No dedicated healers in GW2. Thoughts?

[omlech]

I think you'll find that there aren't enough players with the skill to manage all of the resources of tank/dps/self-healing. I look at it like this: Blizzard has "dumbed down WoW" according to an overwhelming number of posts on these forums. The reason being, the majority of players want a game to be easier, and the hardcore players are in the minority. I think if GW2 requires players to have to play a style that is more "hardcore" then it won't keep a large population base.

A friend of mine brought up a good point to me a few months back regarding the same subject. He said "If most people can barely handle WoW, how will they handle GW2 where they have to do everything and be self reliant?" That was a really good question and I think the answer to that is maybe a lot of people who play WoW simply won't end up playing GW2 long term because it is indeed too difficult and requires too much focus. Though I think due to the dynamic and active combat, the death of the holy trinity (it may not mean as much to people outside of the MMO genre), the ability to get into things with any class, the pick up and play PvP, the dynamic events, a massive explorable world that changes every time you login, and all with no monthly fees will attract people who wouldn't even give the genre a second look otherwise. So essentially I think that even if ANet doesn't pull that many people from WoW due to the sheer amount of attention and skill required, they very well could pull people from other places where they may not have ever bothered with an MMO until now. I think they could pull a ton of people in from the MOBA crowd, GW2 combat is very much like a MOBA game with the ability to not be hit by a skill, skill shots, limited abilities, team fights, tons of strategy all the while you never get bored even though it's the same 6 skills on the same map over and over again.

[Ynna]

I think you'll find that there aren't enough players with the skill to manage all of the resources of tank/dps/self-healing. I look at it like this: Blizzard has "dumbed down WoW" according to an overwhelming number of posts on these forums. The reason being, the majority of players want a game to be easier, and the hardcore players are in the minority. I think if GW2 requires players to have to play a style that is more "hardcore" then it won't keep a large population base.

Guildwars 2, at its base shouldn't be any harder than games like Elders Scrolls: Oblivion, Team Fortress 2 or any other FPS. Looking out for yourself is a basic skill in games. And death isn't very punishing in GW2, so even if it is too difficult for some people, they aren't out of the action long.
And I challenge the idea that people want WoW to be easier. Some might. I don't think it's a majority.

[Autofollow]

I can recall an interview I've read a long time ago saying; Guild Wars 2 has a place and a thing for everyone.

Oh I'm sure they do. And I think a lot of people are going to go try it out and after a few months it will stabilize like all of the other new MMO's that come out. I've lost track of how many games my friends and I have tried out both in beta and live only to come back after realizing it wasn't everything I/we thought it was cracked up to be. I have friends of mine that are all looking forward to GW2 with great interest but I'm jaded on spending the money on yet another game only to come back to this one over and over.

[omlech]

I do wonder about this...but the more I think about it, the more I wonder how many MMO players also play FPS games.

I'm not an FPS expert...but in the ones I've played the player has had to select the correct gun for the situation...keep an eye on their health and armour...react to the combat as it evolves...and finally, stay mobile...if you're in a team, a comrade may throw you a health-pack...but ultimately, your survival and choices are all your responsibility.

I wonder how many of those skills are directly transferable.

Yeah it can also be transferred from MOBA style games to GW2 as well, very similar in concept.

A bit off-topic, how many posts do I need to make before my longer posts don't need to be approved by a mod? I mean damn all I'm doing is typing maybe 2-3 paragraphs and it has to be approved. Is it spam related?

[Muzjhath]

I think you'll find that there aren't enough players with the skill to manage all of the resources of tank/dps/self-healing. I look at it like this: Blizzard has "dumbed down WoW" according to an overwhelming number of posts on these forums. The reason being, the majority of players want a game to be easier, and the hardcore players are in the minority. I think if GW2 requires players to have to play a style that is more "hardcore" then it won't keep a large population base.

Actually, very few people want an easy experience. They want a challanging experience that they can understand and deal with.
The problem with many games is they lack good learning tools. Aka, toturials. MMOs are on the forefront of this. If you doubt me, check the one for EVE Online. "READ THIS!" Equals of... ten or something pages of text. "You did?" Well, you did. And got bored out of your mind and only understood half. "Good, you won't need 2/3rds of it for half a year, hope you remember it."
Then look at how WoW does tutorials. Wait, it doesn't! It's recently started a bit with that you have to use your first new skill three times, that's it. And they had a decent one in the DK starting zone that if you played carefully and smart learned to use many of the tools.
As long as GW2 manages to have a tutorial that teaches the imprtant of dodging and all that. That makes every player realise that "I have to know and practise this mechanic or I die!", in a very fun way. If they manage that I can't see that it will be bad for being less linear. Sure, the skill caps will still be widly different.
But look at how many play CoD and BF. Game with extremely high skill roofs yet easy to play. They also generally have tutorials.

One of the biggest things GW2 can take from one of WoWs (and many other MMOs) biggest misses. Have a good, understandable, and most importantly fun! Tutorial.

[Autofollow]

Guildwars 2, at its base shouldn't be any harder than games like Elders Scrolls: Oblivion, Team Fortress 2 or any other FPS. Looking out for yourself is a basic skill in games. And death isn't very punishing in GW2, so even if it is too difficult for some people, they aren't out of the action long.
And I challenge the idea that people want WoW to be easier. Some might. I don't think it's a majority.

I agree but along the same lines I have to wonder what the end game will feel like. Personally I don't know how they will balance the end game encounters around this type of setup.

[omlech]

I agree but along the same lines I have to wonder what the end game will feel like. Personally I don't know how they will balance the end game encounters around this type of setup.

I think that at 80 when they design DEs they'll be more complex/involved/difficult than the rest, they said they're going to design elite areas that will be very challenging. So I think that what people are going to have to understand is that you're going to have to rely on people, even outside your guild, you're going to have to communicate to get things done, no more lone wolf solo crap that is so rampant in gaming these days. Though you could apply this to the entire game and that's how it should be, it is an MMO after all.

[oplawlz]

I really can't wait to see how pve raids are going to turn out, not having a dedicated healer to keep you alive when you stand in fire should flush out the keyboard turners.

For the people who doubt the viability in pvp, just google gw2 pvp and watch some of the official vids where player teams faced the devs. I think totalbiscuit did a couple too, although I might be getting that mixed up (not looking up vids for before coffee :P) It looks absolutely amazing, and I for one cannot wait for this game to launch.

[ThisWillNotStand]

If lack of dedicated healers keeps more wow players out of GW2, then I think it will play out just fine. I'd hate to have a bunch of incompetent players on my team who complain that they can't stay alive because someone isn't taking care of them while they're getting hit by every mob, because they're trying to "max out their dps".

GW2, just like GW1, will have a smaller player base of people who value skill over e-peen. GW1 had a lot of abilities that helped you heal yourself outside of the healer classes, and GW2 just builds on that with the ability to dodge for everyone and lack of tank/healer/dps specific classes.

Bring it on.

[omlech]

If lack of dedicated healers keeps more wow players out of GW2, then I think it will play out just fine. I'd hate to have a bunch of incompetent players on my team who complain that they can't stay alive because someone isn't taking care of them while they're getting hit by every mob, because they're trying to "max out their dps".

GW2, just like GW1, will have a smaller player base of people who value skill over e-peen. GW1 had a lot of abilities that helped you heal yourself outside of the healer classes, and GW2 just builds on that with the ability to dodge for everyone and lack of tank/healer/dps specific classes.

Bring it on.

This is true, also I do think it's interesting that everyone focuses on there not being a dedicated healer but make no mention of there not being a dedicated tank nor any taunting abilities either. People seem fixated on not having a healer but still assume that there's a tank cause some classes wear plate and can have a shield therefore they're going to tank. Big surprise coming for those people when they get smashed into the ground.

[fishious]

To be frank, for those of us who have been playing MMOs for nearly or over a decade, the Trinity is old, tired, and broken. We're looking for a change and that change is GW2.

This so many times. I've played EQ since release, and even when I was moving from EQ to EQ2 I was tired of the Trinity model. It always just felt so limiting, especially in raids. I can't wait to see how a non-trinity game works out. It was the first thing I heard about GW2 and said 'Oh my gosh. No regular group set up? This game could be interesting.'

[vossvicks]

This so many times. I've played EQ since release, and even when I was moving from EQ to EQ2 I was tired of the Trinity model. It always just felt so limiting, especially in raids. I can't wait to see how a non-trinity game works out. It was the first thing I heard about GW2 and said 'Oh my gosh. No regular group set up? This game could be interesting.'

If you actually played EQ since released you'd know that the trinity is actually a bastardization of the true paradigm of tank, healer, damage, support. Dropping it down to tank and damage is going to do nothing but further destroy the genre.

[Muzjhath]

Vossvicks, what game is dropping down to tank and damage? I'm curious since GW2 won't have tanks.

[omlech]

If you actually played EQ since released you'd know that the trinity is actually a bastardization of the true paradigm of tank, healer, damage, support. Dropping it down to tank and damage is going to do nothing but further destroy the genre.

But there are no tanks and DPS, it's now everyone doing control/damage/support at the same time.

[fishious]

If you actually played EQ since released you'd know that the trinity is actually a bastardization of the true paradigm of tank, healer, damage, support. Dropping it down to tank and damage is going to do nothing but further destroy the genre.

Well if you're going to go that far as to call support it's own role then you better give pullers their own role too. Let's not forget about the Monks (and Bards mainly after Luclin)! I was the lead puller/raid leader for my guild from NToV, to VT, and Gates of Discord raid zones I can't spell. I liked the diversity of EQ when I played it, but that's because it was new and interesting. Shit could get out of control quick if everyone didn't do their job. Especially in GoD instances... Vxed and that other one? I am interested in GW2 combat because now ALL of these roles are encompassed in each class to varying degrees. Control is important, taking/preventing damage is important, and healing is even MORE important because the 'oh shit' buttons have a 15-60 second cooldown on them.

tl;dr I don't feel that this is the bastardization of the different roles. I feel it is a redistribution of the goods so that everyone can do a bit of it all.

[AlamarAtMMOC]

I think Charlie Sheen best said it.............


Everybody will get to contribute more for the overall success of the team.

Holy hell Sheen is old... I have to check... born in 65... He looks another decade or two older in some of those video shots...

As for the lack of a healing role... Some people are really going to miss that... Plenty of people only play healers, and don't like to tank or dps, so plenty of people are going to have a lot of trouble adjusting (not just the bad players that rely on the healer to heal them through avoidable damage everyone keeps bringing up in these kinds of threads).

-Alamar

[Ynna]

As for the lack of a healing role... Some people are really going to miss that... Plenty of people only play healers, and don't like to tank or dps, so plenty of people are going to have a lot of trouble adjusting (not just the bad players that rely on the healer to heal them through avoidable damage everyone keeps bringing up in these kinds of threads).

-Alamar

Arenanet themselves have stated that they think that those players don't actually enjoy healing, but rather supporting the group, and that they should like playing a Guardian. Personally, I'm curious to see how that will play out, since I'm not convinced that "traditional healers" will fully embrace the front-line aspect of the Guardian.

[Fencers]

Tanks didn't really become central in almost any MMO you see until WoW became big.

Actually, tanks were very important to EQ. WOW made a lot of concepts more popular than was seen in earlier games- UO, AC, Shadowbane, etc. Which either had not tanks as you accurately describe or used the EQ system of: Tank, Heals & Crowd Control. The original trinity.

We can safely blame WOW in popularizing DPS in place of CC as part of the Trinity.

You're totally right though on all accounts.

[Althazina]

I love the aspect of no dedicated healers. I played a healer myself for two years, and while I liked being able to carry pretty much any PuG when something went wrong, I found that the part of being a healer I loved the most was the challenge of keeping everyone alive (and in general being supportive), not the actual healing mechanics itself. A good group where everyone knew what they were doing actually made my job so terribly boring it wasn't funny, and I was delighted when people told me they were a new tank or were slightly under-geared. I switched to tanking and dpsing for a little while when I was bored of healing, and found I liked tanking too because I liked being able to 'protect' the group and deal some damage once in a while.

From the sound of GW2, it seems like I'll be able to do all those things at the same time (well, a little bit of all those things, for the most part) which is pretty fantastic. I like being the jack of all trades and juggling aggro, buffs/debuffs and health bars. At least if someone dies I won't feel like it's entirely my fault anymore. I can be the all-star I want to be without the weight of 'it's your fault if he dies' looming over my head.

[Mif]

I love the aspect of no dedicated healers. I played a healer myself for two years, and while I liked being able to carry pretty much any PuG when something went wrong, I found that the part of being a healer I loved the most was the challenge of keeping everyone alive (and in general being supportive), not the actual healing mechanics itself. A good group where everyone knew what they were doing actually made my job so terribly boring it wasn't funny, and I was delighted when people told me they were a new tank or were slightly under-geared. I switched to tanking and dpsing for a little while when I was bored of healing, and found I liked tanking too because I liked being able to 'protect' the group and deal some damage once in a while.

From the sound of GW2, it seems like I'll be able to do all those things at the same time (well, a little bit of all those things, for the most part) which is pretty fantastic. I like being the jack of all trades and juggling aggro, buffs/debuffs and health bars. At least if someone dies I won't feel like it's entirely my fault anymore. I can be the all-star I want to be without the weight of 'it's your fault if he dies' looming over my head.

Sounds like you'll fit right in