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  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I dont agree with you at all Zakaluka about when to use CoH;
    "CoH cost increase doesn't hurt us that much - you'll just have to adjust your playstyle. Basically you won't be using CoH until you're really dumping HARD, and frankly that's when smart heals are most useful anyway."

    CoH is almost never overhealing even with light damage. It's the perfect spell to actually use w/e you can. PoH however have completly different requirements, so do Sanctuary.

    What is hurting Holy vs Disc when raidhealing with PoH is the much too strong Aegis, who is rarely overheal since it will last for so long that damage will for sure happen before it wears off. I would like Aegis to be brought down to 6 sec on PoH and reduced a bit in effeciancy. The PoH Aegis also rewards overhealing a lot, and God knows Disc can afford it.

  2. #22
    High Overlord Mikayo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vook View Post
    I'm at 3100 spirit unbuffed in my Holy set. (3500 if I use Fiery Quintessence) I must be doing something horribly, horribly wrong if I'm having mana issues with a ridiculous amount of spirit.
    Not trying to be mean, but you probably are.

  3. #23
    I personally had no idea H Priests were in such a bad position in FL until I started really frequenting various forums (I was the only raiding healing Priest in my guild for a long time). I'm really looking forward to the Divine Hymn change, especially now that our 10 man group doesn't have a Resto Druid anymore.

    I'm quite curious though, with the mana reduction to HW: Sanctuary will it be more viable to cast with any frequency in a 10 man environment? Or should it still be avoided like the plague unless 8+ players are stacked?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Vook View Post
    I'm at 3100 spirit unbuffed in my Holy set. (3500 if I use Fiery Quintessence) I must be doing something horribly, horribly wrong if I'm having mana issues with a ridiculous amount of spirit.
    I only run into issues if I don't use fiend early enough or try to overplay my role and just outheal everyone.. otherwise no, I don't. And I run 2700 Spirit and SoW/Eye of Blazing Power (or Jaws depending).

    What exactly are you doing that you're having these mana problems? :/
    Pixl Returned! Holy Priest

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I would like Aegis to be brought down to 6 sec on PoH and reduced a bit in effeciancy. The PoH Aegis also rewards overhealing a lot, and God knows Disc can afford it.
    But brought down to 6 seconds, it'd become overheal 9/10 times. This isn't WOTLK, there aren't tons of lame aura fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    What exactly are you doing that you're having these mana problems? :/
    I have no idea. Playing the same way I was back in T11, and I didn't have mana issues then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    SoW; that explains a lot, though. I wonder just how much spirit it is equal to on an average fight.

  7. #27
    If I can heal Heroic Rag (without shard of woe) I'm sure. I can heal Heroic DS. Will I be pulling my hair out? Absolutly.

    Oh and for the record I two heal H Rag with 2.7k spirit and jaws/burning eye. I don't see how you can not have severe mana issues on that fight.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post

    It's basically backwards in 4.2. Holy gets insane spike capability + pretty bad efficiency. Disc gets one spike every 2 minutes but outside that pretty bad spike capability, and really great efficiency, plus a much larger manapool.
    That's not true, disc has 2 burst CDs, Barrier and PI; and you should rotate through them for each heavy damage phase. My favored rotation is first phase, pop barrier and PoH spam; second phase, pop PI and PoH spam; third phase pre-shield 1 group if i have mana problems, pre-shield both groups if not.

    And if you have Jaws of Defeat, you can pop PI and pre-shield before the heavy damage then PoH spam for god-mode healing.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Fact is with these changes disc will still be the better choice, atleast for 10 man. Holy will still be worse due to a few simple things. First off their mana regen - Holy need soo much spirit to keep up the output of disc. This mana regen might be better with a ton of spirit but the output will still lack behind disc since disc dont need a ton of spirit and therefore disc will have higher stats. Buffing hym and giving holy a better copy of the drood's tranq will not make them better than disc. The fact is that the hym is most likely going to be most overheal unless ppl really suck.

    The consistency of disc healing is way better than holy. Some ppl said that if you bring 3 healers to the raid the holy priest is pretty equal, which leades me to my next question. Why would you bring a not needet 3rd healer in a raid just to make holy suck less? Cant speak for any hc bosses but i have personally killed all but 1 boss (normal) on ptr and we did all of them with 2 healers (paladin and disc) and 2 healers where plenty due to disc's insane manaregen.

    With my current gear my rapture translates to 6k ish mp5 and my spirit gives me 2k mp5 totalling 8k mp5. For holy to have 8k mp5 they will need to have insane amounts of spirit and then they will loose out on int, mastery, crit or haste just to match the regen. And with that amount of spirit their output will drop even more - Its a lost course

    Dont get me wrong i like the new changes to holy but the fact is that until holy gets some way of matching the manaregen of disc they will not be on par. Sure holy might be durable but why choose a spec with half the regen and less output and make it harder on yourself?

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Very wise words Mithranlas. I think what Holy will idd fall on is Mp5, cause Dragon Soul is a mad, mad place when it comes to heavy raid damage... Even in LFR/Normals.

    As I wrote in other threads; Holy will be very fine for normals, but when it comes to heroic, I believe Disc's CD's, output and especially manaregen will be so much stronger, it will be no doubt what specc will perform better. Let's take PWB for example: 25ppl x 100k dmg x 2 pulses x 0,20= 1 mil mitigated damage. And I believe it is not impossible at all that number could turn out to be the double in DS. I believe Mitigate dmg>heal damage is always safer aswell.

    We can probably go Holy for hardmodes IF: We already have a Disc+Pala to tankheal and rotate CD's. Like right now, kind of!

    Yes, we will keep "scaling down" as Holy will want more Spirit, while other classes won't need it and can get output stats instead, I am afraid.


    //A pessimists guessings.

  11. #31
    Holy does not have "less throughput" than Disc. Not in the least. Mana regen is what's sucking for us. Even with my shitton of Spirit, I was still running OOM while other healers weren't.

    And I do agree about the whole "Disc for hardmodes" thing. I mean, Blizz said they DIDN'T want guilds forcing their healing priests to be Disc, yet that's about to happen all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vook View Post
    Holy does not have "less throughput" than Disc. Not in the least. Mana regen is what's sucking for us. Even with my shitton of Spirit, I was still running OOM while other healers weren't.
    If you bothered to read the whole post rather than just 2 lines, you would have come to the point. In order to keep up the regen you will loose on output stats therefore having less output, since you dont have the endless mana that disc has to back it up.

    Love how ppl think its an attack at holy when it in reality its just facs... if you go oom you cant heal >< if you have endless mana you can

  13. #33
    Tbh, I'm kind of worried about Holy for 4.3. Right now, its mana regen seems to suck compared to disc. IE, 4healing H rag, mana is really tight as Holy, but a joke as Disc. Like, I wear non-spirit pieces and a DPS trinket for Disc and mana is still a joke. I really want to go mainspec Holy on 4.3 because of the buffs, but it doesn't look like that will happen with Holy's crap regen.
    This. Rapture gives roughly 3 times the amount of mana back that Holy Concentration does. You have to include the shield's cost in rapture, which brings them closer together, but you have to remember how efficient PW:Shield actually is for Disc. In a heavy mastery build, it does roughly TWICE the HPCT that POH does for Holy, including 0 overheal on Holy's mastery (just to make that clear: 1 PW:S does more healing than POH from Holy in Sanc stance does to 5 targets with no overheal). Once you are in a real-world situation, and Holy's mastery starts to overheal all over the place, PW:S really starts to take over. It costs a ton of mana, yes, but it is still very efficient.

    I am also running with 3100 Spirit+, I was running oom in HM Firelands at 2600 Spirit (at around 20% overheal like always) - *disclaimer* I am main spec Shadow, so I don't have Holy 4pc, and my item level is a bit behind - still our Boomkin can go Resto and do way better than I do with about the same gear. I think that has a lot to do with being a 10 man. Holy just can't fill the spot of a Resto Druid on heavy, constant raid damage fights like Beth'tilac or Rhyolith. They can do well, but unless you have a ridiculous amount of Spirit you can't fill the job solo like a Resto Druid can, especially if you don't have a Shaman backing you up with Mana Tides, which you are more likely not to have in 10 mans. Often, you end up 2 healing most of the HM fights because of DPS checks or the fact that it is simply overkill. Rhyo is one of these fights. On Beth'tilac you usually 3 heal, but one healer downstairs is trying to follow soakers and whatnot, and the brunt of the raid damage will be absorbed by the other healer, which would be theoretically the Holy Priest's job. You just can't do this kind of job without a ton of Spirit. In 25 mans, perhaps its better, since there's more people to stand in HW:Sanc, you are likely to have a Resto Shaman, and POH will have more opportunities to reach its full potential. However, in 10 mans, Holy's mana regen is just painfully bad. I took off 4pc t11 as Holy (for 2pc t12) and I still felt a sucking hole in my mana regen (probably because with 2pc t12 you have to pay mana to get mana, whereas with 4pc t11 it was essentially free), and Firey Quintessence is about the only thing that makes up for it.

    My GM the Disc Priest (the only reason I still go Holy, double disc just doesn't work out for us) is always asking why my Mana pool is so low. Well, I gem Int and I wear the highest ilvl I can, but I can't wear static int trinks w/o Spirit, and I have to wear lower ilvl at times to get the Spirit I need. Holy's problem isn't a cooldown problem. Holy has a Spirit problem, and it is really bad in 10 man.

    Some tips though:

    The one advantage to HC is that you don't have to do anything to make it work. So the best situation for HC is to simply stop casting. Just stand there and regen like it was Vanilla WOW. Don't try to fill with Heal or Renew or anything like that. Just wait for the next big burst and try to time your POH with it.

    Serendipity is not an HPS increase for POH. It is an increase if you can get your stacks before the big hit of damage goes out, but during the damage phase 2x Flash ---> POH is not an HPS increase, thanks to the amount of targets you are healing. 2x Binding ---> POH, however, is.

    HW:Sanc is an HPS increase because of high HPCT if you can get a lot of people to stand in it.
    Last edited by Felade; 2011-11-29 at 03:07 PM.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    You think you can survive with 2200k spirit as Holy in 4.3 hc raids, Mazi? 20% mana cost increase to CoH, massive AoE fights, Sanctuary.. I think far from it, I'll be aiming towards 4k
    I'm pretty sure 2,200,000 Spirit should be enough for anyone to spam whatever they want.

    Typos aside, I think the buffs look sweet, and I'm currently considering playing my Priest again.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithranlas View Post
    you will loose on output stats therefore having less output
    Throughput stats are not the only thing that gives you throughput. =/
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

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