SW:TOR and the way of DCUO.

[PACOX]

Free to play, as an option, is a death-knell for most games. DDO, LotRO, DCUO, EQ2.. all were going so shitty, that they were hemorrhaging money for the company. The FTP boost allow the game to stay alive, but most serious gamers view these titles as dead. Corrupted. Only "wallet warriors" are able to pull ahead. Can skill alone overcome $300-400 invested into a character? Maybe, but it still sucks.

Games do not go F2P because they are failing, they shut down or remain P2P ( such as Warhammer. the cost to maintain servers is much lower than many in this thread assume, P2P for even for low pop games is enough to keep the lights on). Games are going F2P because it has been proven to be a more profitable business model if game design allows it. Most MMORPGs, even WoW can afford to go F2P. How is it that WoW has done nothing but decline over the last year but see an increase in profit, micro-transactions. I always life when WoW players protest micros but their game has some subjectively crazier micros than hardcore F2P games, pretty much $25 to do anything which others (Rift) offer for free. How has LoTRO on become on of the most profitable game today, micro-transactions. LoL not a MMORPG but an MMO and purely F2P, probably in the top 5 profitable online games on the market today. Also when a game is "free" games feel like the developer is looking out for them.

With the exception of DCUO (which also had a bought of bad luck with the SOE/PSN downtime) not of the games mentioned were "failing". Their producers saw they could make more money going F2P/Freemium. One of the basic idea behind it, and most WoW players will agree they have done this, in between content patches players with established endgame character will unsubscribe to save money until whenever the patch is released. If another game pops up in between this downtime you risk losing subs altogether. F2P fixes this problem by allowing the player to hang around for the next patch with no obligations to pay for "casual play". In lieu of a sub fee, the player pays a one time fee or smaller than standard sub see to access new content (GW2 will more than likely be this way). As long as players hand around, there is the potential for them to poke around your micro-transaction shop and buy something. A lot of upcoming games are opting to start out as F2P/B2P/Freemium because its simply more profitable to do so but with the logic of this thread it means the game has somehow failed before it was even released.

I find it surprising that it isn't uncommon for people to compare SWTOR to DCUO which is the feeling I got. I don't do in the sense "SWTOR is a DCUO clone!" but their are a lot of similarities here and there.I feel like SWTOR will face the same problem DCUO had but it won't fall to it because its Bioware and Star Wars. The whole premise behind DCUO feels like it should be a F2P game. The game can easily be played solo, more so than any other MMORPG on the market. Playing solo just feels right, not many who have played SWTOR can dismiss the idea that it feels very much like a singleplayer game that is coop while leveling. Its like Bioware took Mass Effect and said "Lets make a KOTOR mod," and then said, "You know, I bet we can add mulitplayer to this as well". There isn't a lot of the "fluff" that other MMORPGs use as time sinks, professions are pretty much automated, gear doesn't need to be farmed, no reputation to grind, quest are given to you in a semi-liner compressed fashion. All of the mentioned items are designed to create a need for the keep playing a subscription to accomplish whatever goal they have set in the game. If it takes 2 weeks to level a profession, the player is probably going to stick around for 3 weeks to get back their time invested. That 5 weeks which is 2 sub payments. Without time sinks, goals are exhausted and players suspend their accounts until something else comes around.

Still pertaining to the SWTOR/DCUO connection is the fanfare that surrounds both games. Both games come from iconic backgrounds. That means not only do diehard fans want to experience the universe of the game but they also want to relive events they've read in comics or seen in movies. This is a great chance to release episodic content. The problem is do you go P2P or F2P? Go P2P and you have to release one every month (if you want to justify a sub), go F2P(or B2P) and you can spread out the releases a bit more in the favor of quality while fattening your wallet as well. Same idea with cosmetic designs. SOE realized this a bit too late but has made up for it. We've yet to see how Bioware will handle post launch endgame but I feel like they will be trading quality for quantity if they want to keep the sub money coming in. Going B2P and releasing endgame content in "episodes" would completely negate to problem of "releasing content too fast or too slow". There is no reason why SWTOR should "fail", however you define it, but if it does it will because of a shitty business model.

I have a question. How many AAA F2P games are actually "pay 2 win" and how does "pay 2 win" apply to PVE content? Aren't you already "paying 2 win" buy going out and buying the best rigs and finding the best ISP clearly creating an advantage over someone who cannot afford an PC with 8GB RAM, an i7 processor, a T1 line and the best keyboard and mouse money can buy.

Its almost as if gamers are someho ashamed to play a "free" game even if game design allows it. Gamers are conditioned to think "well they are making me pay for the game so it must be good" or that the company is doing you some sort of good by making you pay a sub fee. In reality there is not correlation at all.

TLDR: F2P ! = Bad, most upcoming games are actually adopting it. If by some chance SWTOR doesn't meet expectations its because they took a gamble on a business model that is swiftly becoming obsolete.

[Guillotine811]

ToR is gonna be huge, they're not gonna have to go F2P

[KvanCetre]

Anyone who played dcuo saw how under developed that game was. It made AoC look incredible.

[Puremallace]

This will never go free to play. Far too many loyal ToR fans will pay for it. Even if they drag out content patch people will pay for it. Just look at the number of people willing to make excuses for Blizzards constant failures. ToR is no different especially with Bioware fanatics.

It does not mean the game is bad, but not genre changing.

[Arteous]

Hi quick poll for you lads and lasses.

How long do you expect SW:TOR to last before it becomes Free To Play, much like DC Universe Online?

Personally, I hope never as Subscriptions = Money to pay for developers = better quality updates

biased poll is biased. should have an option for not going to go f2p.

[Smitzelplix]

biased poll is biased. should have an option for not going to go f2p.

It does. It has an option that says never.

[Roxinius]

biased poll is biased. should have an option for not going to go f2p.

that would be the never option

[Shardik]

unless I'm mistaken, star wars galaxies was always P2P, and it made enough to keep going for like 8 years and is only closing now due to sony's loss of star wars publishing rights (I think). galaxies was also very niche compared to swtor, though that could be a reason they kept subs as they were too unique to go elsewhere. Swtor's new content is also likely to be pretty expensive to develop if they continue to make VA'd quests for each class.

I doubt it will go f2p but we can never be certain till we see how it is doing a year from now.

[Puremallace]

biased poll is biased. should have an option for not going to go f2p.

Welcome to being a Rift fan for the last 7 months. Glad the sandbox trolls have moved onto ToR. You will have to deal with this particular brand of hurr derr. They believe that is a mmo is not pure sandbox or GW2 then it deserves to die.

[prankstar]

true, true. Also the fact it's a Star Wars franchise, it has many a fanbase at current too.

it also limits the fan base not everyone likes star wars and could be its undoing but only time will tell

[Alatian]

Games do not go F2P because they are failing, they shut down or remain P2P ( such as Warhammer. the cost to maintain servers is much lower than many in this thread assume, P2P for even for low pop games is enough to keep the lights on). Games are going F2P because it has been proven to be a more profitable business model if game design allows it. Most MMORPGs, even WoW can afford to go F2P. How is it that WoW has done nothing but decline over the last year but see an increase in profit, micro-transactions. I always life when WoW players protest micros but their game has some subjectively crazier micros than hardcore F2P games, pretty much $25 to do anything which others (Rift) offer for free. How has LoTRO on become on of the most profitable game today, micro-transactions. LoL not a MMORPG but an MMO and purely F2P, probably in the top 5 profitable online games on the market today. Also when a game is "free" games feel like the developer is looking out for them.

With the exception of DCUO (which also had a bought of bad luck with the SOE/PSN downtime) not of the games mentioned were "failing". Their producers saw they could make more money going F2P/Freemium. One of the basic idea behind it, and most WoW players will agree they have done this, in between content patches players with established endgame character will unsubscribe to save money until whenever the patch is released. If another game pops up in between this downtime you risk losing subs altogether. F2P fixes this problem by allowing the player to hang around for the next patch with no obligations to pay for "casual play". In lieu of a sub fee, the player pays a one time fee or smaller than standard sub see to access new content (GW2 will more than likely be this way). As long as players hand around, there is the potential for them to poke around your micro-transaction shop and buy something. A lot of upcoming games are opting to start out as F2P/B2P/Freemium because its simply more profitable to do so but with the logic of this thread it means the game has somehow failed before it was even released.

I find it surprising that it isn't uncommon for people to compare SWTOR to DCUO which is the feeling I got. I don't do in the sense "SWTOR is a DCUO clone!" but their are a lot of similarities here and there.I feel like SWTOR will face the same problem DCUO had but it won't fall to it because its Bioware and Star Wars. The whole premise behind DCUO feels like it should be a F2P game. The game can easily be played solo, more so than any other MMORPG on the market. Playing solo just feels right, not many who have played SWTOR can dismiss the idea that it feels very much like a singleplayer game that is coop while leveling. Its like Bioware took Mass Effect and said "Lets make a KOTOR mod," and then said, "You know, I bet we can add mulitplayer to this as well". There isn't a lot of the "fluff" that other MMORPGs use as time sinks, professions are pretty much automated, gear doesn't need to be farmed, no reputation to grind, quest are given to you in a semi-liner compressed fashion. All of the mentioned items are designed to create a need for the keep playing a subscription to accomplish whatever goal they have set in the game. If it takes 2 weeks to level a profession, the player is probably going to stick around for 3 weeks to get back their time invested. That 5 weeks which is 2 sub payments. Without time sinks, goals are exhausted and players suspend their accounts until something else comes around.

Still pertaining to the SWTOR/DCUO connection is the fanfare that surrounds both games. Both games come from iconic backgrounds. That means not only do diehard fans want to experience the universe of the game but they also want to relive events they've read in comics or seen in movies. This is a great chance to release episodic content. The problem is do you go P2P or F2P? Go P2P and you have to release one every month (if you want to justify a sub), go F2P(or B2P) and you can spread out the releases a bit more in the favor of quality while fattening your wallet as well. Same idea with cosmetic designs. SOE realized this a bit too late but has made up for it. We've yet to see how Bioware will handle post launch endgame but I feel like they will be trading quality for quantity if they want to keep the sub money coming in. Going B2P and releasing endgame content in "episodes" would completely negate to problem of "releasing content too fast or too slow". There is no reason why SWTOR should "fail", however you define it, but if it does it will because of a shitty business model.

I have a question. How many AAA F2P games are actually "pay 2 win" and how does "pay 2 win" apply to PVE content? Aren't you already "paying 2 win" buy going out and buying the best rigs and finding the best ISP clearly creating an advantage over someone who cannot afford an PC with 8GB RAM, an i7 processor, a T1 line and the best keyboard and mouse money can buy.

Its almost as if gamers are someho ashamed to play a "free" game even if game design allows it. Gamers are conditioned to think "well they are making me pay for the game so it must be good" or that the company is doing you some sort of good by making you pay a sub fee. In reality there is not correlation at all.

TLDR: F2P ! = Bad, most upcoming games are actually adopting it. If by some chance SWTOR doesn't meet expectations its because they took a gamble on a business model that is swiftly becoming obsolete.

This was actually very well written and articulate. Kudos!

[Herrenos]

It baffles me that f2p games are successful financially. Or rather, cash shop games like Allod's or RoM. I just feel ripped off when I've played them. The model of free to play with enhancements locked behind a sub wall makes sense to me though. I could see SWTOR going that way if it fails to grab people like EA is hoping.

[Encarn]

F2P can work so long as the culture of the game is brought up around it.

Moving from P2P to F2P is just too great of a culture shock for a community to survive. It just has a "dirty" feel to it.

There are several highly successful Asian market games built on F2P. Hell look at Zynga, lol. It can work, but only with certain demographics and gaming cultures. F2P for SWTOR would mean very very bad things indeed.

[Lord Kristivas]

3+ years is my guess. Like Mothhive said, there comes a time for this, and that doesn't have to mean it's failing.

I don't think it ever has to go FTP, until the game's nearing it's end (Fewer than a couple thousand subs? I dunno.) It will depend on how quickly they get new content out. Will it be frequent, like Rift? Or slow as balls, a-la EQ1? It's just going to depend on replayability, how awesome it is to stick around after you hit the cap and finish your quests. I see no reason SWTOR can't maintain the sub model over the long haul. Depends on the company, and quality of the game after the new wears off.

On top of that, can anyone really offer a good patch scenario that you can imagine being excited about? With WoW it was easy. Big dragon, king of the undead, giant elementals, etc. My ideas for Star Wars, though? A group of rancor could try destroying an entire civilization... ya know, while you're on another planet. Or an epic space battle... with autopilot that can't be turned off. Maybe another epic Sith/Jedi encounter? That'll be original.

Easily. Very easily, in fact. You don't just have one world of baddies. You have over 15! Some have savage, ancient monsters like Rancor and Krayt dragons. At the same time, you can face massive droids. Force-using maniacs. Heroes from the opposite faction. For every raid boss idea you can think of for a WoW-type setting, people can come up for 10 that would fit into a Star Wars game.

<snip huge post>

Everything you said seemed logical, rational, and well-thought out. I want to agree with you. At the same time.. despite the fact that I love with a capital L Dungeons and Dragons, and the Eberron setting, you'll not catch me playing DDO again.

F2P games aren't actually free. It's all just a huge scam to me. They're not free! To play to the fullest, you'd actually have to pay more than a sub. They nickle and dime the shit out of you for the most basic features.

"Sure, you can download the client and log in. Uh aww, only one character slot."
"Yeah, you can play through the content. Damn, too bad the good dungeons/content all come in costly packs."
"Mail? Auctions? Trading to another character? Nope, gotta buy that too."
"Want to make one of the good races? Sorry dude, you have to buy that extra."

I'd rather pay the same sub everyone else pays for all of the content in-game than have to deal with that. Many FTP games have a "gold membership" plan, which is basically $15 a month and you get access to most everything. It's the people that have the gold membership, plus sink tons of cash into the game for all the extra shit. It's not cosmetic items I have a problem with. Mounts, outfits, pets? Awesome. Game effecting stuff? Just seems yuck to me. I can't describe it any other way than.. yuck.

If/when SWTOR goes FTP, I can only hope I've already moved on from the game, or that the things you buy are cosmetic-only, along the lines of Invictus (pretty awesome F2P game, when I tried it).

**Edit** While I was posting..

Moving from P2P to F2P is just too great of a culture shock for a community to survive. It just has a "dirty" feel to it.

Exactly! Yes! The "yuck" thing I was saying above. So much this. ^

[Teriz]

There are numerous reasons why DCUO went F2P:

1.Super Hero MMOs almost always fail due to the fact that unlike Fantasy MMOs, your character always looks cheesy. People want to be Superman and Batman. Not man in blue tights with helmet on his head.

2.DCUO was buggy after release. People complained about lock-ups and crashes months after release.

3.Sony never could stop hackers and exploiters from wrecking the game.

4.The game was built mainly for the PS3, so gamers on the PC had to deal with awkward console controls.

5. The big Sony Online crash over the summer.

Its important to note that SWTOR has none of these issues.

[Tastyfish]

Most of these posts are so very elitist.
Does not matter.
What actually matters is the fact people think F2P = cancer.
Why the fuck would it matter if it goes F2P? What your going to stop playing it because you can't have a monthly sub for something you are supposed to be having fun with? Not only would that just be stupid for anyone to do or logic, but it shows that the monthly model has hooks in the players. Makes them feel special to pay.
It almost feels like an exaggerated rich vs poor issue.
Really it's all just so much bullshit. If a game goes F2P and you like it, oh well, now you don't have to budget money toward.
Go convince yourselves you can't play a f2p because it's free so you are being forced to deal with asshats, unlike paying, where there are only douches. lol

Edit: is it just a matter of snobbery, over your favorite game or just a matter of not being caught dead using a free game to have fun with?

[Lord Kristivas]

Most of these posts are so very elitist.
Does not matter.
What actually matters is the fact people think F2P = cancer.
Why the fuck would it matter if it goes F2P? What your going to stop playing it because you can't have a monthly sub for something you are supposed to be having fun with? Not only would that just be stupid for anyone to do or logic, but it shows that the monthly model has hooks in the players. Makes them feel special to pay.
It almost feels like an exaggerated rich vs poor issue.
Really it's all just so much bullshit. If a game goes F2P and you like it, oh well, now you don't have to budget money toward.
Go convince yourselves you can't play a f2p because it's free so you are being forced to deal with asshats, unlike paying, where there are only douches. lol

Edit: is it just a matter of snobbery, over your favorite game or just a matter of not being caught dead using a free game to have fun with?

I don't even. I'll try and address your points.

Elitist?! How so? I don't feel elite for paying $15 a month for a game. I feel like I'm getting a better quality game for my money. I feel like I'm not being nickled and dimed on every little shred of content/features.

It doesn't make me feel special to pay, unless you count the fact that I'd rather pay LESS at $15 a month flat out than $20-$50 in "little" charges that quickly add up without you even realizing it. In fact, having kids and being an adult, I don't have an endless stream of cash to pay for games every month. $15 is a small price for something I can play constantly. A dozen small charges is waaaaaaaay more expensive than a sub, and honestly.. does ANYONE that plays one of the F2P games actually play without picking up ANYTHING from the store? No, because the game's complete shit without those features.

I can ignore asshats who just hop around between F2P games. What I can't ignore is poor quality and a lack of features without having to pay out the rear for each one individually.

[redruMPanda]

Never. Bioware/EA is not the type of company who passes up on a cash horse when they see one.

[Keosen]

never. this isn't Sony. this actually has been in development a lot longer, has way more preorders and a lot more time and interest invested.

DCUO was never going to be big.

F2P doesn't need to be scheduled it can can occurs as a result of lack of incomes due to low subs or so.
There are at least 4 MMOs that went f2p while they were sub-based when they were released.
SWTOR doesn't seem to be one of them.

Free to play games is a totally different businees, i don't think than a f2p MMO can reach the quality of a good sub-based MMO although GW2 seems capable of falsify this.

[WaitingforSWTOR]

SWG is definitely not considered one of the better MMOs ever created...

Blasphemous people goes to hell, just sayin´