Meathead put on your tinfoil hat.
As for NineSpine, I respect your knowledge. I would like to hear you input on the issue of waiting for the Russian invasion effect. I can't recall much about it in my reading, so I welcome to be educated.
Meathead put on your tinfoil hat.
As for NineSpine, I respect your knowledge. I would like to hear you input on the issue of waiting for the Russian invasion effect. I can't recall much about it in my reading, so I welcome to be educated.
"But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."
- Japanese emperor Hirohito
Gyokuon-hōsō to his nation after accepting defeat.
Obviously the bombs did nothing to sway them. I mean the Emperor of the country only said it did but w/e what does he know
Again, I think it was a reaction to a new, frightening mentality to the US military. In one culture, suicide is hugely negative and considered cowardly. Doing so at the expense of other's lives is considered even more cowardly and despicable. In the other, it was the highest possible honor to throw yourself at the enemy, killing multiple while taking your own life - and not even necessarily in defense.
So to the US, killing many in defense and coming out alive is valued as efficient and victorious. Intentionally dying is never a positive outcome. To Japan at the time, the opposite was the case.
How can that mentality ever be defeated?
You'd have to attack the very spirit and heart of that culture.
This is not an endorsement for using bombs on densely populated civilian targets, even if they have military importance to Japan, but it makes it more understandable. When an enemy can never be convinced it has lost, or would still be willing to fight at its own expense despite a loss, all you can attack is morale. Killing more Japanese on foot only encouraged more militancy.
Far be it from you to open a history book I'm sure, but you should read about what the fighting was like on Okinawa, and then consider what a land invasion of Japan would have consisted of, and then look at the conservative historical estimates for death tolls from an allied invasion in Japan. It took not 1 but 2 nuclear detonations to finally give the Emperor enough pause to pull in the reins on the Japanese military that had already shown at Okinawa that they had no intention of surrender. Even in the opinion of modern Japanese historians, the 2 nuclear bombs saved more Japanese lives than they cost.
No one can say that the atomic bomb drops weren't horrible things, but World War 2 was the most horrible war in history and the Japanese military was one of the most strident and determined forces in the world at that time or any time relatively, even amidst falter. You're really selling the Pacific theater, Japan, the United States and World War 2 short when you try to attribute modern sentiment to a period in time that you can't even begin to relate to. You also really put your lack of education out there for everyone to see. It's embarrassing.
Compared to the collateral damage that the "Plan B" at the time would have caused (a full scale land invasion of Japan), it was considered to be the lesser of two evils - they estimated that millions could have died in such an invasion. I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision.
lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.
It's funny that you mention China. The United States had pilots fighting in China almost a decade before the onset of the pacific theater trying to aid the Chinese who had been suffering a genocidal occupation by the Japanese. The war with Japan had literally nothing to do with money and I'm convinced that you've never even read a general history of World War 2, let alone anything even remotely focused in nature. Reading 911 style conspiracy theories about a war that is 70 years in the past and has been subject to more scrutiny and academic examination than any war in history is almost pathetic.
Didn't the Japanese kind of realise that they woke a sleeping giant with their attack on Pearl Harbor? Personally, I think dropping the bomb was unnecessary. I can understand the reasoning behind it - what little there was, the whole "shocking them into submission", but I think the US went way out of line on that particular course of action.
"Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."
Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.
However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.
It was a choice between bombing two cities with an untested weapon or invading Japan. When the invasion plans were drawn up by people who were unaware of the atomic bomb project, the casualty projections were as follows: Allied casualties - 1.7-4 Million, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities. Japanese casualties- 5-10 Million fatalities with no estimates on the number of wounded. It also would most likely have continued the war for at least another 3 years. Helluva moral decision huh?
Source: Google search "Operation Downfall", "Operation Olympic" and "Operation Coronet"
Btw, that was a best case scenario. And since the Japanese had figured out where the landings were going to take place, the actual casualty figures would probably have been much, much worse.
Last edited by Catrilia; 2011-11-28 at 09:08 PM.
For all the garbage posting in this thread, there have been some spectacular and well-educated posts. Therdin and Catrilia you guys are alright in my book.
All I could think of when reading this was this
http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...th-poland.html
---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 09:10 PM ----------
Thank you sir, Its nice to hear after being called "a fundamentally inhuman piece of garbage" by someone decrying a nation for their lack morality.
Last edited by Therdin; 2011-11-28 at 09:11 PM.