Undead DK is it stupid or not?

[Deleted]

Well I just made a undead Deathknight without thinking of anything.
I was reading on the Wow-wiki how to roleplay a undead and it said that undeads hate the Scourge which I also understand.
Then it made we wonder what the undead thinks about the Deathknights and then I read somewhere, that a undead cant be a Deathknight and now im really confused.

It would be a pity to delete her because I like her somehow.
So what do you fellow roleplayers think? I really need a straight answer to this so I wont get confused.

[The Madgod]

Undead can be death knighs, same as everyone else. The third generation of death knights, considering that all of their former friends who you have to kill are wearing Argent Dawn tabards, were killed while battling Scourge in the Plaguelands. This means any race who could have possibly been there (IE: every playable race thus far) could become a death knight. This includes the undead we play as.

The Forsaken hate the Scourge, yes, but the death knights that we play as are not amoung the Scourge anymore. The Forsaken can tell the difference, and considering their history, would be the most accepting of the death knights. Both of them were enslaved by the Scourge, and now both groups are free.

[Inactivity]

While I don't RP I do prefer to call them "Forsaken Death Knights" - makes more sense otherwise, and also, "Undead Death Knight" has a bad taste in my mouth, feels kind of redundant (aren't all death knights technically "undead?")

[Varyk]

I wouldn't say it's "stupid". It's undoubtedly suboptimal, but it's fine if you are just worried about lore and not performance.

[Zehroh]

Can't be closer to a real death knight than any other races.

[Pakaso]

undead death knights have just died and been revived 2 times so its fine human to undead undead to death knight

[pateuvasiliu]

The second undeath probably makes your skin decay even more and your body more frail, but considering that you're imbued with unholy powers, you'd be stronger than in the first.

Your personality could also be affected: you can become more or less insane, or even wiser, as you already died twice, and one would think dieing twice would make you more cautious.

You can find an Undead DK character BIO in one of my threads,

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...harles-Rotgaze

[Deleted]

I think it's kind of stupid, lorewise.

If the Forsaken are the undead who managed to break free of the Lich King's influence and he wasn't able to come back and re-enslave them, how did the player Forsaken DKs come back under his spell? If he can re-assert his control over Forsaken, why didn't he just go back to Lordaeron and take back the whole race into his scourge army? if he can't be bothered going back to the Undercity then why didn't he use that power on Putriss et al at the Wrathgate? Or Sylvanas in the ICC 5mans? If the process of making you a DK involves making you undead, how can you use that process on someone who's already undead? You're double-undead? If the process of becoming a DK wipes your memories of your life before, how is a Forsaken DK any different from any human DK? After all, a human DK is an undead human and a Forsaken DK is...an undead human. Why would the Horde accept a Forsaken DK on their word that they are one of the Forsaken, rather than just a human DK with more advanced rot?

I think they shouldn't have allowed Forsaken DKs...and at the same time, banned one of the Alliance races for balance (I would be able to accept, for example, that the power of the Naaru would make the Draenei uncorruptable in that way).

[pateuvasiliu]

I think it's kind of stupid, lorewise.

If the Forsaken are the undead who managed to break free of the Lich King's influence and he wasn't able to come back and re-enslave them, how did the player Forsaken DKs come back under his spell? If he can re-assert his control over Forsaken, why didn't he just go back to Lordaeron and take back the whole race into his scourge army? if he can't be bothered going back to the Undercity then why didn't he use that power on Putriss et al at the Wrathgate? Or Sylvanas in the ICC 5mans? If the process of making you a DK involves making you undead, how can you use that process on someone who's already undead? You're double-undead? If the process of becoming a DK wipes your memories of your life before, how is a Forsaken DK any different from any human DK? After all, a human DK is an undead human and a Forsaken DK is...an undead human. Why would the Horde accept a Forsaken DK on their word that they are one of the Forsaken, rather than just a human DK with more advanced rot?

I think they shouldn't have allowed Forsaken DKs...and at the same time, banned one of the Alliance races for balance (I would be able to accept, for example, that the power of the Naaru would make the Draenei uncorruptable in that way).

Because forsaken DKs were killed and raised yet again in Acherus.

He didn't enslave them when they lived, he enslaved them after they were raised again.

You're double-undead?

Pretty much, yes.

[The Madgod]

The second undeath probably makes your skin decay even more and your body more frail, but considering that you're imbued with unholy powers, you'd be stronger than in the first.

Your personality could also be affected: you can become more or less insane, or even wiser, as you already died twice, and one would think dieing twice would make you more cautious.

More likely than not, no. There are skins of other races that are not rotten, though you can choose to have such a skin if you want. This means that the ritual of making someone into a death knight does not cause decay, only reanimates and bolsters the flesh with dark magic. If anything, considering that they are masters of necromancy, the death knight would be able to halt or even reverse the decay to an extent, healing tears and reforming muscle and bone, a more perverse form of healing.

The personality comment I would somewhat agree to. Though really a change in personality depends on a lot of things and can't necessarily just be put into the categories of insanity and wisdom, reanimation is a fairly traumatizing event. A good bit of the Forsaken and the Ebon Blade did have personality changes, even if it wasn't that much, perhaps they became more cruel towards some, perhaps becoming more sorrowful and depressed. Some of course became living embodiments of rage and hatred, but the point is that personality changes really for the most part are more varied than one or two tweaks.

[Deleted]

What's the confusion? All Death Knights were controlled and manipulated so there shouldn't be any confusion about what side the Forsaken are on. Come on. A lot of people, even IRL, end up "joining" their enemies or start doing things they truthfully hate.
I'd say if anything, an Undead Death Knight is the most interesting one. Psychological and stuff, yo.


It's not just about what your toon looks like. Get into the mind of your character if you want to be any good at roleplaying at all.

[pateuvasiliu]

More likely than not, no. There are skins of other races that are not rotten, though you can choose to have such a skin if you want.

Exposure to dark energies, such as fel and shadow, cause physical changes.

Look at LIVING members of the Cult of the Damned and even WC3 cultists and necromancers: they are all pale.

And they're very much alive.

Now imagine a dead body being exposed to that.

Magic corrupts the body; it ages the caster before their time and hastens the blight that the world inflicts on things fair and beautiful. Those who claim that only Necromancy and Fel Magic have a corrupting influence are fooling themselves.

If arcane corrupts the body imagine what a more unstable energy like Fel and Shadow does.

[Dirgon]

I didn't really think of them as "double undead" I thought of them as humans who decayed (into the forsaken form) and were raised as Death Knights, rather than typical scourge ghouls the rest of the Forsaken were raised as.

IMO it's one of only two races that makes sense for DKs (to me). Humans and Forsaken(former Humans) I don't see Arthas as caring about the rest of the races enough to want to bring them into his ranks. It's just a retcon to make players happy (imo)

Granted Orcs were the original death knights, but their bodies were Knights of Lorderan (i.e. Human)

On the "double undead" side of the arguement, you could just assume Arthas didn't raise the dead to be Death Knights, but rather ascended near-dead beings.

[The Madgod]

Exposure to dark energies, such as fel and shadow, cause physical changes.

Look at LIVING members of the Cult of the Damned and even WC3 cultists and necromancers: they are all pale.

And they're very much alive.

Now imagine a dead body being exposed to that.

If arcane corrupts the body imagine what a more unstable energy like Fel and Shadow does.

The sin'dorei used fel energy, suffused it into their being in order to sate their lust for magic, and their eyes only turned green. Whether a body is living or not, it is made of the same stuff: muscle, bone, organs. You still have to explain away why Blizzard allows people to choose healthy skin tones as third generation death knights as well as skins that are rotting or icy. It seems obvious that suffusing a corpse with necromantic magic does not cause deterioration of the skin and muscle tissue. If it did, it would be counter-productive for the Scourge, as death knights are supposed to be some of its most powerful warriors. Having a corpse who has muscle deterioration would simply be less powerful than it's peers, and would therefore be less useful. Having a humanoid creature who was freshly killed and was imbued with magic is going to always be better than a creature who died a while ago and was allowed to deteriorate before being imbued with magic. I highly doubt that the ritual to increase the power of a creature would also weaken it to an extent. I give the Lich King credit enough to create a spell - or sequence of spells - within a matrix that won't cause damage to the existing tissue.

[pateuvasiliu]

The sin'dorei used fel energy, suffused it into their being in order to sate their lust for magic, and their eyes only turned green.

They used small quantities and those that used more/drank demon blood look like these guys.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Felblood_elf

You still have to explain away why Blizzard allows people to choose healthy skin tones as third generation death knights as well as skins that are rotting or icy.

Attract players ? Give more customisation ? People hate ugly characters? Take your pick.

Having a corpse who has muscle deterioration would simply be less powerful than it's peers, and would therefore be less useful.

Death Knight strength stands in the unholy infusion, not in the muscle itself. Kinda like how the Forsaken can lift a sword, only much more.

I highly doubt that the ritual to increase the power of a creature would also weaken it to an extent.

I also doubt getting cut in two by a cleaver and then being sewn back makes you stronger than not being cut in two by a cleaver. Having less sinew is not a weakness as they are imbued with unholy energies, and that is the source of their power, not their flesh.

I give the Lich King credit enough to create a spell

I don't think they were raised by the Lich King tbh. For all we know, they could've been ressed by necromancers and only imbued with power by The LK.

[The Madgod]

From a lore perspective, the fact that Blizzard allows for healthy skin shows that the death knights could have been raised shortly after their deaths, then imbued with the magics, giving them their icy blue eyes, amoung other things. Undead and death knights still need to use muscle to move, though it is helped by the dark magics. Still, the less muscle a death knight has, the more magic needs to be used to compensate, and that is a waste of resources. The Lich King may not have personally raised the death knights, that doesn't even matter. It's the fact that their flesh is being imbued by the spells of the Lich King (as in spells created by, not necessarily direct casting) that matters, and I doubt that the Lich King would use magic on his supposed champions in a way that would weaken them as well as strengthen them. He has the experience and wisdom of Ner'Zhul and the power of Kil'Jaeden. He wouldn't do something that stupid. I would expect it from a plain necromancer, who uses their minions to overwhelm his opponents and doesn't care about quality, only quantity, but the Lich King was trying to take over the world, and he knows full well how intimidating the combined forces of the Alliance and Horde are. He has to go for both quantity and quality; every bit counts.

[pateuvasiliu]

would use magic on his supposed champions in a way that would weaken them as well as strengthen them.

When did I say it weakens them ? Rotting flesh, pale skin and some other minor impediments don't mean much for a dead man walking. And a steroid-infused one at that.

but the Lich King was trying to take over the world

Not with them.

The Third Generation of Death Knights were never meant to conquer the world. They were lambs to the slaughter, send to their deaths at Life's Hope with the only objective to die luring Tirion out of hiding.

The Betrayal is one of the reasons that Mograine and co. leave and create their own faction.

[Nonfictionless]

Death Knights were made to be the elite of his fighting force. He could make them strong and make quite a bit of them. I don't doubt he would of considered them all cannon-fodder, but he needed them. Even to attack Light's Hope. Drawing out Tirion, especially on holy ground would of required strong Knights. He wouldn't of made them lightly considering Tirion was his greatest enemy, attacking him and his paladin's with anything less would of been ridiculous.

I just don't see any of your points supported by anything in Lore, which is what we are discussing here. =\

[The Madgod]

It was part of your original thesis about Forsaken death knights.

The second undeath probably makes your skin decay even more and your body more frail, but considering that you're imbued with unholy powers, you'd be stronger than in the first.

And the Scarlet Crusade was a powerful force, the Lich King wanted them gone. Even then, I doubt he would intentionally make flaws in their creation. They were powerful, but he was moreso. He was confident about his victory over Light's Hope until Tirion attacked him with the purified Ashbringer. What reason would he have to intentionally make his minions less powerful when he could easily destroy them?

[SirTrollingsworth]

undead DKs actually make the most sense to me