Shadowpriest 4.3 BIS list - who's carrying the torch?

[ambident]

please make a troll profile with the healer shoulders

[Tihr]

please make a troll profile with the healer shoulders

http://chardev.org/?profile=273828

[mmff4]

The reason why most Priests opt for the Alysrazor legs is because the tier legs lack haste, whereas the Alysrazor ones give a really decent chunk of it, and possibly take the Priest over the next haste plateau.

Stop spreading false information. There are no haste plateaus for shadow priests.

http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=30171

[Tihr]

Stop spreading false information. There are no haste plateaus for shadow priests.

http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=30171

Gaining an extra DoT tick is worth about 40 PP or so, as it says in your post there. You can see from the list I posted that the difference between the tier shoulders and Alysrazor legs is almost exactly 40 PP, so gaining that extra tick would make them roughly equal. Maybe 'plateau' was a bad word to use, but you DO gain damage from getting extra DoT ticks. Don't get all defensive.

[ambident]

the profile you posted sims significantly lower.

---------- Post added 2011-11-13 at 12:30 PM ----------

edit: hang on, screwed something up

---------- Post added 2011-11-13 at 12:34 PM ----------

it's still simming lower, the first run i was changing your professions to match the one in my profile and i thought it said alchemy so i didn't take out the JC only gems.

---------- Post added 2011-11-13 at 01:09 PM ----------

I changed it so both profiles have tailor/ench, also changed it so both profiles have 50 haste on boots.

Using Hesp's own weightings and adding up the total int/crit/haste/mastery per profile while ignoring hit since both are capped, ignoring nf proc because both have it, ignoring spellpower because it would double dip in my favor...
The h rag glove profile comes out on top.
Using the weightings simcraft gives me post sim
The h rag glove profile comes out on top.

[eErike]

Gaining an extra DoT tick is worth about 40 PP or so, as it says in your post there. You can see from the list I posted that the difference between the tier shoulders and Alysrazor legs is almost exactly 40 PP, so gaining that extra tick would make them roughly equal. Maybe 'plateau' was a bad word to use, but you DO gain damage from getting extra DoT ticks. Don't get all defensive.

Using the http://chardev.org/?profile=273854 profile I get (using the both sets own statweights) that the set with rag gloves offset is about .8 dps better than offsetting with healing shoulders. This is fully buffed and at 50k litterations using a mean value between three sims on each set. While the difference is nothing to actually care about, getting the gloves might be easier than taking a whole new token from someone else in the raid

Edit: Used alch for one and JC for the other, should be fixed now
Edit, something messes up trying to switch proffs, letting one be in JC/alch and the other in JC/ench seems to be the only way to get them as they should.

[ambident]

for patchwerk live 50k iterations 500 sec fight length w/di w/o fm, rag hand profile was about 500 dps higher.

seems like too big of a difference to me...

[Izzirez]

As per the topic of this thread, I did go through and finally make a 4.3 BiS List. Please see the thread I created for the entire list, and please post any potential changes you think should be made.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...hadow-BiS-List

[Arlee]

Just to clarify a couple of things here. Yes a BiS should list the best pieces of gear for each slot available. However, if you only limit the list to the absolute best pieces for each slot the list would be far less useful. As I am sure many of you have noticed just making a set out of everyone #1 slot piece rarely (if ever) yields a very good set. A BiS list is a tool to help people figure out what set would be the best for them, which more than ever is an individual thing (read no one set will be the best set for everyone).

So basically any BiS list that is posted that does not give a ranking for at the vary least all the gear available for the current tier (4.3 in this case) it won't be supported. Also, it helps if you give at least some basic info on how you went about figuring out the weightings of different items because it helps to give the list some context.

[Izzirez]

Just to clarify a couple of things here. Yes a BiS should list the best pieces of gear for each slot available. However, if you only limit the list to the absolute best pieces for each slot the list would be far less useful. As I am sure many of you have noticed just making a set out of everyone #1 slot piece rarely (if ever) yields a very good set. A BiS list is a tool to help people figure out what set would be the best for them, which more than ever is an individual thing (read no one set will be the best set for everyone).

So basically any BiS list that is posted that does not give a ranking for at the vary least all the gear available for the current tier (4.3 in this case) it won't be supported. Also, it helps if you give at least some basic info on how you went about figuring out the weightings of different items because it helps to give the list some context.

No offense Arlee, but the list I put together is a Best In Slot list, not a "4.3 Gear Rankings" list. A single set WILL be the best in slot for the T13 tier and will be the penultimate set of 4.3. Slight differences in racials can change the rankings and those should be calculated per those players, but it is still possible to make a top dps set. By definition, a Best In Slot List is a list of the best gear available at that point in time, not a gear rankings list to figure out what upgrades you should get. I understand not everyone will have an opportunity to every piece of gear available at all (heroic, heroic endboss) levels, but that should be figured out by the individual player or by someone wanting to put together a "Gear Rankings" list for 4.3.

When I get around to running the set through SimCraft and finishing up all the final reforgings and item swaps I will post the SimCraft results and the item weights, showing how each piece was calculated, but that will have to wait for the list to be finished and those calculations to be done.

[ambident]

As stated by a previous poster, best in slot is best in slot, not merely the best of what you have access to. For t12, the bis option was to take the healing shoulders as your offset

Hesp, I thought it was a little presumptuous when you felt the need to explain stat weightings and what itemization meant. I also apologize to the op for aiding in the derailment of this thread. Nothing grinds my gears like misinformation though.

Some of us have a vested interest here! I have the h shoulders and h helm for both ms and os, and if I'm doing something wrong I really appreciate that there is somebody here to point that out. However, when you state as fact something that neither the theorycrafting community, nor top players appear to accept you might find a little bit of resistance.
Here are two profiles, both have the same race, professions, and enchants.
http://chardev.org/?profile=273872
http://chardev.org/?profile=274259
using the stat weights that you provided, the h rag glove setup is worth more.

Here's a rather contrived example of why you can't always just use the pp of hit/spi without considering a) hit cap b) reforging

I don't want to make a full chardev profile for this but say I am an spriest that just got the heroic tier gloves. I am currently 20 rating under the hit cap. As you probably know the tier gloves have a blue +10 int socket.
I have reforged crit/mastery into spirit on all of my items except one, a ring with 50 haste 50 mastery (horribly underbudget i know!)
What should I gem?

using your pp values:
Spirit = 0.5901
Hit = 0.5911
Crit = 0.4499
Haste = 0.5218
Mastery = 0.4584

So a 20 spirit/20 int gem nets me 30 int + 20 * .5901 or 41.80 pp (I can add and multiply too)
It's worth it! It's an upgrade!

Well, it is if we ignore the fact that we can and should reforge the ring's mastery into hit instead.

If we reforge and gem 40 int instead we lose 20 mastery and gain 10 int. 40 int overall is 40pp
If we don't reforge and gem int/spi we gain 20 mastery and lose 10 int. 30 int 20 mastery overall is 39.2pp NOT 41.8 like previously assumed.

So the issue is, it isn't always so simple to just multiply x by y and say that this item is better than that.

Like I said earlier I do have the healing shoulders, and I can tell you without a doubt that yes the item is better itemized and also that wearing it would be a dps loss or dps neutral for me specifically (in non bis gear.) The reason that other spriests don't use the healing shoulders is not that they like haste or hate haste, it's that they're not bis, there are higher dps alternatives.

[Pontificate]

As per the topic of this thread, I did go through and finally make a 4.3 BiS List. Please see the thread I created for the entire list, and please post any potential changes you think should be made.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...hadow-BiS-List

Thanks Zero, it's great to see this. Best post in this thread.

BTW, I used to be on Andorhal about 2 servers or so ago, I hope Simple Math is doing well, I'm sure they're still top guild on the server.

[Izzirez]

Thanks Zero, it's great to see this. Best post in this thread.

BTW, I used to be on Andorhal about 2 servers or so ago, I hope Simple Math is doing well, I'm sure they're still top guild on the server.

Thanks Pont. And they are doing extremely well. Only US 48 for 25m after our H Rag kill but I'm sure we'll get higher in DS :P I've only been with them for a little over 2 months but I love it here.

[Arlee]

No offense Arlee, but the list I put together is a Best In Slot list, not a "4.3 Gear Rankings" list. A single set WILL be the best in slot for the T13 tier and will be the penultimate set of 4.3. Slight differences in racials can change the rankings and those should be calculated per those players, but it is still possible to make a top dps set. By definition, a Best In Slot List is a list of the best gear available at that point in time, not a gear rankings list to figure out what upgrades you should get. I understand not everyone will have an opportunity to every piece of gear available at all (heroic, heroic endboss) levels, but that should be figured out by the individual player or by someone wanting to put together a "Gear Rankings" list for 4.3.

When I get around to running the set through SimCraft and finishing up all the final reforgings and item swaps I will post the SimCraft results and the item weights, showing how each piece was calculated, but that will have to wait for the list to be finished and those calculations to be done.

A Best Set list (if even one piece is not the highest rated piece for that slot) is not a Best in Slot list no matter how much you may want it to be. Honestly... it really is that simple. A tool that gives more information rather than less is an infinitely more useful tool and that is also a fact. You can post your picks for best set, I am not saying you can't.

All I am saying is, if you are posting a best set listing, do not call it a BiS list, because that is incredibly misleading.

[eErike]

A Best Set list (if even one piece is not the highest rated piece for that slot) is not a Best in Slot list no matter how much you may want it to be. Honestly... it really is that simple. A tool that gives more information rather than less is an infinitely more useful tool and that is also a fact. You can post your picks for best set, I am not saying you can't.

All I am saying is, if you are posting a best set listing, do not call it a BiS list, because that is incredibly misleading.

No, what you are resfering to is some sort of a "What's ebtter in slot" list.
BiS is simply what item will be the best tiem one can ever have in this slot, that's why you can tweak in "lesser" gearpieces and say they are "BiS" because in the end, they WILL be be best item you can have equiped in that slot.

[Arlee]

No.. literally a Best in Slot listing has always been a Listing of items by how good they are in each slot. It's one of the things some people have said they don't like about them, because often if you take all the items that are number one then you would not have hit cap and it is not a functional set. However, that is why it is Best in Slot... any list that compares across slots is not actually a Best in Slot list. I don't understand why this concept is suddenly hard.

[eErike]

No.. literally a Best in Slot listing has always been a Listing of items by how good they are in each slot. It's one of the things some people have said they don't like about them, because often if you take all the items that are number one then you would not have hit cap and it is not a functional set. However, that is why it is Best in Slot... any list that compares across slots is not actually a Best in Slot list. I don't understand why this concept is suddenly hard.

For me the name rather sugests that a BiS item is the best item to have in that slot when aiming for a maximum dps. Following that rule what ZeroAvix posted is indeed a BiS list (a list of the best in slot items).
Best: To be what gives the most satifying result.
In: A description of a possition that is somehow surrounded by something else.
Slot: A (narrow) opening through which an object can pass/fit.

Being so stubborn and frankly, a bit rude, about something as "BiS" is rather stupid as the word itself is impossible to trace back to it's origin and therefor the it's actuall meaning. It's like trying to describe a shape of a cloud instead of "that" cloud.

[Kelesti]

For me the name rather sugests that a BiS item is the best item to have in that slot when aiming for a maximum dps. Following that rule what ZeroAvix posted is indeed a BiS list (a list of the best in slot items).
Best: To be what gives the most satifying result.
In: A description of a possition that is somehow surrounded by something else.
Slot: A (narrow) opening through which an object can pass/fit.

Being so stubborn and frankly, a bit rude, about something as "BiS" is rather stupid as the word itself is impossible to trace back to it's origin and therefor the it's actuall meaning. It's like trying to describe a shape of a cloud instead of "that" cloud.

But that's not what Best-in-Slot means. It means "The best itemized gloves that's out there, even if I suffer from loss of hit and have to make that up elsewhere, or use different gloves".

Best in Slot means The best itemized peice of individual gear per a particular slot, to be looked at independently. There are sites and groups of people out there that go out of their way to make "Best Gear Sets", but it's not a "Best in Slot" list, that's just not what it functionally means.

[Tihr]

I think you're all just being anal. You know what he means by BiS list. There's no need to be nit-pick.

[Deathzero]

BEST IN SLOT. How one approaches this is relative to a persons train of thought. You can look at best in slot as a gear set as a relative overall best in slot where all the gear will amount to the highest achieved stat/dps output. OR you can view Best in slot as a ABSOLUTE Best in Slot where each slot is geared on the VERY BEST for just that SLOT. This would be an ABSOULTE Best in slot where even if you gear each slot to the highest PP per slot you may not achieve the highest dps output.