1. #44581
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    I agree on the rest of your post though, if the game has some buff or debuff you are expected to maintain 100% of the time, what's even the point?
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.

    Obviously that example relies on other core class mechanics to make it work, but having those mechanics tied to an important buff makes it an interesting and crucial part of your gameplay. Simple maintainance buffs/debuffs can be an important part of the overall package.

    The problem FF14 has is that not many of it's Jobs have their own unique mechanics, most usually have unique gimicks, but not actual mechanical differences. The only way they can really add these kinds of buffs is as "Press this button once every 30 seconds" type skills. That doesn't make for an interesting decision regarding how you're going to allocate your resources the same way Combo Points and Energy do, it reduces the play around the ability to pressing it pre-determined intervals.

  2. #44582
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTharne View Post
    To create a dps gap between people who maintain it and the ones who don't ?
    While a fair point, if that's the ONLY reason, that's a pretty terrible reason IMO. If they have to have something like this for whatever reason, at least make it interesting to use. As it is now, it's an annoying upkeep type of ability that only ever gets used to keep the buff up, that's not interesting or fun IMO. The effect and positional requirement could easily be baked into Vorpal Thrust or Heavy Thrust and game play would hardly change at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Probably balancing reasons.
    Classes are ridiculously similar in this game (like every class has a +% you need to keep up, every class has some kind of DoT etc... and that makes it easier to balance.
    This may be a stupid question, but why couldn't they just balance a class around NOT having something like that to upkeep? Or would that just skew the DPS because that class would outperform everything else because of it's lack of upkeep, because it's "easier" than the others that do have an upkeep mechanic?

    I really do hope SE gets away from that style of class design, everything is far too similar. The only two I ever felt stood out as a bit different were RDM and SAM. RDM has no upkeep mechanic of any kind and SAM upkeep flows naturally as you do your rotation. Everything else requires you to pay attention and use an ability or skill chain you wouldn't normally use to maintain a buff/debuff.

    The classes still feel fine, it's just so obvious how similar they are in their design with these maintenance/upkeep mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    I really hope RDM is the standard to which they make future classes (at least from a DPS perspective). In terms of damage rotation. It's the right amount of rotation + randomness, with a satisfying set of finishers that don't take two minutes to set up.
    Agreed, I just really like how straight forward it is to play and how much utility it has. The dualcast mechanic just clicked with me and I love it. I can't even count how many wipes I've prevented or clutch saves I've done with RDM and it's heals and resurrection along with it's Mana Shift ability to give healers mana as they get rezzed. Plus, I really like their aesthetic.


    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.

    Obviously that example relies on other core class mechanics to make it work, but having those mechanics tied to an important buff makes it an interesting and crucial part of your gameplay. Simple maintainance buffs/debuffs can be an important part of the overall package.

    The problem FF14 has is that not many of it's Jobs have their own unique mechanics, most usually have unique gimicks, but not actual mechanical differences. The only way they can really add these kinds of buffs is as "Press this button once every 30 seconds" type skills. That doesn't make for an interesting decision regarding how you're going to allocate your resources the same way Combo Points and Energy do, it reduces the play around the ability to pressing it pre-determined intervals.
    Agreed on all accounts, just want to add I think the other problem FFXIV has is that too many of the classes have the same mechanic. It doesn't even feel different between classes.

    Having a buff to maintain is fine, it CAN be part of the core class mechanics, but not THE core class mechanic. However, having the buff/debuff be applied by a single button press that does nothing else is pretty boring. Your Rogue example is a good one, because it's a decision: spend combo points on buff refresh/maintenance or spend on another finisher? In FFXIV, some classes have the buff maintained by a combo, which isn't bad either, but if that's the only reason you ever do the combo, IMO, it's just a longer button press, it's not really a decision (insofar as the decision is binary: have DPS drop or put up the buff...the answer is obvious) and therefore uninteresting or fun, it FEELS like maintenance.

    Samurai does it well I think, because the buffs/debuffs you maintain are applied naturally as you do your combos to build for the big hit (forget what the points and sword draw ability is called), so eve though you're maintaining them, it's not cumbersome and doesn't disrupt the flow of the class game play.

    Again though, I don't think it would feel so bad if not every DPS class had something like this, but almost all do, with RDM being the only exception.

  3. #44583
    Boy the credits to the MSQ rolled real early this time, but the final shot makes me wonder Is he actually crazy, like multiple personality crazy?
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  4. #44584
    Has anyone else put themselves on the waiting list for the Shadowbringers Physical Collector's Edition for PC? Been on it a couple weeks and am just wondering if anyone did it earlier and been notified of additional stock. Getting a bit anxious at this point since I haven't seen anything online or on the store page regarding replenishment happening at a certain time. I know there's plenty of time...just getting excited and want to have it ordered ASAP.

    I know they're working on it, or at least assuming they are because this happened last year. I just haven't heard anything.

  5. #44585
    High Overlord Graeham II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Boy the credits to the MSQ rolled real early this time, but the final shot makes me wonder Is he actually crazy, like multiple personality crazy?
    He's likely being possessed by Solus to sow the seeds of chaos against his will.

  6. #44586
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham II View Post
    He's likely being possessed by Solus to sow the seeds of chaos against his will.
    Tinfoil hat theory: The Garlean flag is one big joke, with two black things closing in around a white one its the third eye representing the puppet on the throne and the ascians around them, but in this case its more literal with the two bodyguards whispering in his ear like Xorne and Thorne in FFIX
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  7. #44587
    Hildi : It was me, Greg!

    MSQ : What is truly behind the mind of Creepy Daddy ? And ma boi Real!Zenos will stall Garlemald during our travel to the first shard, The Truest of Bro right here.
    Last edited by MrTharne; 2019-03-26 at 06:26 PM.

  8. #44588
    Yeah after the credits i was like "oh, they DID remember him!"
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  9. #44589
    MSQ The ending of SB was anticlimatic and disappointing to say the least and we got nothing for the how or the why we're going to the 1st.

  10. #44590
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    MSQ The ending of SB was anticlimatic and disappointing to say the least and we got nothing for the how or the why we're going to the 1st.
    I may be remembering incorrectly, but I don't remember us (as the player character) knowing we'd be heading to Doma after Heavensward. All signs pointed to Ala Mhigo. The story may have hinted we MIGHT go there with the story with Gosetsu and Yugiri, but nothing in stone. The only reason we really knew about it was because of information being circulated about Stormblood showing us we would certainly go to Doma, but the MSQ didn't bring up us going to Doma until a little ways into the Stormblood MSQ. Again, as I remember it.

  11. #44591
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    MSQ The ending of SB was anticlimatic and disappointing to say the least and we got nothing for the how or the why we're going to the 1st.
    I think thats why this one felt so short. In the last two there was an undetermined amount of time between turning the last quest in and when you got to ishgard or the war to free ala mihgo or sail to kugane began. By the looks of things Stormblood ends and you are straight up outside the location searching for the maguffin to 'throw wide the gates' immediately. Considering where we are going and how we are story wise going to be very separate from home this is the only way to do it and still have your character bumming around Eorzea for 3 months. In the future though its probably going to feel a lot more fluid while as time goes on i imagine going from ARR to HW must feel a lot more like a time skip or fast forward by comparison.
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  12. #44592
    Bloodsail Admiral Gutler's Avatar
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    So apparently the FFXV event stuff has been datamined and the regalia is going to cost 200k MGP.

    Sig by Elyssia "When you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

  13. #44593
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.

    Obviously that example relies on other core class mechanics to make it work, but having those mechanics tied to an important buff makes it an interesting and crucial part of your gameplay. Simple maintainance buffs/debuffs can be an important part of the overall package.

    The problem FF14 has is that not many of it's Jobs have their own unique mechanics, most usually have unique gimicks, but not actual mechanical differences. The only way they can really add these kinds of buffs is as "Press this button once every 30 seconds" type skills. That doesn't make for an interesting decision regarding how you're going to allocate your resources the same way Combo Points and Energy do, it reduces the play around the ability to pressing it pre-determined intervals.
    Also @Katchii

    Speaking personally - I don't really think anything that qualifies as a maintenance buff as good design. Even if there's a binary choice associated. I look at something like DRG and I see Heavy Thrust. This is a pointless button. We all agree there, but there's still so much room for improvement (if the goal is engagement/depth). Jumps shouldn't be just bland DPS buttons to press on CD. Not only that, they should be used much more frequently and there should be methods to accrue, save, or dump them as necessary. That should be the DRGs main focus. Look at BotD. It doesn't even need to be a button anymore. Just make it a passive in combat.

    I could go on, but the issue IMO is that it all stems back to encounter design. You can design jobs with more decision points/trees, but if encounters never utilize them, they're irrelevant (see half of each jobs kit). I honestly think the game needs a shift in design where the mechanics are much more varied and frequent with lower stakes.

    Pushing a button should always allow you to do something you couldn't otherwise. Unlocking skills/abilities, resource management, utility/mobility. If it's a pointless number change that you cannot feel, it's a pointless button IMO.

  14. #44594
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Mine is currently only in the 40's, and the job is absolutely awful to play. I've never held "it gets better at end game" to be a reasonable argument in it's favour - Having to slog through a broken mess to get to the "good" part of a job is just terrible for the player.
    Tbf as much as I enjoy FFXIV that is 90% of the game for every Job. SAM and RDM were only a bit better since they start at 50 thus have already got some of their core abilties. I find the only Classes that don't feel like a trainwreck Pre-50/60ish is AST, WHM and to some extent MNK.

  15. #44595
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    MSQ The ending of SB was anticlimatic and disappointing to say the least and we got nothing for the how or the why we're going to the 1st.
    Honestly, I was surprised how short it was for the finale and yes, how anticlimactic it felt compared to past ones. This feeling is amplified by the tone the trailer set.

    (Going to put the whole thing in spoilers since this main thread still has some players noting they're still experiencing all expansion stories)

    Think back:

    A Realm Reborn: Final MSQ we are just totally broken. We lose everything we've built up and we're branded as assassins. We flee to Ishgard alongside Tataru and Alphinaud.
    Heavensward Trailer: Depicts that MSQ in snippets and starts with the long, sullen trudge through the snow into Ishgard. We see how crestfallen Alphinaud and Tataru look and the Warrior of Light is shown to be angry in Ul'dah and rather sullen going into Ishgard.

    Heavensward: Final MSQ is disastrous with the Eorzean Alliance yanked into a war they weren't prepared to wage thanks to the Griffon, but ready and willing to commit to the liberation of Ala Mhigo. We were marching in from a position of strength after ARR ended at a place of weakness.
    Stormblood Trailer: Warrior of Light and (we now know Lyse) train atop the giant statue as the rebellion prepares for war below. We're then shown the battle will extend across the world to the far east.

    With the Shadowbringers trailer, we did see the Stormblood showdown of the Warrior of Light fighting Zenos, but with the Warrior of Light seeming so haggard and exhausted, the barren landscape, and the gremlin taunting him, I was expecting a little more of a "all seems lost" MSQ conclusion putting us more in that situation. Of course, if we're going to The First, that's hard to put in place pre-expansion. I guess I was expecting something more akin to A Realm Reborn's ending with a really weighted climax to take us so low in the trailer.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Tbf as much as I enjoy FFXIV that is 90% of the game for every Job. SAM and RDM were only a bit better since they start at 50 thus have already got some of their core abilties. I find the only Classes that don't feel like a trainwreck Pre-50/60ish is AST, WHM and to some extent MNK.
    I felt NIN was a well done gradual build. They never felt like they were particularly lacking and the expanding toolset felt more natural and enjoyable. At least from ARR through HW. I feel like the ability prune and the new SB abilities were extremely disappointing. I hope they get some of the ninjutsu we've seen other shinobi using.



    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2019-03-27 at 01:41 PM.

  16. #44596
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post

    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Given the trailer i imagine storywise we are stuck on the First with the scions either in the bodies of their first world counterparts or actually interacting with those like a Gunbreaker Thancred and BLM 'Matoya' while characters like Cid and the Scions back home deal with the black rose situation and probably get some unwanted/expected help from Elezenos who sees killing a lot of empire soldiers as a way to home his skills in his new body while helping his 'friend' in a 'gotta catch up or they will leave me behind' vegeta kind of way. Or going wakes the main scions up and you fall into a coma and they are playable using the new system at intervals in the MSQ going 'meanwhile, back on the 14th'
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  17. #44597
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Also @Katchii

    Speaking personally - I don't really think anything that qualifies as a maintenance buff as good design. Even if there's a binary choice associated. I look at something like DRG and I see Heavy Thrust. This is a pointless button. We all agree there, but there's still so much room for improvement (if the goal is engagement/depth). Jumps shouldn't be just bland DPS buttons to press on CD. Not only that, they should be used much more frequently and there should be methods to accrue, save, or dump them as necessary. That should be the DRGs main focus. Look at BotD. It doesn't even need to be a button anymore. Just make it a passive in combat.

    I could go on, but the issue IMO is that it all stems back to encounter design. You can design jobs with more decision points/trees, but if encounters never utilize them, they're irrelevant (see half of each jobs kit). I honestly think the game needs a shift in design where the mechanics are much more varied and frequent with lower stakes.

    Pushing a button should always allow you to do something you couldn't otherwise. Unlocking skills/abilities, resource management, utility/mobility. If it's a pointless number change that you cannot feel, it's a pointless button IMO.
    Some classes are simply built around these kinds of things though. If it's not simply a buff/debuff it's a DoT that you have to maintain. I agree that it shouldn't just be a button to press to maintain it, so I agree on that point, but I don't take issue with maintaining a buff/debuff as a concept.

    As you said, I think the biggest issue is how the encounters are designed. If core job mechanics can't be effectively utilized, or (like in my case) people stop using their favorite class because of how that class mechanic just doesn't really mesh well with how encounters are designed, that's a bad thing.

  18. #44598
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Honestly I'd prefer if they were effeminate (relatively) speaking male, not because of any fetish but because it'd be a better contrast to typical stereotype. Like Granyala said, a reverse to the Au Ra would be more unique as opposed to more of the same.
    Now I am envisioning Having these tall, serious as a heart attack, female Viera, and these miniscule, hyper-energetic, overly carefree, chibi bunny boys. It'll probably not go that way.

    I'm thinking more likely it'll be something like This Guy but with bunny ears.

  19. #44599
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Honestly, I was surprised how short it was for the finale and yes, how anticlimactic it felt compared to past ones. This feeling is amplified by the tone the trailer set.

    (Going to put the whole thing in spoilers since this main thread still has some players noting they're still experiencing all expansion stories)

    Think back:

    A Realm Reborn: Final MSQ we are just totally broken. We lose everything we've built up and we're branded as assassins. We flee to Ishgard alongside Tataru and Alphinaud.
    Heavensward Trailer: Depicts that MSQ in snippets and starts with the long, sullen trudge through the snow into Ishgard. We see how crestfallen Alphinaud and Tataru look and the Warrior of Light is shown to be angry in Ul'dah and rather sullen going into Ishgard.

    Heavensward: Final MSQ is disastrous with the Eorzean Alliance yanked into a war they weren't prepared to wage thanks to the Griffon, but ready and willing to commit to the liberation of Ala Mhigo. We were marching in from a position of strength after ARR ended at a place of weakness.
    Stormblood Trailer: Warrior of Light and (we now know Lyse) train atop the giant statue as the rebellion prepares for war below. We're then shown the battle will extend across the world to the far east.

    With the Shadowbringers trailer, we did see the Stormblood showdown of the Warrior of Light fighting Zenos, but with the Warrior of Light seeming so haggard and exhausted, the barren landscape, and the gremlin taunting him, I was expecting a little more of a "all seems lost" MSQ conclusion putting us more in that situation. Of course, if we're going to The First, that's hard to put in place pre-expansion. I guess I was expecting something more akin to A Realm Reborn's ending with a really weighted climax to take us so low in the trailer.


    - - - Updated - - -



    I felt NIN was a well done gradual build. They never felt like they were particularly lacking and the expanding toolset felt more natural and enjoyable. At least from ARR through HW. I feel like the ability prune and the new SB abilities were extremely disappointing. I hope they get some of the ninjutsu we've seen other shinobi using.



    That brings a thought.... I wonder if we'll be able to freely move from The First to The Source in Shadowbringers or if the story will be more akin to WoW's Warlords where, for a time, we're stuck on one side. If so, will we meet job users of The First and we'll learn new skills from them or will we be able to move freely between the two via the Crystal Tower and we'll continue training with job quests from Eorzea. Hmmm.
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Given the trailer i imagine storywise we are stuck on the First with the scions either in the bodies of their first world counterparts or actually interacting with those like a Gunbreaker Thancred and BLM 'Matoya' while characters like Cid and the Scions back home deal with the black rose situation and probably get some unwanted/expected help from Elezenos who sees killing a lot of empire soldiers as a way to home his skills in his new body while helping his 'friend' in a 'gotta catch up or they will leave me behind' vegeta kind of way. Or going wakes the main scions up and you fall into a coma and they are playable using the new system at intervals in the MSQ going 'meanwhile, back on the 14th'
    I have a feeling it's going to be very Warlords-ish in that you're stuck there for a certain period of time until you progress far enough in the MSQ. If that's the case I doubt it would be a lengthy period of time at all, just long enough to acclimate to the new surroundings and familiarize yourself with whatever power/item/beacon you're using to traverse the space between worlds. That hooded guy at the end of the Stormblood MSQ will likely be involved very early and will accommodate this transition pretty quickly.

  20. #44600
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    There can be some interesting play in these types of things. Like a WoW Rogues Slice and Dice (Or roll the bones, whatever it is now) buff, where the play is in keeping the buff running while also using your combo points on your other finishers. That creates an interesting dynamic, where you've got to decide if you've got enough time to build combo points for another finisher, should pool your energy and wait for your current Slice and Dice to run out to recast, or as in previous expansions, use a finisher with less than 5 points so as not to waste your combo points.
    The thing is, Slice and Dice itself is not interesting part of it, managing multiple resources is. I'd be fine with something like this if there were at least several buffs you had to choose from (like warlock curses or shaman totems, but better balanced between each other).
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

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