"Zell has left the building." - discussion

[ssviolett]

Very nice written post. Actually I dislike "I quit" posts, but this is very well written and have many points I agree with.
From my point of view the game since WotLK is following the same scenario:
1) Bads start to cry about content is being too hard, they cant kill bosses and get lewtz
2) Instead of trying to teach people how to play Blizzard are nerfing the content and simplifying the game, promicing "this will be damn fun !!"
3) During next month Blizzard sees increase in the number of new subscribers, while old players understand what was promiced as fun actually is not fun at all
4) Old and skilled players leaving the game, bads become new "old and skilled players". New subscriptors, levelling from 1 to max learn absolutely nothing and become new bads, even worse than previous.
5) Bads start to cry about content is being too hard
...and so on...

Blizzard choosed easy way to develop the game, but the problem is I also do not see the way to make people learn how to play good. However, I'm not a developer, but they. They earn money for their job to make game better. Obviously they fail at it.
I believe Blizzard know the truth and probably they just letting the game die, because new products await - Diablo, Starcraft, and finally Titan. Company will earn their money, what means they will follow existing scenario.

I play since very vanilla release, and I support you, Zell. Farewell, my friend.

---------- Post added 2011-11-21 at 07:18 AM ----------

Additional to my last post:
Think about new LFR tool. First, I liked it, because this makes annoying process of finding people for my 10 people group a lot easier. But now I suddenly thought about the amount of bads will flood WoW. There will be wipes. Oh yes, a lot of them, even on bosses that are easier than normal Shannox today. I'm afraid that LFR is just a stairs to new level of people stupidity ...

[ambident]

Frustration and difficulty = failure, blaming others for the failure, and growing intolerance of anything that could lead to failure.

Remember how LFD was in late Wrath? Totally different, because it was easy.

even in cata, LFD was a lot more tolerable when you could queue with friends. as your friends started quitting, and you weren't replacing them with new ones, it turned into a frustrating crapshoot.

[Niyari]

i actually read the entire thing too, surprisingly. and while he brings up a lot of legit stuff, i don't think the game will ever go back to the way it was. they've changed it so much to accommodate for the rapidly growing casual (sorry) playerbase. i would love for the game to go back to the way it was with each server having a community etc, but that would mean the removal of the dungeon finder for one, something i don't think will ever happen at this point. there's also no way to know if going back to the way the game used to be would actually make the game more enjoyable since it might just be nostalgia making you think that way.

there's also the time factor. even with expansions changing up stuff little by little, the bare game is still the same. it's still Warcraft in a World (or City, harhar) with a unique art style. it's a given that the game will become less interesting over time... i know it has for me. Cata was the first expansion to make me freeze my account and i've been playing since day 1, tho part of that may be due to how lackluster this expansion was /shrug.

that said, i'm really looking forward to a lot of their proposed stuff for MoP. like bringing back meaningful world bosses and world pvp etc, stuff that brings the "World" back in the game. i'm sure if these changes are met with a lot of positive feedback (instead of nostalgia disappointing you) then they may consider doing more changes from the past to the game that the community wants.

[Hightotem]

I wouldn't of become a GM of a 25 man raiding guild if LFD was part of the game in TBC, I met a lot of players on my realm and got to know them doing dungeons and group dalies that you couldn't solo like you do now. It will be interesting to see how many GMs of raiding guilds there are now that started the game in wrath? From what I can tell all the current serious 25 man raiding guilds are being run by people that have been playing this game for awhile and that is probably another factor why 25 man raiding guilds are on the decline as when these players quit, there is no one stepping up to take there place.

[Pua]

Well then his opening post is a contradiction of himself.

Feel free to point out where (in the original post) I stated that LFD was the exclusive cause for the community decline. I stress that it's the biggest contributor, but I certainly don't think it's the only one.

---------- Post added 2011-11-21 at 08:41 AM ----------

I should also add, I really liked Inahu’s post; the remade world was a massive opportunity to get people out into it and it simply wasn’t taken up. You could literally have put level 85 quests into every zone. Even if they went down the route of, say, six dailies in each, players could either grind the quickest ones or have the variety of the old world.

[Deleted]

I read it all, and cannot find any completely invalid point by OP on the official forums.

LFD (looking for dungeon): I cant agree on that its LFD who made "bads", its the way its implemented. Generally its complete lack of player rating system which could be by gear AND by other player votes if "this guy was a good tank" or something. So, for example, it could group up players with similar rating/gear. Another aspect is votekick system. Its ratings should be more deep, and lots more aspects taken from dungeon running before: quitters, afkers, undergears, and so on, which would take immediate punishment in dungeons in pre-LFD era. In human-based player society its punishments who keep order, not free epix.

Word PvP: This have been absent even on PvP servers from start. Okay on new expansions there was some tensions because of "no room for both sides" for the quest mobs. Today its just a lol.

Talent system: Well old system had its flaws it had to be changed. But the way it has been changed is totally wrong.

ps. Could we have moderator here, please, who would simply coldheartedly delete all those "omg another guy quit why do I care" trolls, and make topic read-only for them?

[Bassnectar]

one person out of 10 million why should I care? Why is it such a big deal?

[ambident]

one person out of 10 million why should I care? Why is it such a big deal?

it's not a big deal, people have been quitting wow every day since it was released.
when there are more people quitting than there are joining it becomes a worrying trend though, and insight into why this is happening isn't necessarily harmful.

[Pua]

it's not a big deal, people have been quitting wow every day since it was released.
when there are more people quitting than there are joining it becomes a worrying trend though, and insight into why this is happening isn't necessarily harmful.

This is a point that too many people are forgetting in this whole “numbers game” that they try to play.

1) World of Warcraft is almost two million subscriptions smaller than at its peak. This doesn’t mean those two million have unsubscribed, it means that when you add the new players, the actual number of people who’ve unsubscribed must be bigger than 2 million.
2) “Subscription” does not mean “active player”. Don’t make the mistake in assuming that 10 million people are actively playing because that’s a gross overestimation.
3) Lastly, a high number of subscriptions says nothing about the quality of the game. Quality is NOT the same as popularity, as “artists” such as Britney Spears, the Pussycat Dolls or (whisper it) Justin Bieber will attest.

Numbers are as objective as the context they’re painted in. The three listed assumptions, however, are conveniently peddled as “facts” whenever anyone criticises World of Warcraft.

Essentially, this is the crux of why I posted in the first place. Blizzard are not interested in making a better game as much as they’re interested in making it more profitable.

This is a (very) rough definition of “selling out”.

[Aktavite]

Feel free to point out where (in the original post) I stated that LFD was the exclusive cause for the community decline. I stress that it's the biggest contributor, but I certainly don't think it's the only one.

---------- Post added 2011-11-21 at 08:41 AM ----------

I should also add, I really liked Inahu’s post; the remade world was a massive opportunity to get people out into it and it simply wasn’t taken up. You could literally have put level 85 quests into every zone. Even if they went down the route of, say, six dailies in each, players could either grind the quickest ones or have the variety of the old world.

You've got me. I can't find what I was pointing too.

None the less, I do have some concerns.

"In one fell swoop, server communities took an absolute hammering, the world shrank to the size of the most convenient capital city, and personal responsibility went the way of the dodo."

When wasn't this the case? Prior to the LFD if you wanted to run a dungeon you spent your time spamming trade in the major capital city LFG and what classes/roles you needed. And as shown above, personal responsibility was also being flaunted before the LFD, we had one player post his ninja skills on these forums. And what's more people congratulated him on it. I'd also like to know how you came to the conclusion that the developers had blamed "casuals" for this apparent decline?

These are the following concerns of yours that are confusing:

I can’t run multiple endgame dungeons to farm gear for entry level raids.
Wasn't there a loophole put in by the developers, allowing for people to do the same heroic in a lock out cycle if they've completed it already?

I can’t build up a server reputation as a good player by tanking for groups.
Why not? Why can't you resort to using trade chat like it was done previously? Don't you think people would jump at the opportunity to get into an instant queue? Don't you think that by doing it more and more on your server and exposing yourself to the other players on your server you just might build a reputation as a good tank?

I can’t choose which endgame zones to quest in as there aren’t enough.
Given the increasingly large XP pool required to hit the level cap, this sounds rather picky.
From the Loremaster achievment we can see the following:
TBC: 562 quests - 10 levels
WotLK: 875 quests - 10 levels
Cata: 590 quests - 5 levels

There is obviously a lot more content for leveling in Cata than in previous x-packs. Wouldn't the smarter thing be, to suggest a change in XP required per level?

I can’t specialize my professions for more expensive, yet exclusive, options.
What would those exclusive options entail?

Most players will never even know what the Scepter of the Shifting Sands is, or how wonderful the quest line to achieve it was.
A great quest line indeed. But the requirements to complete that quest line were above the ability of the majority of players.

And to be honest, it sounds as if you're whining because you're no longer that special snowflake for the masses to worship.

[Pua]

Hello, Aktavite – and don’t sweat the misrepresentation, it’s easy to read something on a post this big and attribute it incorrectly. I’ve done it three times in this thread already.

When wasn't this the case? Prior to the LFD if you wanted to run a dungeon you spent your time spamming trade in the major capital city LFG and what classes/roles you needed.

The first couple of weeks this was the case, but once I had a decent reputation I found myself being whispered more often than I did the whispering. That reputation meant something to me precisely because I earned it.

And as shown above, personal responsibility was also being flaunted before the LFD, we had one player post his ninja skills on these forums. And what's more people congratulated him on it. I'd also like to know how you came to the conclusion that the developers had blamed "casuals" for this apparent decline?

I’m comfortable accepting that the community was never always perfect, but it certainly wasn’t as bad as it is now in my opinion. Even a thread like this, where the OP (though quoting me) was clear about the point, was pointlessly trolled.

I have no problem holding this discussion with you because, though you disagree with me, you’re comfortable stating why. And you know what? That’s okay. Your opinion is every bit as valid as mine.

As for casuals taking the blame – if you read most of the correspondence about greater ease of access, you’ll continually see Blizzard representatives blaming those on “smaller timeframes” and even refer to these players directly as “casuals”.

Casuals are not to blame; baddies are. I really wish people would stop considering the two mutually inclusive.

Wasn't there a loophole put in by the developers, allowing for people to do the same heroic in a lock out cycle if they've completed it already?

I’m talking about level-cap normal dungeons. Back during TBC or earlier, you could use level-cap dungeons to gear up for entry-level raids and you could spend a whole night doing them. In TBC particularly, the concept of “the heroic dungeon” was introduced as a way for those who didn’t have the time to commit to raiding guilds (as in, casuals) to find viable PvE endgame.

By removing them (three in Cataclysm, none coming in MoP), you’re actually removing endgame for casual players. Further, choosing to nerf heroics removes THAT avenue of progression for casual players who want to develop for a period where they might have time to devote to a raid guild.

The argument against heroics being heroic is one-dimensional; if I’m farming Valor points, I shouldn’t need to take 90 minutes to do so. Fine – put Valor farming on normal level cap dungeons, and put single epic drops at the end of heroic dungeons so that there’s still a reason to run them.

Don't you think people would jump at the opportunity to get into an instant queue? Don't you think that by doing it more and more on your server and exposing yourself to the other players on your server you just might build a reputation as a good tank?

You’ve no reason to believe me, but I did. I put a lot of effort into doing my daily heroic in trade and encouraging others to do likewise, but it simply didn’t catch on – why? Because queuing up yourself nets you more rewards than queuing up with people from your own server.

There is obviously a lot more content for leveling in Cata than in previous x-packs. Wouldn't the smarter thing be, to suggest a change in XP required per level?

Absolutely. I think that’s a fine idea. But it’s not related to this complaint; my point is that there aren’t enough zones for you to be able to choose which to do. You can do either Mount Hyjal or Vash’jir, then you’re locked into Deepholm, Uldum and the Twilight Highlands. There’s also no level cap replaying value because… There are no more zones.

What would those exclusive options entail?

I’m specifically talking about my Blazefury and Lionheart Executioner. Professions are now stat-adders, nothing more. When WotLK launched and specializations were gutted, professions became utterly dull and boring.

A great quest line indeed. But the requirements to complete that quest line were above the ability of the majority of players.

Not at level 70 or 80, when it remained brilliant if you followed the story.

And to be honest, it sounds as if you're whining because you're no longer that special snowflake for the masses to worship.

I appreciate your honesty and thank you for showing me the courtesy that you have.

Again, believe it or not, I appreciate it.

[namelessone]

I actually would like to discuss about the idea brought into his post, rather then the fact that he quit.

Well, go ahead and start discussing. You copy-paste the quit post and hope the discussion will just magically spring up from the ground, like some tolkienesque dwarf?

[Deleted]

I usually just laugh at the "omg QQ i quit" threads, but this was incredibly well written and touched on a COUPLE concerns i've had myself.
All i can say is, i feel you, i really do, and im not far behind myself

[Mongoose19]

I feel blizz made an absolutely fantastic raid in Ulduar. The concept, the varied bosses, the hard modes actually being hard and needing to be triggered, it was pretty much perfect.
I feel everything post Ulduar has been most underwhelming, including the hard mode ui switch thing, which just removed any imagination and immersion, making hardmodes essentially for the most part doing the exact same bosses, slightly harder in slightly better gear.

The weak excuse of appealing to more players and giving more choice for different players hardly disguised the fact that you are essentially getting less for your money and that theme of blizz rehashing content has basically grown and grown rapidly. Another thing I feel contributing to the slide in quality is the concept of all players being able to feel awesome and powerful has left some old school/hardcore players aggravated and some less serious players impatient and lazy.
Now putting time and effort into these activities reaps no prestige or sense of achievement. I mostly played to have fun with friends, so the gear thing never really bothered me, it is replaced so quickly, but the whole idea behind rpgs is progression and advancement. There was no longer a carrot on a string, just a big crate of sliced and washed carrots and a selection of dips.

LFD was the real nail in the coffin for me, It is convenient, but totally killed the need for a server outside orgrimmar. It brings out the worst behaviour in people, and another step away from immersion/teamwork/guilds/basically what an rpg is. The main use of LFD? instant rewards and gratification, which obviously suits a large part of the user base, but another large part is obviously voting with their feet.

All these things tie together to describe a user who wants an instant but ultimately short lived blast of fun and entertainment. Basically WoW is becoming the RPG equivalent of an iPhone game.

This has all been said 1000000 times before but these really are the reasons, that the game now sucks for me and probably alot of other people.

Listen to this guy, he speaks the truth, so hard for many to grasp.

[Straton]

Soooo many assholes and jaded people in this thread. And you're the same people saying the community is shit? Take a look in the mirror, you're the reason the community is shit.

[Lothaeryn]

Soooo many assholes and jaded people in this thread. And you're the same people saying the community is shit? Take a look in the mirror, you're the reason the community is shit.

So the game is shit because of Vanilla players who loved the beginning of this game and its playstyle and not the sociopathic, egotistical, elitist, and somewhat sadistic people who came afterward? Oh im sorry, i guess I should just kill myself then, because being a respectable human being doesnt seem to be "good" anymore for a COMMUNITY BASED game, in which its entire existence was about meeting other people in an online game environment, where you share the same goals and ideas.

WoW's community really is a farcry from what it was, alot of self-absorbed people came into the game over the years and its exasperated the problem of almost every aspect where this game has them. The fact that people complain all the time should be a clear indicator that something is wrong, whether that be the people who are too entitled to feel like they need to take responsibility for their actions, or rather, its people who loved this game who are now feeling that the game has changed so much that they cant even figure out what it is about this game that they even loved anymore.

Are you going to tell me you LIKE the people who say "STFU Noob, you suck, go kill yourself. I can do heroics because I am AWESOME! PvP iz skillz (even though he plays fotm) etc..." <--- are you REALLY telling me you LIKE these people?

The community is shit because all of the good players who actually have some common decency and respect for others have left in droves over the years, and leaves this game with the shithole of a community you apparently love so much.

Oh well, that's your choice. When you get shunned and feel inadequate don't come crying to me, because then the community is gonna call you a baby and a horrible person for crying.

[Pua]

Soooo many assholes and jaded people in this thread. And you're the same people saying the community is shit? Take a look in the mirror, you're the reason the community is shit.

You're automatically equating "assholes" and "jaded people". That's a bit unfortunate, I'd say.

[Deleted]

I’m talking about level-cap normal dungeons. Back during TBC or earlier, you could use level-cap dungeons to gear up for entry-level raids and you could spend a whole night doing them. In TBC particularly, the concept of “the heroic dungeon” was introduced as a way for those who didn’t have the time to commit to raiding guilds (as in, casuals) to find viable PvE endgame.

By removing them (three in Cataclysm, none coming in MoP), you’re actually removing endgame for casual players. Further, choosing to nerf heroics removes THAT avenue of progression for casual players who want to develop for a period where they might have time to devote to a raid guild.

The argument against heroics being heroic is one-dimensional; if I’m farming Valor points, I shouldn’t need to take 90 minutes to do so. Fine – put Valor farming on normal level cap dungeons, and put single epic drops at the end of heroic dungeons so that there’s still a reason to run them.

I accept I might be in the minority now, as far as the current playerbase is concerned, but I agree with the above 100%.

Personally I have gone through many phases of WoW, from being a casual (and bad!) player, to being a hardcore raider in TBC & WotLK, and back now to being a casual (but hopefully no-longer bad!!) player again today.

I agree totally with you in terms of how I used to view Heroic dungeons as being viable challenging endgame multiplayer content for people who couldn't commit to raiding, or perhaps didn't have the inclination to do so. Personally I used to really enjoy them back in TBC (before they were changed to be a means of farming BoJs).

Now that I'm back playing on a casual basis, I really can't bring myself to join in with the New Order that is gogogog VP farming. It's not fun - no-one wants to actually do the instances, they just want to get it over with as soon as possible to get their VP. I've never been a big PvP'er, and there's little point doing dailies, so I've been levelling another alt instead. It's also partly why my long-time raiding guild fell apart, outside of raids there's nothing worth doing except for levelling alts or gogogog VP farming, so people - good people - just stopped playing.

It's not down to me to try and convince people that things were better in "the good ol' days", there are plenty of people in this thread alone that have already stated they like how things are now much better, and that's up to them - different strokes for different folks, but I do feel that the game has changed - it's not just me that's changed - and that it's now appealing to a somewhat different audience than it did 5 years ago.

You’ve no reason to believe me, but I did. I put a lot of effort into doing my daily heroic in trade and encouraging others to do likewise, but it simply didn’t catch on – why? Because queuing up yourself nets you more rewards than queuing up with people from your own server.

Again, this is another point that I agree with you 100% on.

So often I see people saying "well if you don't like LFD don't use it, you can still form groups in /2 the old way"... Well, no, I'm afraid you can't. Sure you can try, but don't expect too much sucess! In fact, it's not just PuGs formed through trade chat etc., I think there's even a big decline in people from guilds running instances together. As you said, it's because there are too many incentives to anonymously queueing alone through LFD than to form groups manually.

There are the actual tangible gameplay incentives:
- Satchel of exotic thingummyjig
- Luck of the Draw buff

But more importantly, I think, there are the social incentives from queueing solo rather than with guildies or pugs from your realm:
- You can behave how you want in the group without any inhibitions or reprocussions. Ninja stuff, insult people, kick people, grief, and so on.
- You don't have to worry about anyone "befriending" you and pestering you to do runs in future.
- You have the total freedom to leave at any time, for any (or no) reason, without any explanation or reprocussions.

There are probably more benefits than I listed above, but even with just that - I totally expect 99% of all people to continue queueing alone than to respond to my plea of "LFM random ZA/ZG", even if I am a tank.

[Hiricine]

His best point--- they continually trivialize content for "Casuals" and then suddenly players are moving through content too quickly. The game keeps getting tuned for "new" players rather than "good" players. Find a hardcore gamer who doesn't play wow and he'll tell you how much of a joke it is to get to the level cap and get endgame gear.