, then your secondary rotation, some final off GCD, and then at cap you're getting more of your "you're going to need these for hard hitting raid type stuff" abilities or a final notably powerful attack sort of thing.
    I think the issue (at least with monk) with that is that the off gcd abilities have incredibly long CD's and don't really add anything to the rotation. They're pretty much entirely there for the sake of giving you an extra button to press inbetween other abilities so that the gameplay isn't so slow. It seems so counter productive to me that they just have all this bloat that really doesn't need to exist seemingly for the sake of it.

    its kind of like the issue the wow devs were saying where they kept adding abilities every xpac because they felt they had to, and FF14 just hasn't learned that lesson yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I somewhat agree, but part of leveling up and learning new skills is learning how to USE those new skills. Being thrown everything at once can be confusing if you have a lot of skills. Current WoW wouldn't really have that problem, but FFXIV absolutely would. So leveling up while learning the new skills allows you the time to put those new skills to use before you hit end game helps you understand their use and priority, etc... easing you up the learning curve.

    Tutorial may not be the absolute correct term, but for all intents and purposes, IMO it fits.
    The issue is the game just gives you skills but never provides the context for which you're supposed to use them, and so you never learn. Simply giving you something spaced out does not a tutorial make.

    Which is why it really isn't a tutorial, its more just not trying to overwhelm someone before they even get started.

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    Any of you guys watch netflix while playing?

    I noticed my game stutters even when I'm getting 120+ fps whenever I have netflix open on my other screen. Doesn't even have to be playing anything, simply having the website up causes this. Which is odd, because I can watch basically anything else and this doesn't happen. Dunno if there's something I can look into to fix it.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  20. #44160
    The Lightbringer dragothica's Avatar
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    What's the general opinion in this game between melee and ranged dps? Which is easier to play in general and which is preferred for example if you try to PUG something?

    I've been leveling to 54 as a BLM but I'm so tempted in trying melee for HW and SB, probably Ninja or Samurai.. Should I roll one or just continue as BLM? (nothing wrong with the job really, it's just that you can respec into any other job so I'm considering rolling another one at this point would be useful)

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