why Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[Defengar]

Japan was moving over 90 THOUSAND men to the beaches we were going to land on, with another 40-45 thousand coming up as reinforcements right about the time we were supposed to land.

The whole operation of the beach landing would have made Dday look like a god damn cake walk. It would have taken 200k marines to secure the beach AT LEAST. And thats the first few days and few hundred yards on what would have been one of the biggest ground conflict in history. total casualties would have made in by itself the third most deadly war in history.

several hundred thousand more soldiers were scattered around the nation, and the populace was being armed to the teeth with everything from hunting rifles to god damn bamboo spears. Not a nice freaking time.

[Cruor]

A lot of you really have no clue what you are talking about, you need to read more, and not just take your high school history class and what your liberal friends tell you as reality.

Lets go over a few points:

Was the bomb justified? YES. Look how many people died in urban battles. Look how many died in Stalingrad. 300,000 Russians died in taking berlin alone. One city. 300k... WAY more then both A-bombs killed. Ontop of that, as the Germans inavaded Russia and the Russians invaded Germany, there were massive rapings/murders crimes against civilians. If the USA had invaded Japan, we would have lost like 500k-1 million men, and they would have lost many times more. I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese. Things would be a lot worse for both counties, the A-Bombs savd a lot of people.

Both cities were supporting the war effort and were indeed military targets. Also, let me be person #137 to say if you mess with the bull you get the horns.. yeah we stopped trading with them, I'll echo all the liberals who say our response for Pearl Harbor was over kill by saying thier responce to us not trading with them was overkill.

Next point: You don't hear this because its not as widely known as the Nazis.. but the Japanese were WAY worse then the Germans, or anyone else in WW2. Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese. Look what they did to the chinese for years before WW2 started. All you hear is oh poor jews, look at what happened to them, what about all the Chinese the Japs killed. Look it up if your school didn't teach you.

In addition, the Japanese were much worse to their prisoners then the Nazis were. They beheaded and starved thousands of allied prisoners. The Nazis may have machine gunned a few allied prisoners but the Japanese tourtured thiers first... big difference. While the average Japanese citizen did may not have been like this, they did have the belief they were the best and most of them would have fought to the death if told to by thier leaders.

Conclusion is: A-Bombs were justifed, and they saved many, many lives, both Japanese and American. The Japanese were hands down the cruelest of the nations involved in WW2 and had it comming. Lastly, if the A-Bomb had not been used then, it would have been used in Korea or maybe the Cuban Missle Crisis or name any other cold war conflict.

Last thing I want to say, is I find it funny how many euros hate the USA yet play games made in the USA, watch our movies, and listen to our music. I think 75% of them have a MLP avatar which again... is a product of the USA. LOL at you.

[meathead]

Economic globalization has actually hurt most developed countries, like the U.S., and bolstered developing countries. Look at GDP growth in the world and you will see this. Goods and services are now more available to all, but countries are losing their exclusivity and superiority in the process.

Stating "see im stating facts not conspiracys" without any sources for anything you have said is arrogant and actually hurts your argument, which needs some severe help to begin with.

Also, any public middle school and beyond would teach that the colonization of America was a constant bloody war with the indigenous population. This isn't a secret our education system keeps from us, so don't act as if it is, for it makes you appear ignorant and not us.

wow you are suck a flip flopper.you tell me im wrong and im stating conspiracy's,and now you are agreeing with me.American corporations are expanding over seas,they are doing great.the only ones hurting from economic globalization are the American people whos jobs have been sent over seas so the corporations can save $ on labor and health care.

so you agree that economic globalization is happening,good thats the first step.the 2nd step is seeing that wars are fought over $ and the 2 are connected to one another.the 3rd step one has to know how to start a war,answer= piss off the america people so they back the war.demonize a country/group/person and go after them because they could hurt America.once we take them out we never leave and we run there country how we see fit.we exploit there people for cheap labor and resources.

o and dont forget corporations get rich just from the war itself.for example who do you think supplies the troops with food and bottled water?ammo and clothing,they are all made by the millions for the troops by corporations ordered by the American government= $$$$$.

im American and they do not teach the real meaning of anyhting in ours schools.they teach that the meaning of thanksgiving is because the pilgrims made it threw a hard winter.while thats in part true,they leave out the killing,slaughtering of a tribe of Indians.read between the lines and remember history is written by the victors.

[Deleted]

There's no point in discussing this really. You'll just go round and round in circles. If you seek moral answers for something like this, you'd have to consult God. The sad thing is, after the Iraq War some American's are beginning to take the view again of their divinely ordained destiny. Which played out pretty terribly with the Philippines War for starters. The main question people should always ask is what is excess? It seems people continually blind themselves to this by trying to portray everything as a means to an end while excusing all the tragic excesses.

[Wulfstan]

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Also Japan should have surrendered after the first atomic bomb was dropped.

[meathead]

May 8 is considered to be the end of the war in Europe yes. Japan tried to surrender trough it's war council as early as mid July, to the Soviet Union and try and contactthe Allied forces trough them, however the Emperor decided Japan would fight till the end, the atomic bombs were such a shock Japan was forced to surrender.

Some Japanese forces on the pacific islands didn't even surrender till the early 70s, the isolated ones that is.

@ Meathead it is recent information that the USA had fired on a Japanese vessel on "accident", which eventually led to the events including but not limited to Pearl Harbour. Japan did declare war, while many believe they didn't. (Aka making Pearl Harbour a war crime.) Only the declaration of war arrived later than the attack of Pearl Harbour, got to love technology back then.

It is also known that both the Soviet Union and the USA send troops and equipment to China as early as 1937, during the Second.. or was it third? Sino-Japan
War.

yes you are in part correct.but remember no one act starts a war.firing on a jap ship was just one thing the USA did to provoke a war with japan.but when it comes down to the brass balls of it all,the war with japn was over $ and who would rule and exploit the land and resources of the east/pacific.

[Therdin]

wow you are suck a flip flopper.you tell me im wrong and im stating conspiracy's,and now you are agreeing with me.American corporations are expanding over seas,they are doing great.the only ones hurting from economic globalization are the American people whos jobs have been sent over seas so the corporations can save $ on labor and health care.

so you agree that economic globalization is happening,good thats the first step.the 2nd step is seeing that wars are fought over $ and the 2 are connected to one another.the 3rd step one has to know how to start a war,answer= piss off the america people so they back the war.demonize a country/group/person and go after them because they could hurt America.once we take them out we never leave and we run there country how we see fit.we exploit there people for cheap labor and resources.

o and dont forget corporations get rich just from the war itself.for example who do you think supplies the troops with food and bottled water?ammo and clothing,they are all made by the millions for the troops by corporations ordered by the American government= $$$$$.

im American and they do not teach the real meaning of anyhting in ours schools.they teach that the meaning of thanksgiving is because the pilgrims made it threw a hard winter.while thats in part true,they leave out the killing,slaughtering of a tribe of Indians.read between the lines and remember history is written by the victors.

And Black helicopters, and 9/11 was a cover-up, and spy satellites, and and and big brother man (*takes huge hit off the bong*) they are like all in it to oppress the people man. America is all about the dollars, they dont care about me man. they are like totally brainwashing you to buy ipods and be like a robot man!

I'm like so much smarter then everyone else, I see through the shroud of corporate hypnosis.
/end sarcasm
Meathead is a fitting name for you

[The King in Yellow]

A lot of you really have no clue what you are talking about, you need to read more, and not just take your high school history class and what your liberal friends tell you as reality.

Lets go over a few points:

Was the bomb justified? YES. Look how many people died in urban battles. Look how many died in Stalingrad. 300,000 Russians died in taking berlin alone. One city. 300k... WAY more then both A-bombs killed. Ontop of that, as the Germans inavaded Russia and the Russians invaded Germany, there were massive rapings/murders crimes against civilians. If the USA had invaded Japan, we would have lost like 500k-1 million men, and they would have lost many times more. I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese. Things would be a lot worse for both counties, the A-Bombs savd a lot of people.

Both cities were supporting the war effort and were indeed military targets. Also, let me be person #137 to say if you mess with the bull you get the horns.. yeah we stopped trading with them, I'll echo all the liberals who say our response for Pearl Harbor was over kill by saying thier responce to us not trading with them was overkill.

Next point: You don't hear this because its not as widely known as the Nazis.. but the Japanese were WAY worse then the Germans, or anyone else in WW2. Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese. Look what they did to the chinese for years before WW2 started. All you hear is oh poor jews, look at what happened to them, what about all the Chinese the Japs killed. Look it up if your school didn't teach you.

In addition, the Japanese were much worse to their prisoners then the Nazis were. They beheaded and starved thousands of allied prisoners. The Nazis may have machine gunned a few allied prisoners but the Japanese tourtured thiers first... big difference. While the average Japanese citizen did may not have been like this, they did have the belief they were the best and most of them would have fought to the death if told to by thier leaders.

Conclusion is: A-Bombs were justifed, and they saved many, many lives, both Japanese and American. The Japanese were hands down the cruelest of the nations involved in WW2 and had it comming. Lastly, if the A-Bomb had not been used then, it would have been used in Korea or maybe the Cuban Missle Crisis or name any other cold war conflict.

Last thing I want to say, is I find it funny how many euros hate the USA yet play games made in the USA, watch our movies, and listen to our music. I think 75% of them have a MLP avatar which again... is a product of the USA. LOL at you.

*cough* American and British concentration camps *cough* Yes they did exist *cough*

Still... IN MY OPINION the bombs were not justified, but necessary, let me also tell you, Nagasaki was not much of a military target, Hiroshima was.

I can also tell you there would be a whole lot of Japanese with a lot of white features in the years to come, if you get my drift. I garentee they would be discriminated against by the other Japanese.

Okinawa says hello, it still happened.

The Germans also tortured their prisoners to an extend, murdered them, let their children dig their parent's graves, etc. both countries did the most inhumane things.

Any non Jew would beg to be under nazi control rather then Japanese. Japanese saw ALL non Japanese as below them, and took great pleasure in torturing and killing non Japanese.

Now that's just racist... then again, quite a large portion of your post is.

---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 11:24 PM ----------

yes you are in part correct.but remember no one act starts a war.firing on a jap ship was just one thing the USA did to provoke a war with japan.but when it comes down to the brass balls of it all,the war with japn was over $ and who would rule and exploit the land and resources of the east/pacific.

No it wasn't, Japan wanted to "free" the colonies of Asian cultures from the "Western Oppressors" aka: Imperialism.

The war in the pacific however started with the Sino-Japan war.... something which both nations have been fighting for thousands of years.... you might really want to open a history book sometimes...

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Also Japan should have surrendered after the first atomic bomb was dropped.

Even if they did, the message would have been too late and the second bomb would have still been dropped. Japan should have forced Emperor Hirohito to surrender before the bombs were even considered.

[Defengar]

Actually now I am curious as to what they write in Japan's history books >.<

Hehe...

From what I understand, German schools basically cover 1933-1945 in the amount of time it takes to unwrap a candy bar lol.

[Sunseeker]

*cough* American and British concentration camps *cough* Yes they did exist *cough*

We're aware, but we're still talking grapes and grapefruit. German concentration camps were hard labor, torture, sick experiment and death camps. American camps, which were mainly in California and Hawaii, were interment camps. There's an important difference. While we may have destroyed lives in uprooting people and shoving them in a cage, we weren't gassing them or pulling out their intestines while they were alive and unmedicated.

[Defengar]

No, the bombs weren't justified. They were the result of the USA being really pissed for having their ships bombed in a safe zone and their forces taken by surprise and destroyed in an area that wasn't a battlefield. They wanted to punch Japan fast and hard.

The USA could have made a demonstration of the nuclear bomb by blowing up an uninhabited island and making sure the japs know about it, but they were raging at that moment and wanted to see Japan bleed.

Dude, the pearl harbor rage had kind of been replaced by "fucking Japanese all over these fucking islands makin this war move slow as fuck" rage.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

Most countries have a dirt / blood on their hands, just look at what happened to the Native Americans. It really is silly to go back and forth pointing out all the crimes each contry has commited.

What I don't like is when people try to justify those atrocities.

The mass murder of civilians can never be justified in my eyes, no matter which country is responsible or the method used.

Totally understandable, and I agree! But I will definitely point out to someone their faults when they blindly follow something without question.

[The King in Yellow]

Dude, the pearl harbor rage had kind of been replaced by "fucking Japanese all over these fucking islands makin this war move slow as fuck" rage.

Sounds like the best rage.... ever...

@Defengar and Purlina

depending on the school, the Japanese history books actually tell the second world war in a rather large detail, mostly like most of the western European countries. They rather see it as; a time not to be forgotten so the same mistake can't happen again. And I doubt Germany goes over their history that quickly, because most Germans I know, know a lot and I mean REALLY a lot about their country's history, especially in 1900 - 1945 and onwards.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

*cough* American and British concentration camps *cough* Yes they did exist *cough*

Still... IN MY OPINION the bombs were not justified, but necessary, let me also tell you, Nagasaki was not much of a military target, Hiroshima was.

Okinawa says hello, it still happened.

The Germans also tortured their prisoners to an extend, murdered them, let their children dig their parent's graves, etc. both countries did the most inhumane things.



Now that's just racist... then again, quite a large portion of your post is.

---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 11:24 PM ----------



No it wasn't, Japan wanted to "free" the colonies of Asian cultures from the "Western Oppressors" aka: Imperialism.

The war in the pacific however started with the Sino-Japan war.... something which both nations have been fighting for thousands of years.... you might really want to open a history book sometimes...



Even if they did, the message would have been too late and the second bomb would have still been dropped. Japan should have forced Emperor Hirohito to surrender before the bombs were even considered.

While you both conflict eachother a tad bit...you both had the two most sensible posts in this entire thread props!

[kaji]

how can people sit here and get mad at USA for that

JAPAN ATTACKED THE US FIRST
You dont want to get bombed then dont start shit? Crazy concept I know

Excuse me ?
Time to eat an Iraqui nuke then ?
Yes we know they have tons of weapons of mass destruction and had to be destroyed. no ?

Both were military targets.

Yes just as much as Disney Land would be.

I like all these high-handed patriotic comments, trying to explain genocide.
So genocide is right if it contributes to a certain goal ?
Looking at Americas history its paved with blood and genocide has always been a great tool of Purification, starting with the American Natives.
Also i believe America had a great tradition of slavery followed by apartheid till late 20th century.

Of course the winner takes it all and writes the history-books.
Of course all of it was done in the name of righteousness.
And of course America is great.

Truman was a massmurderer and as such he should be remembered just like Hitler and Stalin.

You should start opening your eyes.

[Sunseeker]

Excuse me ?
Time to eat an Iraqui nuke then ?
Yes we know they have tons of weapons of mass destruction and had to be destroyed. no ?



Yes just as much as Disney Land would be.

I like all these high-handed patriotic comments, trying to explain genocide.
So genocide is right if it contributes to a certain goal ?
Looking at Americas history its paved with blood and genocide has always been a great tool of Purification, starting with the American Natives.
Also i believe America had a great tradition of slavery followed by apartheid till late 20th century.

Of course the winner takes it all and writes the history-books.
Of course all of it was done in the name of righteousness.
And of course America is great.

Truman was a massmurderer and as such he should be remembered just like Hitler and Stalin.

You should start opening your eyes.

You should too, radical rewriting of history in ANY direction is going to get you blindsided by reality in a heartbeat.

[Defengar]

The "personality of Japan" thing is a racist meme from WWII propaganda that somehow stuck. It is not and was never true. The idea that the Japanese people were some unique brand of bloodthirsty, ultra-nationalistic savages is bogus. Their soldiers surrendered in the same fashion European soldiers did when beaten. The difference was minor at best. The cases of soldiers or civilians fighting to the death and refusing to ever surrender were overblown and the same thing happened sometimes in Europe.

Russia had agreed not to attack Japan. We knew that they were going to break this pact and invade Manchuria (a Japanese territory) but chose to drop the first bomb THREE DAYS before Russia invaded, and the second the same day, instead of simply waiting three days for the invasion to happen (which it was going to either way) to see how Japan would react. Even if the chances were only 10% that this would cause Japan to surrender, it is fundamentally *evil* (not just wrong, or immoral, but EVIL) to rush the dropping of the bomb at that point.

Even if it was GRANTED that Russia would somehow occupy the entire nation of Japan mere moments after taking Manchuria (which is ludicrous) it is STILL fundamentally evil to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people simply to prevent another nation from taking Japan, no matter what that nation is.

30k Japanese on Iwo jima. 219 surrender... rest either die fighting or commit suicide (including the commanders)... Yeah... not overblown or anything...

They did have a self superior imperialistic mind set. They invaded other nations (which is why we made he trade blockade, which goth them pissed at us) to plunder all their shit and they killed hundreds of thousands in medical experiments because they considered Chinese test subjects sub human. They referred to them as monkeys, even on official forms.

The fear wasn`t Russia occupying ALL of Japan, it was them occupying part of it, which would have made the cold war a whole lot more complicated (Germany all over again) and Russia would have been a lot more ruthless than us. When we invaded we would have dealt with any citizen that attacked us and tried to preserve the nations infrastructure as much as possible. The Russians on the other hand would have done exactly what they did in Germany, meaning, as soon as civilians started shooting at them they would have started slaughtering whole cities just so they would nt have to deal with insurgents. North Japan would have been a desolate wasteland. And, while South Japan (occupied by USA) would have slowly recovered, north Japan (occupied by USSR) would have suffered the same shitty fate as eastern Europe...

[Therdin]

Excuse me ?
Time to eat an Iraqui nuke then ?
Yes we know they have tons of weapons of mass destruction and had to be destroyed. no ?





Yes just as much as Disney Land would be.

I like all these high-handed patriotic comments, trying to explain genocide.
So genocide is right if it contributes to a certain goal ?
Looking at Americas history its paved with blood and genocide has always been a great tool of Purification, starting with the American Natives.
Also i believe America had a great tradition of slavery followed by apartheid till late 20th century.

Of course the winner takes it all and writes the history-books.
Of course all of it was done in the name of righteousness.
And of course America is great.

Truman was a massmurderer and as such he should be remembered just like Hitler and Stalin.

You should start opening your eyes.

Name 1 country who's history isn't soaked in blood and genocide

[The King in Yellow]

Dear Jibjabb...

I wish people stopped thinking Japan attacked first, Japan responded on a series of provocations, cultural insults (on a diplomatic level, even directed to the Emperor himself) and an attack which the USA said was "an accident" even recent new studies have concluded this.

Even a documentary which ended with the words from a Japanese fighter pilot: "We never fought to win, we fought to defend ourselves"

Pearl Harbour, although a stupid decision.... was Japan's answer on these events.

It is like Kaji already said, history has been written by the victors, this tradition goes as far back as Rome and Egypt.

The USA has always been "The knight in the shiny white armour"

@ Therdin

Antartica, Switzerland (Atleast I think) Liechtenstein... Luxembourg erm... Monaco?

[kaji]

You should too, radical rewriting of history in ANY direction is going to get you blindsided by reality in a heartbeat.

I see, now i cant exactly point my finger at the part where i have rewritten history. U might help me out here.