1. #43561
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    A friend of mine just started playing a couple days ago, and in walking him through some of the basics he sent me a picture of his UI and I sent him a picture of mine so he could get an idea of what you could do with it and I could help him update his.

    Before we even got to working on the UI, he commented on just how many abilities I have on my hotbars...of which I have 3 JUST for abilities used for the class I'm playing. I was on my Dragoon, which is only 63, so not even max level and I only have 4 open slots on my set of 36. And I use 26 of them consistently, with the rest being one-off uses, like the limit break button, goad, and the other cross-role actions.

    I have an MMO mouse and a gaming keypad, so the number of keybinds isn't a problem for me, I can use up to 48 without much of an issue. My friend on the other hand has a regular mouse and is playing on a laptop, so I'm not sure how exactly he'll be able to comfortably play ANY of the classes in this game. I remember before getting my mouse and keypad, in WoW, I had issues using more than ~15 because of how I prefer my movement keys to be bound and how I needed to contort my hand to reach some of the keys. I ended up getting ergonomic injuries from it which is why I have the MMO mouse and keypad now.

    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game.



    Yeah the MSQ in this patch was disappointingly short and not very informative, at least for those who paid attention to Tokyo Fan Fest. All of the content added in this patch can be cleared in a couple hours.
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually

  2. #43562
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Comtrollers are actually easy as all hell

    I set it up so i only swap between bars 1 and 2 with a click. That is apready 48 skills

    I then go w or another trick where you can have a bar setup to appear when you hold l2 and r2 or vice versa..i tie my upper bars to my third bar(pet for smn) and bam all skills(ok pre role skill rework) ready to go with spare spaces(another 24) soo yeah not bad at all since i just double tap for the w bar stuff.

    It may be even better the mouse and keyboard actually
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.

  3. #43563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    On a PS4 that sounds great. On a PC that does sounds pretty amazing too, but still requires the purchase of a controller, and I wouldn't recommend getting a cheap one if you're going to be playing for long periods of time (I have a cheap controller, they suck). Was kind of alluding to the idea that for people to play FFXIV optimally, it's practically impossible to do it natively on a PC (just regular mouse and keyboard) without buying some kind of peripheral.

    That said, my friend owns a PS4 and therefore has a PS4 controller he could use on PC. I'll recommend that to him and see what he thinks.
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)

  4. #43564
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ahhh i gotcha. Yeeah i am a big console gamer and prefer controllers sooo i had them already and yeah i know how much the cheap ones suck.

    Though this brings up an interesting question..could it be if done RIGHT mmos with a crazy large number of skills are better on a controller then mouse and keyboard despite the often believed idea of needing to simplify?

    I mean i can easily get 3+ action bars setup for easy use with 2 visible at all times(btw on non smn i use my upper bar to keep track of buffs/timed skills so that i can always see them)
    I mean... I use a keyboard and a regular, non-gaming mouse without buttons and I have 25 binds with 1 or more role action bound across all jobs, and I do just fine. I click the odd things that aren't important/reaction, like BRD MP/TP regen. It's all about how you craft your UI, how you keybind it and use the same keybinds for memory, and how you make the things you have to see easily seen, while hiding the clutter. The idea that it's "practically impossible" to play without a controller or a gaming mouse is just ridiculous. For reference, my BRD has 20 active and my DRG has 23, role actions taking up a few unused. I remember all of the binds to the many jobs I play and I play them in savage.

    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    Last edited by La; 2019-03-31 at 04:51 AM.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  5. #43565
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    I just don't like abilities that don't do much.
    A 10% damage buff you have to keep up just to have sth. to keep up is one of these things, esp if the button stands outside of any rotation and constantly interrupts the flow of the class.
    Same goes for having a gazillion little cooldowns that all do the same thing. Boring.

  6. #43566
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    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.

  7. #43567
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Not having any strong Job mechanics also presents a huge hurdle too. It means the choice to keep your buff up is purely decorative - There's almost never a situation where refreshing is the wrong call. The opportunity cost is just one GCD, so it's almost never a waste the way it would be if you burned 5 Combo Points on a Slice and Dice and the boss died 5 seconds later. Not having an actual resource cost or requiring job mechanics prevents it from ever being a meaningful choice.

    At this point however the problems have been baked in as part of the jobs themselves. To fix it and allow self buffs/debuffs to be engaging would require a complete overhaul almost from the ground up for most Jobs. As much as I would like to see it happen, I can see Squenix brushing it under the rug as being too much hard work, and the longer they leave it the harder it will get.
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The sheer number of abilities this game has is ridiculous, and completely unnecessary. How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV. That tells me they need to change something about class design and ability usage, if people without those kinds of peripherals aren't able to effectively play the game..
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.

  8. #43568
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Make crusader stance less useless please SQEX.
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.

  9. #43569
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Until you get into savage.
    I only click stuff with CDs > 60s but even that can get annoying fast in heavy movement encounters.


    This is my Hotbar, the only 2 buttons on it that I press Manually are Limit Break and Sprint. Both so I don't fat finger them mid combat.

  10. #43570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Is that the "beefs up autohit damage" one from PLD?
    Imho what I want to see is tank stances getting taken off the GCD.
    Oh right, it's cleric stance in english, that thing.

  11. #43571
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    They have been slowly working towards changing Jobs to have Self-Buffs be a lot more useful, thus punishing to DPS if used incorrectly. Samurai have quite a few different buttons which very easily separate good SAMs from bad SAMs. Much of their proper Rotation also requires good positioning to maximise Kenki to allow you to Buff certain moves throughout combat.
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  12. #43572
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    AFAIK it's as interesting as "buff your 1 and 3 symbol abilities and then spend excess Kenki on direct damage". And all melee have positionals, though it's one of the first things I would have dropped from the game.
    That's how most WoW classes work as well. it's not a bad thing. and most classes have an ability or 2 they have to actively keep an eye on.

  13. #43573
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    How do people without a controller or specific gaming peripherals play this game? (not rhetorical, if you play without a gaming peripheral, just normal mouse and keyboard, how do you d it?) IMO, from my experience, they're almost required for FFXIV.
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And that is the core of the issue I think, we've been working around bad design for years. Not everyone has the skills or ability to work around fewer keybinds and still perform optimally. But that shouldn't be a fall back option, performing sub optimally because people simply can't feasibly access the class abilities is unacceptable.
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    That's not to say I don't think the game has or doesn't have too many abilities for some classes, or some could be baked into other abilities, but I have also played WoW, which means I understand the importance of having too few abilities, too. Maybe it can easily be overwhelming for newer players, but you slowly learn as you level your abilities to comfortably learn your rotations and binds. So..why is that a bad thing? It gives you reason to improve, to do better, or you just..don't.
    The issue with this line of thought is the order which you learn abilities. Very often you're going to get important game changing ones 55+ levels into the game, at which point you've already gotten comfortable with your existing keybinds and rotations and have spent tens of hours building up the muscle memory.

    Having to relearn your Job and your Binds every 6-10 levels makes for a very disjointed experience, and punishes you for getting familiar with your Job rather than rewards you. You can't really learn your jobs core mechanics because most just don't have one defining set and rely instead on universal game mechanics.

    On the subject of WoW, I think it lands in that sweet spot of having about the right number of abilities. I can fit them on on 2 hotbars, and have the extra bar at the side for things like Mounts, Healthstones, Hearthstone and so on. At the same time, almost all of the abilities you have tend to be multi-purpose and play off each other in a way that FF14's combos just don't.

    For the record, I'm playing a Paladin. I don't feel as though any of the skills I have are useless in any form or capacity, I do feel as though my Class is limited in some areas but that it was an intentional choice rather than developer forgetfulness. I'm not sure if the same is true for other classes, but honestly, I think Blizzard have done a pretty solid job all in all. A smaller set of quality abilities is far more preferable than a broader set of situational ones to me.

  14. #43574
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    I play all Jobs effectively using just a Normal Keyboard and a Mouse that has MB4/5. Also being such a long GCD, I think a lot of people are entirely comfortable with just clicking.
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Personally, I use ` to 6, QERT, FG, \ZXC as well as the 2 side buttons on my mouse for keybinds. Then I use Shift, Ctrl and Alt and the previous keys to bind pretty much everything I need. I do click things that get used out of combat exclusively, like Mounting, Teleport and so on to save on binds. I can't say if it'll work for everyone else, but those have worked for me across most MMO's I've played.

    I have occasionally played with my Street Fighter arcade stick just for the funnies. It wasn't awful, but it was still very lacking compared to a Keyboard and Mouse. I expect that regular controllers wouldn't have the same problems however, having a Right Stick makes navigating a 3D world much easier.

    Though with FF14 I've got like... 6 (?) different hotbars over the screen to hold everything I'm going to need to use. Along with the cluttered Party and Raid UI, as well as Job Gauges and other large UI elements, it doesn't leave a whole lot of space free for actually seeing what's going on around me.
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.

    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    Agreed, abilities like this are great, but the UI hinders their usability a lot.

  15. #43575
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Hmm I generally use 1-5, Q, E, R and my 7 mouse buttons. If that isn't enough I get annoyed.
    As I said: CDs with > 60s are simply clicked on.

  16. #43576
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.
    Like I said and posted in a previous post, I have 25+ abilities Keybound with a normal KB and M. Even if I didn't have MB 4/5 I'd still be able to Keybind I'd just need to use some extra Keyboard keys instead.

    Keybinding isn't really hard even without an MMO mouse. I own a g600 and choose not to use it because it feels worse than my current setup.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    One of the other major things I dislike are abilities that you cast on a friendly target if you're not a healer. Ones like Goad, Palisade and such. Having to manually click on your target, press the button, then click back on your DPS target is a huge usability hurdle.

    I don't think those are bad abilities per se, but they're hamstrung by the UI. Not being able to use an addon, or even functional mouseover macros, makes it a tough one to solve. Having an ability that's just too clunky to use is far more irritating than having filler skills in my opinion - You can ignore a bad skill, but a good skill that's awkward to use is much harder to just overlook. Needing workarounds for core Job skills is a design failure in my book.
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.

  17. #43577
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I used to play MMOs with no peripherals, because I didn't feel like spending the money. Then, after a heavy raiding season in WoW I ended up going to the doctor because my wrist, pinky and thumb on my left hand had repetitive stress injuries from all the gymnastics they had to do to hit the keys, hold down modifiers, and turn to allow fingers access to the right key.

    I 100% advocate that heavy MMO gamers should invest in these kinds of peripherals because of what happened to me. Two ~$80 peripherals are more than worth it if it means I don't have to deal with pain in my hand, pay for doctors visits, pain meds or a brace AND get increased performance in games. But most MMOs that I've played don't require you to have the peripherals to play optimally, it's just a bonus, and prevents injury. In FFXIV, there's just no way I could play it without the peripherals I have, at least not at a level that I am comfortable with.
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?

    If I need to press something that requires me to take my fingers off the movement keys I'll either stand still or else use the mouse to move while I press it. Otherwise I'll adjust my hand on the keyboard for a couple of seconds so it's not uncomfortable. I find that adjusting my hand position comes quite naturally - Quite possiably from a combination of years both playing the guitar and doing Ju Jitsu. Moving my arm in/outwards at the elbow and shoulder or moving my entire hand down a row of keys is a fast, automatic response for me at this point.

    My hands are large enough that I can hit Shift and Ctrl with my Ring finger, the hotkey with my Index and usually the movement key with my middle finger without stretching nor putting pressure on my wrist. Alt I usually do with my thumb and the hotkey with either my Ring or Index. I move my hand mostly with my arm movement rather than the wrist. I never have to turn or twist my wrist to reach the keybinds, nor do I need to twist my entire arm into uncomfortable positions.

    I've been quite lucky in that I know how my body moves and how to work with it so I don't injure myself. The most discomfort I've ever had while gaming has been sweaty controllers. Thankfully that one requires a cloth and perhaps a break, not advice from a trained proffesional.

    That being said, like you, I would encourage anyone who does have discomfort or pain while gaming to invest in some new peripherals too. I've got 3 gaming controllers on my desk in front of me right now - And a steering wheel one boxed up behind me. Well made peripherals tend to really last too, so while the initial investment can look expensive, remember that you're going to get a lot of practical use out of it and be preventing yourself from getting an injury.

    Even minor discomfort should be a warning sign, no matter how small. An aching finger isn't going to get better if you keep doing the same thing over and over with it. If it keeps happening then you need to make changes before you start injuring yourself for real.

  18. #43578
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    This I agree on 100%. Even basic Macros would make this game 10x better from a raiding PoV. I mostly forego Goad, etc unless really required.
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I can't say I've ever run into uncomfortable, hand twisting situations like you seem to have. I would assume that it was a problem for a long while before it developed into full blown RSI?
    Same. 9 yrs of raiding and I never needed, nor felt the need to use specialized peripherials. But then again I always only bind core abilities and click the ones that are more rarely used, so no finger gymnastics necessary.

    If you think computer keyboards are bad... don't try the piano or a guitar.

  19. #43579
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Umm you do have macros, you can very easily create a targeting macro (typically it's always the same person that needs stuff like goad anyway). My raiding buddies do it all the time.

    Personally, I think one does not have to be THAT obsessed with DPS uptime in order not to use a ability. I mean, come on, the GCD is friggin 2.5 seconds, how long do you need to target/cast/retarget?!

    As a healer, I do it all the time, if I would need more than a GCD for that I would be a pretty crappy healer
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.

  20. #43580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm sure people can play the jobs effectively enough to get by (not trying to imply you're just getting by). I just have a hard time believing that someone with a regular mouse and keyboard is able to play a class that has ~25+ abilities that are used regularly OPTIMALLY from both a gameplay perspective, but also ergonomic perspective.

    I don't doubt that people will "get by" well enough to enjoy the game with just a regular M+KB, but I also don't doubt that some of those people are the ones having difficulty doing relatively simple mechanics in mechanic heavy fights because it's practically impossible to turn the camera while moving, move to a specific spot to avoid a mechanic, pay attention to other player position, use abilities AND attack the right target if you're having to manually click abilities.

    And this is just in normal mode. Forget doing it in the higher end difficulties.
    *Raises hand* Using 1-5, Q, E, R, F, MB3, MB4, MB5. Plus Shift, Ctrl and Alt as modifiers. So that makes 48 possible keybinds with normal keyboard and a mouse with 2 sidebuttons and the scrollwheel. No real finger gymnastics either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    As a Healer or Tank I am fine to do it. As a DPS being in the middle of a Boss fight my spatial awareness tends to drop more than the other 2 roles.

    Also, holy crap I forgot Macros existed in this game. It seems the last time I made one was back at the start of 2.0 when i first tried the game. I think I just assumed they were in the same category as Addons in this game.
    I'd be careful about using macros for standard rotations, since the spells and abilities won't queue if used in a macro. And most of the time macros are a bit wonky.

    So use at your own risk!
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