[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[KrayZ33]

No, only a small handful of people awakened the Echo. You also see this at Eulmore in 5.3, where only 2 guys watching on the balcony awakened the Echo.

Didn't Elidibus specifically state that all of mankind is in possession of the Echo...? Everyone felt sorrow and sadness when he re-created the firestorm. What would happen to the "souls" after the calamity? If they weren't "sundered" they wouldn't return to the source and the aether/soul would just be "lost"? That doesn't feel like a complete "cycle". And I would be suprised if we eventually get to see someone talking to us who doesn't have a "soul".

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Didn't Elidibus specifically state that all of mankind is in possession of the Echo...? Everyone felt sorrow and sadness when he re-created the firestorm. What would happen to the "souls" after the calamity? If they weren't "sundered" they wouldn't return to the source and the aether would just be "lost"? That doesn't feel like a complete cycle.

There are three types of beings:

1. Souls that existed before the Final Days. Basically everyone who has the echo (ie the WoL, Minfillia, Yslaye, Krile, Mikoto, and about a dozen or two dozen people on the First. Bear in mind that it seems like there are more Echo users on the First, because the total habitable area of the First is very small, so all of the reincarnating First souls are reincarnating in that dense area. Compare that to the Source, where there are barely half a dozen known people with the Echo, because those souls are reincarnating across the entire planet).
2. Souls that came into being after the Final Days (aka the new, malformed life) but were sundered. They have soul fragments on the other shards and are 7/14ths complete on the Source. Ie, Gerold and Grenolt.
3. Souls that came into being after the Sundering. They have no counterparts on other shards. When a rejoining happens, excess aether may or may not fill in their soul, so they might be 7/14ths on the Source. But they don't have counterparts like the Source WoL did with Ardbert.

If you don't awaken the echo upon seeing a starshower (like the Scions when on the First), you don't have a pre-Final Days souls. If you don't have a counterpart on other shards, then your soul more than likely came into existence after the Sundering, but it's to prove that on a per character basis because Square isn't going to lose the plot and go out of their way to create a counterpart NPC for more than a small handful of characters.

[confety]

"It is not a summoning crystal - It doesn't revive or call back the dead. It is Azem's crystal. It houses the memories and powers of Azem. Azem's power was to summon allies from wherever they are."

You contradicted yourself like wtf.

Ancients use creation magic wich is literally summoning, thats how ascians teach beast tribes how to summon gods.

Azem's power was to call his friends.
Emet was Azem's best friend.

We use Azem's crystal, with Azem's power, to summon Azem's best friend, with creation magic.

Cmon it's not that hard EVERYBODY knows its Emet, or at least a shade of him created by the crystal, maybe even a primal version of him, as you "wish with all your heart", this is totally a NO THE WORLD IS MISTAKEN case.

Its Emet, just deal with it

[KrayZ33]

Emet used creation magic to create the crystal. But the Crystal itself has a use - To store the memories and powers of a member of the Convocation, so that should the member of the Convocation fall, a new member can be raised to that old members status. (The Ascians mentioned raising a sundered member to status multiple times prior to the showing of Azem's crystal, this was just the first time we learned HOW they did that.)

With that being said, how did you come to the conclusion that it's Azem (which is most likely us) we summon with the help of Azem's (our) power?
Since you are 100% sure about it after saying I was 99,999% wrong when I said I'm 99,999% sure it's Emet.

That doesn't make sense at all.

"I use my power to summon allies, I mean - me, - my other part, which is on a different shard of this star to use my power to get myself and my adventurer colleagues out of the void And then I act like Emet because I liked how cool he looks when he does his signature move, quite fitting, since grabbing people out of the immaterial is something he was really good at anyway."

I just don't see how it's him or why you connect that Ancient to him when you know his power is to summon others/friends to his side.

[KrayZ33]

I'm sorry but it does *not* make more sense.
In fact it doesn't make any sense at all and it's such a roundabout way of this happening when the fucking obvious answer is right in front of you.

Why do you think the crystal would hold a summoned/powerred being or something that could do that?
It holds the powers and memories, just like you said.
It's a soul crystal. Like the one we wear that defines our class.
It's not some kind of holographic device - and that holographic image holds powers - or whatever.

Azem is one of Emet's *best* friends in lore, he is also the guy, in lore, known to have the very rare feature called "soulsight" and known for his ability to pluck souls out of the immaterial and he even demonstrated that to us in person before all this.
Why do you think Emet wanted to test and gave us a chance, especially after he saw us as and got reminded of his old friemd? Because his feelings toward his friends still linger inside him, in case you didn't notice. Neither the WoL nor Emet hate each other after the final battle.

[KrayZ33]

I'm sorry, but you don't get to decide what the WoL feels, as that is the Player Character.

What ?
I most certainly do, because it's not *you* it's a character written in a very specific way. You don't have choices or whatever. Where the heck is that nonsense comming from.

And him testing us actually implies that he would have a plan if he judges us worthy, wouldn't it?


As for him being able to reappear

"Ah, mister tall one, do you know where I can find Emet-Selch, kupo?

I'm doing this and that and have a delivery for him, kupo!

«Fufu… I see. I suppose, to deliver these to him now… there.» Kupopopo!?

The packages turned into light and disappeared! What did you do, kupo~!

«Even sweets are no more than masses of aether. Once returned to such, they will flow to where he is… to where all life eventually returns. Our lord of the Underworld is, personality aside, extremely shrewd. No matter how vast the sea of life may be, he will surely be able to scoop it out. If he feels like it, that is.»"

this is implying that he is in the lifestream and can still get the stuff out of it if he so wishes.
It also implies that he is self aware.

While alive. Y'shtola's sister ALSO demonstrated the ability to pluck souls out of the lifestream, in person, to us, long before Emet-Selch did, with the exact same person he plucked from the lifestream - So it's not like this is unique to him.

That's not what happened. Y'sthola's sister didn't do anything. They used her to identify Yshtola in the lifestream, because her aether is similar. The elementals plucked her out of it.

[KrayZ33]

My WoL can feel however my WoL feels. In my story, the WoL hates Emet. You can decide how YOUR WoL feels about Emet, but the story doesn't dictate how your character feels about other characters. Nothing in the story says the WoL has to LIKE Emet.

Understand the motivations of? Yes. Pity? Yes. Like? No, not at all.






That sure is a quote without context. Mind providing it?

- - - Updated - - -



Thank you for the reminder, the fact remains it's not "unparalleled" if it can be done elsewhere.

The quote is from "White Day 2020 dev blog"
There are some sidestorys online on the official site that you might not have read either that clearly state how Emet's ability to work with the life stream is one of a kind.

Yup - Death. His plan was to die if we're worthy. Because the only way we would be worthy in his eyes, would be to be greater than him, and he wasn't going to accept that until death.

You'll note again - This makes absolutely no sense if he can return to life at will.

The idea is that he doesn't come back even if he could because he accepts it now. He came back once more and helped us to give Elidibus rest, who suffered the most from what happened in the past. Basically a "thank you" to him, as much as to us.

[Xilurm]

Is there any point in this? Fleugen refuses to see reason and accept something that's right infront of them. I'm not sure if anyone can convince them at this point, maybe if there was an interview with Yoshi-P talking about the fight itself but I don't think there is one.

[KrayZ33]

The only "reason" you have is "He waves similar."

Which is not only the weakest reason possible - It's nonsense. It's nonsense because there's so many lore reasons AGAINST why it would be him, and yet you insist "WELL EVERYONE KNOWS IT AND THEREFORE IT'S TRUE" because... because of an animation. An animation that would look exactly the same if they put a completely different race as the one doing so.

That's not how lore works, and your lack of willingness to actually DISCUSS the topic instead of insist that "everyone knows it" is why you won't be getting any further replies out of me.

There is not a single reason against why it would be him, so I don't know what you are talking about.
The only reasons you gave is because *you* specifically don't like thim.

Y'shtola: So long as they remain unforgotten, the love he and his brethren bore for one another and the star may yet be rewarded.
Alphinaud: You said that an ancient came to your aid. But how is that possible?
Y'shtola: A gift from Emet-Selch. He knew of Elidibus's plight. Foreseeing his own death, he made provisions to bring Elidibus's suffering to an end, lest his friend be left to continue the struggle alone.

If we, as you said, just asume that this is some kind of image that helped us out:

Who created the stone? Emet Selch
Who gave us the stone? A creation of Emet Selch - who specifically said that he is giving us the stone, but he doesn't know if he himself wishes to do so, or if Emet Selch intended to give it to us.
Who's to say that the stone didn't have the image of Emet Selch in there - knowing what Elidibus tried to do, he prepared a counter-measure - a one time thing, and it's heavily implied that it's a one time thing, isn't it? Considering how that ancient didn't do anything but grab us out of the Rift.
He even said that Azems stone has the power to summon the *stars* at his side, and the stars are the 13 other title holders.

The snap, the handwave.. it's literally what is important and the most impactful about this scene and so-fucking-clearly a reminder of Emet-Selch. And you just ignore it because it doesn't fit *your* opinion.
Geez. It's quite silly actually.

I'll leave it at that.

[Xilurm]

The "point" in this is, we're in a megathread and we're discussing the lore. That's literally what forums are for. If you don't like being questioned on something you are struggling to prove as true, don't come to a forum to discuss precisely that. I'm not here to blindly agree with you just cause you want me to.

The only "reason" you have is "He waves similar."

Which is not only the weakest reason possible - It's nonsense. It's nonsense because there's so many lore reasons AGAINST why it would be him, and yet you insist "WELL EVERYONE KNOWS IT AND THEREFORE IT'S TRUE" because... because of an animation. An animation that would look exactly the same if they put a completely different race as the one doing so.

That's not how lore works, and your lack of willingness to actually DISCUSS the topic instead of insist that "everyone knows it" is why you won't be getting any further replies out of me.

Because this is like discussing something about an apple and then you coming and trying to prove it's an orange.

Also the "he waves similar" is enough of a reason because he's the only one literally the only character who does that exact animation. WHY would Square give the ancient that appears that exact same animation if they didn't want to allude that it's Emet? Seriously, have you actually seen the animation we're talking about or no? Because it's not anything random. It's something only he does and no other character, npc, mob, literally any other pixel in this game has done.

You want a legit lore reason? Emet left a memory inside the crystal of Azem. That's it. Because Emet himself created those crystals, and he created the Azem crystal in secret.

Those crystals didn't just happen to coincidentally appear in Hythlodaeus's pocket like Val says in the previous page, Emet put them there in case he died. Why did he do that? Because he wanted Elidibus to be free, yes, Elidibus. Emet knew he was sad and broken, even after his return from Zodiark. So that's why we gave those crystals to Elidibus at the end so he could let go.

Also, how would it be Azem in the first place? Azem is us, so the ancient soul doesn't exist. Did we summon ourselves? If so, why do we appear next to the shade when he brings us back from the void? It makes no sense. If it can't be Emet then by your logic it can't be Azem either.

As to why Emet would help us? Because he considers us friends. He always wanted us to succeed in the first place, he just didn't trust that we were capable in doing so.

- - - Updated - - -

The snap, the handwave.. it's literally what is important and the most impactful about this scene and so-fucking-clearly a reminder of Emet-Selch. And you just ignore it because it doesn't fit *your* opinion.
Geez. It's quite silly actually.

I'll leave it at that.

Wish there was an interview of some kind that would just put an end to this silly argument. But I can't find anything on the 5.3 patch. Maybe there will be something next week at the announcement.

[KrayZ33]

Wish there was an interview of some kind that would just put an end to this silly argument. But I can't find anything on the 5.3 patch. Maybe there will be something next week at the announcement.

I doubt there will be any "definite" conclusion
But it's really just ...unusual... to assume they would add that walk and that handwave and that "snap" .... "just because".
When they could've done a thousand different animations and even more so, a thousand different ways to make the character we just "summoned" (or whatever we did) disappear.
Especially since signature moves like these are exactly why they exist and most likely why this character even has that one.

It's quite ironic actually, considering how he pleaded to us to "remember" and someone is like - "let's just ignore what happened there."

[Xilurm]

I find it ironic that he'd tell us to "remember us" and then have every ability to, you know. Not die, and remain as long as he pleased.

Why am I remembering him? He's literally eternal. Even if he dies, he's never actually dead according to you, cause dead things return to the lifestream and he can just DECIDE to come back. His entire ending is ruined if you presume he's not dead like you do.

He's a memory, not fully Emet with body and soul.

[Xilurm]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

Is it really that impossible to think that Emet put a shade of himself into Azem's crystal? He created it.

[KrayZ33]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

It doesn't hold Azem's memories.
It holds Emets memories of Azem - if anything.

He created that stone, he could've done *anything* to it.

Sorry, but if anyone here is being silly, it's you. You presume the stone has powers beyond what we're told it had, you presume he is alive when he's clearly shown dead, you presume he can bring himself back to life despite the MASSIVE consequences that would have on the story at large, and you ignore that... a wave... is in no way indicative of who a person is.

I don't presume he is "alive" in this scene. The aether that created this image fucking disappears after all.
I presume he is not dead-dead. But that doesn't matter in that scene, does it?

as for the rest of your post, I'm literally to lazy to adress every single quote there because you make some mind-gymnastics, that I don't want to decode and assumptions about things I'm thinking, when I'm not and say things I'm saying, but I'm not actually saying. So please spare me.
There is nothing worse than someone ripping up a post into 50 tiny-little pieces and you have to quote/adress every fucking little thing.
So I will focus on the important bit - the gesture.

I still find it amusing that you dismiss that gesture just like that.
It's funny, it truely is. It's like the most common anime/movie scene/trope you could imagine and you act like it has no meaning and doesn't hint at something.
When you just google that scene, everyone is like "I thought it was Azem but then that hand wave and it was immediatly clear who it was"
It's what every FFXIV player said, ever.
But here you are, holding against the tide. Acting like this wave wasn't done on purpose but used as a "generic animation" (even though no NPC other than him every used it). Do you understand that there is a script-writer - who has specific things in mind when he does scenes like this?

*sigh*
how delusional

I mean, I get it why you believe it was Azem at first, I *really* do. Heck even I myself thought it was "the ancient in that stone" that we summoned. But that hand wave and the way he cast that spell, which you dismiss just like that, *completely* turned it around for just about everyone but you.

I would be less inclined to insist on this matter if you weren't as hilariously confident that it has to be Azem.
After all, there is no 100% guarantee that our assumption is correct (neither is yours), but you sure acted like it when you said that we are definitely wrong

[Xilurm]

It doesn't hold Azem's memories.
It holds Emets memories of Azem - if anything.

He created that stone, he could've done *anything* to it.

I wonder if that's why Fandaniel says his memories of the final days are "second hand".

[Xilurm]

So are you presuming he fucked with his friend's crystal, which I'm guessing, he didn't create JUST for us to find, but likely created thousands of lifetimes ago when the betrayal first happened?

I'm not buying that. He kept the crystal so he could eventually, hopefully, restore his friend. He wouldn't put himself in it - That's not his friend, and would potentially mess with the creation of the stone in the first place.

Why do you assume that? How do you know? He was a member of the convocation, a master of creation magic among all the Amaurotines. It would probably be child's work for him.

[KrayZ33]

Coming from the guy who started with "I'm 99,999% sure" that's rather rich. Especially since you've continued to update this post LONG after replies already went out.

I left room for an error, see the difference? And the the forum page doesn't F5 itself. I edit posts, yes? I only reread stuff once I've posted it because the preview is small, what's the problem. I'm not adding/editing stuff for "Ha gotcha"-moments, if you are paranoid about that.
I usually only add thoughts that explain my thought and try to fix grammar errors and such.
When I see my quotes in your posts however, I know you read these edits, as I could update my first post now and it wouldn't update yours.

You have directly said, multiple times throughout this thread, that Emet-Selch holds enough power over the Lifestream to just leave whenever he pleases, and that's why the crystal was able to summon him.

Either he's alive still, or he's not. There's no in between state. He is alive and can come back, because he has been shown to and has the ability to at will, or he does not, can not, and is dead. Which is it?

Nuh-uh.
We have little to no information how the lifestream even works.
We know that souls and aether return to it.
Emet is able to grab souls and their aether out of it.
What is possible for Y'shtola should be possible for Emet. Why not?

The stone "summoned" (what other word would you use?) a "shade" (or his soul for what I care) with the image of Emet - since he is an ally and friend (even if you don't like it).
The whole idea of this *addon* is that we found friends to fight and solve these problems. Summoning "ourselves" in the epic climax sounds wrong by design.

So are you presuming he fucked with his friend's crystal, which I'm guessing, he didn't create JUST for us to find, but likely created thousands of lifetimes ago when the betrayal first happened?

I don't know, why you think his failed-creation friend has it and gives it to us? Why was it not lying on the floor like the others? Or maybe *he* tempered with it? Why does Y'shtola also think it has been part of his plan.
What makes you think he can't "edit" something to these stones at a later stage.

[Xilurm]

Because he fucked up in creating Hythlodaeus too. Creation magic was just that fickle. All it takes is a stray thought, and presto - A completely irrelevant NPC in the world becomes sentient of the situation around it.

Emet-Selch was not above mistakes.

That was an entire city, compared to one crystal. A crystal which he could recreate if he messed up. He didn't exactly have the luxury of recreating an entire city because he thought "maybe Hythlodaeus will figure it out".

And I know it was created thousands of lifetimes ago because Hythlodaeus remembers it. He knows what the stones are, and tells us, to our faces, that they were created for the purpose of restoring the powers of the Convocation to new members. They existed as early as, if not earlier than, the day before the End of Days.

We also know they were created AFTER Azem left the Convocation. Because Azem was not supposed to have a Constellation stone (Again - Hythlodaeus directly tells us this) - Emet-Selch created it in secret.

Not sure what this has to do with the rest. I was asking only about how do you know there was a possibility of him messing it up.

(We presume. "A friend" of Azem did with certainty, which HIGHLY suggests Emet-Selch at this time. Though it's worth considering we are Hythlodaeus' "new old friend" as well...)

We are, that's a fact, there's no denying it because Hythlodaeus tells us that to our face.

[Xilurm]

If there is one repetitious theme of Emet-Selch and Elidibus' relationship, it's that they forget. They are VERY concerned that they forget.

Recreating forgotten memories is impossible, they know that better than anyone. Which only makes it MORE likely that the stone was created a long time ago.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't put a memory of himself in there. And if he had messed it up at the time don't you think he would know? He would've fixed it then and there.

[Thestrawman]

Then it's just as likely that the Ancient is just a shade projected by the Crystal, thus making it Azem. Because Azem's crystal holds Azem's memories. Not Emet-Selch's.

That's incorrect. The memory crystals of the convocation are from the unsundered ascians alone. It's their memories of the other members not from the members themselves. If you wanted a good question to ask it would be when was Azem's crystal made.