[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Maljinwo]

Sorry just to clarify, I meant starter edition for $20, not complete edition...that's not $20. My bad.

What server are you on?

Hyperion, if i'm not mistaken

[D3athsting]

I have vanilla and heavensward, do i get stormblood too if i get shadowbringers?

[Katchii]

I have vanilla and heavensward, do i get stormblood too if i get shadowbringers?

According to several sites, yes, Shadowbringers includes Stormblood. However, pre-ordering only gives you early access to Shadowbringers. The actual account unlock code for both Stormblood and Shadowbringers won't get sent until launch day.

So if you pre-order Shadowbringers now, you won't get access to Stormblood or Shadowbringers until July 2nd, maybe a little earlier depending on when they actually send the codes.

[Wrecktangle]

'Farm' parties where someone leaves as soon as they win a roll on a mount, or they have a clear but don't understand the mechanics at all and lead to a wipe.

Ah ok - that makes sense. I'm so glad I don't give 2 shits about mounts (in WoW or FF14). It makes not ever having to deal with that a bs a godsend.

And as a pugging savage player you see this a lot. Dude gets carried through a savage turn, with grey parses, on the floor, and thinks he's ready to join a clear fight for the next turn, despite only having seen the first 2 mins of the next fight.

IMO "clear" parties are by and far the most toxic place in the game (besides typical zealots), but it's also one of the most rewarding (that feeling of camaraderie and collective excitement over succeeding together) . It's the place where you see the most friction between skilled and unskilled players manifest.

I've had bad groups, but never THAT bad, at least not in FFXIV, Most recent one I even remember was a Castrum Abania run where the DPS just flat couldn't do enough damage to the boss. I was the healer and we got 2 stacks onto each arm on the final boxx before I went OOM and then got blamed for not keeping the tank alive when he got hit by an AoE, had the massive DoT ticking AND then got hit by the big boss hit/ tank buster.

One of the few times I actually went off, explaining exactly why we failed and that we'd continue to fail if the DPS didn't step it up and the tank didn't think the shiny stuff on the ground was fun to play in... It was at that point BOTH DPS decided to let us know that they had broken gear. I just left and signed off. Still shaking my head just thinking about it.

Lol that run is the literal definition of "THAT bad".

I've met lots of PEOPLE that are that bad, but rarely had any GROUPS that were collectively that bad. I've had several groups where the other three carried the horrible 4th through the place kicking and screaming, so to speak. Of ANY role.

This is the crux of I think a lot of people saying they don't see bad runs. No they certainly do, but we're so conditioned to believe that success is a measure of completing the goal, not if the goal actually matters so that they fail to identify a bad run when they actually see it.

Speaking personally here:

• A great run is when everyone is geared and knows their jobs to a high degree (11 minute dungeon run)
• A good run is when everyone knows how to push buttons. Gear is irrelevant as long as its up to date and you can make mistakes (16 minute run)
• An ok run is when most know how to push buttons and have good gear. Some players have bad CPMs, zDPS healer, etc. (22 minute run)
• A bad run is when you're alone in pushing buttons, but everyone is max geared and doing DPS from 100 ilvl ago (26 minute run)
• An awful run is when you're alone in pushing buttons and everyone has cabbage ass gear (32 minute run)

TLDR - Push buttons.

I might actually put together a dataset in ShB. I might track every single DF interaction I have. Grab ilvl, performance metrics (ACT), and time to complete and compile it.

I remember being in an Eye of Azshara Heroic group through Dungeon Finder where a Discipline Priest wiped the floor with everyone. It was LATE in the expansion and they were just far far better geared than everyone else.

Cataclysm had a TON of groups where they simply couldn't deal with the mechanics, don't remember DPS numbers being terrible, was more about just not being able to cope with the mechanics.

I miss Cataclysm dungeons sometimes.

That doesn't count then lol, but yeah I figured it had to be a super geared disc against not geared DPS.

I liked cata dungeons a lot. I know why they moved away from them, but I definitely liked them a lot.

It's rare, and you honestly kind of know what you're getting into based on the language in the PF but still... I've met more impatient, uncompromising, triggered, douchebags in PF than in DF. Expectations set too high and random people just not living up to them, and the offender apparently just having a REALLY short fuse to begin with.

Oh for sure. I call this the "MOBA tilt effect". imagine you just did a farm party for a mount, and you had wiped because some idiot didn't know the fight. This then prompts them to immediately relist, but this time they're annoyed so verbiage gets worse, which tilts other people and makes them just annoyed before you even queue for the duty. It's a vicious cycle and I always associate it with MOBAs because it's where I see it the most frequently (I still play HotS a good bit and it's very common there).

You especially see it in savage pugs a lot during progression.

I've also had the complete opposite experience where the expectations aren't set high enough. I understand that in learning groups, you're intended to be learning, but when you've gotten past the same mechanics multiple times, you're not learning THAT part anymore. I know it would likely be counter intuitive, but I almost feel like there needs to be a limit on failing mechanics in learning parties like there is in some progression parties. Failing the same mechanic 3+ times means you get benched. The other 7 people want to move on and learn the rest of the fight.

I love learning groups, but once I've consistently surpassed their capabilities I move on to the next learning group. I remember having to do this with O3S and O7S very vividly. People struggled with phases that I had on lock (that means understanding BOTH cycles, i.e. if you get this mechanic do this, that mechanic do that, not just one) so I left and joined later parties. Once I've gotten a good grasp on all mechanics I join a clear party. I've probably already seen enrage a few times from learning parties, but they might have been bad enrages (I remember one O6S was like 29% enrage lol).

Ok so...

I've been wanting to get into FFXIV and the new expansion seems like a great place to start.

It most certainly is. Keep in mind that FF14 requires you to play through the entirety of the game (so ARR, HW, and SB) before you can play Shadowbringers content. This is likely a little over 100 hours of gameplay (cutscenes, combat, queuing, etc.). You can pay to skip it if you want, but it is good content especially if you like old school MMO stories (political intrigue, mystical figures, magic, etc.).

I have vanilla and heavensward, do i get stormblood too if i get shadowbringers?

Yep.

[Katchii]

Lol that run is the literal definition of "THAT bad".

Castrum Abania is a rough dungeon though, especially the last boss. I've seen multiple parties that weren't bad, fail to clear the boss because the overall DPS just isn't high enough. The gear check there is pretty brutal. There is a difference between bad players and decent players with bad gear. Some dungeons make that distinction very clear. Castrum Abania is one of them, IMO.

Castrum Abania last boss is one of those instances where even well played characters can't beat it if they just don't have the gear to clear it. It's a pretty healing intensive fight because of how hard the boss hits, coupled with a pretty high DPS check. Out of the 5 categories you listed for dungeon groups, only the top 2 can clear it consistently, the bottom 2 would never clear it and the middle one might depending on which roles were the bad eggs.

In the instance I cited, it was a combination of a couple good players with not so great gear and one asshat tank. Yeah, it was an objectively bad run, but it wasn't filled with incompetent twats...just one, lol. The run wasn't bad until the last boss

THAT bad to me would have been a run filled with asshat incompetents coupled with a horrible run throughout the dungeon.

This is the crux of I think a lot of people saying they don't see bad runs. No they certainly do, but we're so conditioned to believe that success is a measure of completing the goal, not if the goal actually matters so that they fail to identify a bad run when they actually see it.

Speaking personally here:

• A great run is when everyone is geared and knows their jobs to a high degree (11 minute dungeon run)
• A good run is when everyone knows how to push buttons. Gear is irrelevant as long as its up to date and you can make mistakes (16 minute run)
• An ok run is when most know how to push buttons and have good gear. Some players have bad CPMs, zDPS healer, etc. (22 minute run)
• A bad run is when you're alone in pushing buttons, but everyone is max geared and doing DPS from 100 ilvl ago (26 minute run)
• An awful run is when you're alone in pushing buttons and everyone has cabbage ass gear (32 minute run)

TLDR - Push buttons.

I might actually put together a dataset in ShB. I might track every single DF interaction I have. Grab ilvl, performance metrics (ACT), and time to complete and compile it.

I agree with your list, however I've seen amazing groups get over confident and have one or more people miss a mechanic causing a delay or even a wipe, and I've seen "bad" groups with great gear where everyone must have been trolling me because their performance was awful.

That said, in most cases my goal is simply to complete the dungeon, I don't keep track of the time or the by the numbers performance of everyone there. As long as it's completed with no wipes and it's sub 25 minutes that's a "good" run. Anything better than that is "great."

Keeping track of and holding a measuring stick up to every group every time seems like it would massively hinder the enjoyment or at least fun factor of just playing the game. Doing that turns it into some fact finding job, which isn't what playing video games is to me.

That, and there's really no point, IMO. Having those facts and data (regarding average ilevel, everyone else's performance and total time taken in the dungeon) won't change how the community/ randoms behave, it won't improve the performance of DF runs moving forward, it doesn't even really make you a better player. What overall purpose would that serve aside from just giving you more hard objective evidence to support what you already know?

Random dungeon finder groups have random performance, some good, some bad, and everything in between....

That doesn't count then lol, but yeah I figured it had to be a super geared disc against not geared DPS.

I liked cata dungeons a lot. I know why they moved away from them, but I definitely liked them a lot.

I've seen other examples of Disc priests coming close to DPS performance in dungeons where everyone was similarly geared, but that example is the only time I ever remember one truly out performing the DPS. Yeah, it doesn't really count...just saying I've seen it, lol.

I somewhat understand why they moved away from Cata style dungeons, but I really wish they'd put SOME mechanics on trash that needed more than just KILL THIS FIRST tactics.

I remember some trash pulls in TBC being even harder than the bosses they led up to. Those were fun

Oh for sure. I call this the "MOBA tilt effect". imagine you just did a farm party for a mount, and you had wiped because some idiot didn't know the fight. This then prompts them to immediately relist, but this time they're annoyed so verbiage gets worse, which tilts other people and makes them just annoyed before you even queue for the duty. It's a vicious cycle and I always associate it with MOBAs because it's where I see it the most frequently (I still play HotS a good bit and it's very common there).

You especially see it in savage pugs a lot during progression.

Yeah, I've been in groups like that from the beginning for mount farm groups (previous expansion not current) which still require people to at least pay attention and not be stupid. Once things start going downhill, it snowballs pretty quickly. It's rare to see a group recover from that.

I love learning groups, but once I've consistently surpassed their capabilities I move on to the next learning group. I remember having to do this with O3S and O7S very vividly. People struggled with phases that I had on lock (that means understanding BOTH cycles, i.e. if you get this mechanic do this, that mechanic do that, not just one) so I left and joined later parties. Once I've gotten a good grasp on all mechanics I join a clear party. I've probably already seen enrage a few times from learning parties, but they might have been bad enrages (I remember one O6S was like 29% enrage lol).

I've had too many bad experiences with clear parties getting all pissy when they see the bonus message at the beginning, even after I got the invite from the leader with full knowledge of me not clearing before. Blamed for something I didn't even do, or getting completely bitched out for getting hit by one mechanic that I had only seen maybe once or twice...while others in the group did too.

I don't care enough about doing that kind of content to want to deal with that kind of asshattery or negativity. I stick to normal and alliance raids and DF for the most part. The high end gear treadmill lost it's cache' a LONG time ago.

[Faroth]

I might actually put together a dataset in ShB. I might track every single DF interaction I have. Grab ilvl, performance metrics (ACT), and time to complete and compile it.

Yikes.

That sounds like the most intricate epeen measuring stick I've ever heard of and would serve no purpose whatsoever. The absolute only thing that would come of this is data to support bragging of your own performance and crapping on how bad you'll view the playerbase as a whole is.

And over what? By your own measurement, approximately 10-15 minutes of your day in a dungeon run? Which you admittedly don't even do often because you'd be in Savage gear and wouldn't need tomestones anyway?

Seriously, man, this is next level weirdness to prove how much better you are and how garbage you think everyone else is. Do something else with your time. Go help train unsocialized dogs. Volunteer at a shelter. Do deeper gameplay analysis and send it in to companies (never know what could get a foot in a door). Anything is more productive than this. Your class analysis and revamp designs are more productive to submit in for constructive feedback. How long DFs take isn't really helpful, nor is it data SE likely doesn't already have to begin with.

Hell, stream and do YouTube. At least you'll be putting energy towards potential money making eventually.

[Wrecktangle]

Castrum Abania is a rough dungeon though, especially the last boss. I've seen multiple parties that weren't bad, fail to clear the boss because the overall DPS just isn't high enough. The gear check there is pretty brutal. There is a difference between bad players and decent players with bad gear. Some dungeons make that distinction very clear. Castrum Abania is one of them, IMO.

Castrum Abania last boss is one of those instances where even well played characters can't beat it if they just don't have the gear to clear it. It's a pretty healing intensive fight because of how hard the boss hits, coupled with a pretty high DPS check. Out of the 5 categories you listed for dungeon groups, only the top 2 can clear it consistently, the bottom 2 would never clear it and the middle one might depending on which roles were the bad eggs.

Granted I haven't seen that dungeon in forever, but I remember the few times I went in I had no issues. I do remember being significantly undergeared for it the first time (same with Bardams) and was getting rocked, but smart use of CDs and decent players got us through. I don't even think we wiped once, but I do remember the boss hits like a truck.

I agree with your list, however I've seen amazing groups get over confident and have one or more people miss a mechanic causing a delay or even a wipe, and I've seen "bad" groups with great gear where everyone must have been trolling me because their performance was awful.

Oh naturally. I've been in runs where I caused a wipe because I misunderstood the skill levels of my teammates. It happens and I own the mistake, apologize and we still have a good run, even if it delays by a few minutes. A wipe or time aren't the only factors I took into account, they're just the core guidelines. Attitudes can definitely have both positive and negative swings on the designations.

That said, in most cases my goal is simply to complete the dungeon, I don't keep track of the time or the by the numbers performance of everyone there. As long as it's completed with no wipes and it's sub 25 minutes that's a "good" run. Anything better than that is "great."

I don't agree with the goal being completion. That's what I meant by setting the floor too low. That's like me saying my goal today is to wake up. That's honestly the bare minimum lol.

I had this discussion a lot with online dating partners. They'd be like I just want a guy who is consistently nice and cares and wants to see me. I'm like ??? That's the bare minimum... and she's like I know, but this is how some dudes are apparently. Crazy.

Keeping track of and holding a measuring stick up to every group every time seems like it would massively hinder the enjoyment or at least fun factor of just playing the game. Doing that turns it into some fact finding job, which isn't what playing video games is to me.

That, and there's really no point, IMO. Having those facts and data (regarding average ilevel, everyone else's performance and total time taken in the dungeon) won't change how the community/ randoms behave, it won't improve the performance of DF runs moving forward, it doesn't even really make you a better player. What overall purpose would that serve aside from just giving you more hard objective evidence to support what you already know?

See below at my reply to @Faroth.

Seriously, man, this is next level weirdness to prove how much better you are and how garbage you think everyone else is. Do something else with your time.

If there's one thing that you of all people actually taught me it's that different people find different things fun. You may not know this about me, but I am a numbers guy. I went to college for Finance. I work in the Financial Services Industry and utilize various data sets very intimately daily.

I find numbers and data FUN. I like analyzing them to see various trends and sharing that with others as well as driving discussions surrounding it. This isn't some thing where it's me vs. them, or some epeen thing. I'd be curious to see how DPS grows in scalar with ilvl and if new AOE tools/systems gets more people to actually use AOE skills, etc. There's a lot of neat observations that I could grab from actually having the data on hand. Not to mention you know that I like to discuss things and that I like to offer insight. Rather than relying on specific anecdotes I can supply a genuine complete personal data set to corroborate any conclusions I draw. Definitely helpful for discussions for sure.

I'm honestly surprised you came so aggressively at me about it.

[Granyala]

Yikes.

That sounds like the most intricate epeen measuring stick I've ever heard of and would serve no purpose whatsoever. The absolute only thing that would come of this is data to support bragging of your own performance and crapping on how bad you'll view the playerbase as a whole is.

Doesn't Wreck work for some company involved in big data?
If so, I can kinda understand his fetish for statistics.

I disagree with your assessment that it would only serve to stroke his E-Peen, to be frank: I find the idea intriguing and am looking forward to his results.
It'll be cool to see how actual datasets shape up against my gut feeling that 80% of people I encounter in dungeons half ass their play.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be curious to see how DPS grows in scalar with ilvl

I know FFlogs doesn't track ilvl directly but indirectly through what is available in a given patch cycle, we already have the data and can assess how much our output increases in respect to gear.

[Katchii]

I don't agree with the goal being completion. That's what I meant by setting the floor too low. That's like me saying my goal today is to wake up. That's honestly the bare minimum lol.

I had this discussion a lot with online dating partners. They'd be like I just want a guy who is consistently nice and cares and wants to see me. I'm like ??? That's the bare minimum... and she's like I know, but this is how some dudes are apparently. Crazy.

While I can understand having additional goals besides finishing the dungeon, finishing is still priority one, and I'd argue the only reason most people even join. Obviously not completion alone, but the rewards associated with completing the dungeon.

I'm not really sure how having the goal of completing the dungeon, when the primary purpose of a dungeon is to provide gear and rewards for completing it, is setting the bar too low.

Bare minimum or not, that's the expectation, that's the primary goal.

If you want to set other goals for yourself in addition to completion, that's fine, but IMO having anything else as a goal in a random DF group is just asking for disappointment. There's no guarantee, or any reason to believe, that you'll finish it in X amount of time, or get that item you're hoping for. The only one you have any control over is your personal DPS output, which is only possible if you have a parser, which I don't

See below at my reply to @Faroth.

You do you man, if you enjoy it, have fun. As I said though, I see absolutely no point in gathering that much of that kind of data when you already know what it will tell you. At least in the context of that discussion. If you're going to use it for more than just random DF group performance I guess there could be more value in it.

I find numbers and data FUN. I like analyzing them to see various trends and sharing that with others as well as driving discussions surrounding it. This isn't some thing where it's me vs. them, or some epeen thing. I'd be curious to see how DPS grows in scalar with ilvl and if new AOE tools/systems gets more people to actually use AOE skills, etc. There's a lot of neat observations that I could grab from actually having the data on hand. Not to mention you know that I like to discuss things and that I like to offer insight. Rather than relying on specific anecdotes I can supply a genuine complete personal data set to corroborate any conclusions I draw. Definitely helpful for discussions for sure.

I'm honestly surprised you came so aggressively at me about it.

I agree with the data being able to provide some level of insight into those things. I just don't care about those insights. You obviously do.

Depending on the discussion though, that kind of data is unnecessary and in some cases I'd say irrelevant, or at least misleading. Not going to expand much more on it (because I'm sure you are aware so I'm not going to insult your intelligence) besides saying, context matters. There's more to the data than just the numbers. Why those numbers are what they are matters just as much, if not more than the numbers themselves. The "why" can't always be answered by metrics.

All that said, fun is obviously extremely subjective. And I don't find that kind of data gathering and analysis, inside of a video game, fun...at all.

[Wrecktangle]

Doesn't Wreck work for some company involved in big data?
If so, I can kinda understand his fetish for statistics.

I know FFlogs doesn't track ilvl directly but indirectly through what is available in a given patch cycle, we already have the data and can assess how much our output increases in respect to gear.

Yes I do lol.

A lot of my prelim work referenced that and it's true that FFLogs does give good insight into the savage aspect, but I think it misses my desired goal. I also know that it's really easy to see my personal performance as ilvl increases and measure it, but this notion is one dimensional since it only factors high level play. I'm curious how does gear impact low level play and mid level play? How does it differ between content types (Dungeons vs. normal mode raids/trials)?

My dataset should offer some insight thus demonstrating how I arrived at a given conclusion and in turn hopefully facilitate better discussion.

snip

Fair enough - different strokes for different folks then

[Graeham II]

I think @Wrecktangle cursed me.

Today's roulette for my daily trial was Lakshmi. Normal mode.

I usually default to being the MT. I did just that.

My partner was with me as a NIN. He and I were doing just fine but everybody else? We wiped. That's fine, it happens. I explained the tactics and...we wiped again. Mostly due to the healers and OT repeatedly dying due to refusing to use Vril or pressing it at the wrong time.

After three wipes someone left and my partner and I just ditched the group since we wouldn't have to eat a penalty. We queued up again and got Gilgamesh instead - which went much more smoothly.

[Granyala]

Yeah I have encountered people unwilling to use vril too.
They even said sth like "the skill is crap I don'T want to use it" and proceeded dying.

Luckily the boss died anyway b/c it was only DPS. Lived for an eternity though.

- - - Updated - - -

but this notion is one dimensional since it only factors high level play. I'm curious how does gear impact low level play and mid level play? How does it differ between content types (Dungeons vs. normal mode raids/trials)?

I seriously doubt this is high level play:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

*chuckles*

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah I have encountered people unwilling to use vril too.
They even said sth like "the skill is crap I don'T want to use it" and proceeded dying.

Luckily the boss died anyway b/c it was only DPS. Lived for an eternity though.

I'm ok with people not understanding what it does and it having to be explained... but flat out refusing to use it and for that stupid ass reason? Some people do not need to breed.

[Granyala]

I'm ok with people not understanding what it does and it having to be explained... but flat out refusing to use it and for that stupid ass reason? Some people do not need to breed.

They probably got a kick out of trolling the group.

[Super Kami Dende]

Yeah I have encountered people unwilling to use vril too.
They even said sth like "the skill is crap I don'T want to use it" and proceeded dying.

Luckily the boss died anyway b/c it was only DPS. Lived for an eternity though.

Good god the amount of People that flat out refuse to use Vril is staggering. I legitimately cringe when Lakshmi gives us a good ol' bosom buster and 3 People just fall over dead straight up.

[KrayZ33]

Anyone playing from Germany, or any country - whatever, with serious connection issues in raids?
Stills for 5-10 secs etc. Really, really annoying, I sure hope they get their act together for shadowbringers.

It's probably an ISP issue from Telekom, but maybe other peeps here have problems too?

[Granyala]

Good god the amount of People that flat out refuse to use Vril is staggering. I legitimately cringe when Lakshmi gives us a good ol' bosom buster and 3 People just fall over dead straight up.

Well.. who wants to have some kind of shield around them when these boobs are involved anyway?
@KrayZ33: Yep the last few days, performance has been quite horrible even in the overworld. Lags, stills, you name it.

[Bornath]

I have been getting nothing but awful groups lately. A sastasha with a tank who would not even combo, let alone flash. A Sohm Ahl where the tank at ilvl 90. Not even Ironworks. A LoA where we wiped on the first boss because none of the tanks wanted to use their tank stance. I get that there are a lot of people coming back right now, but good grief, the heck is going on?

[Katchii]

Anyone playing from Germany, or any country - whatever, with serious connection issues in raids?
Stills for 5-10 secs etc. Really, really annoying, I sure hope they get their act together for shadowbringers.

It's probably an ISP issue from Telekom, but maybe other peeps here have problems too?

Well.. who wants to have some kind of shield around them when these boobs are involved anyway?
@KrayZ33: Yep the last few days, performance has been quite horrible even in the overworld. Lags, stills, you name it.

I'm in California on Excalibur (Primal Data Center) and I've had pretty terrible connection issues the last few days, intermittently anyway. I only really see it when I'm in dungeons, but when I see it, it's BAD. I went through half my Expert dungeon with my Red Mage floating around in the pre-casting animation with my input delayed pretty terribly...but it was functional enough for us to finish.

Other times it only lasts 1-2 minutes, but it's still awful.

[Granyala]

Wonder if addon prep is already underway compromising performance somewhat.