why Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[punkbusster]

Meathead put on your tinfoil hat.

As for NineSpine, I respect your knowledge. I would like to hear you input on the issue of waiting for the Russian invasion effect. I can't recall much about it in my reading, so I welcome to be educated.

[Therdin]

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."
-Dwight D. Eisenhower

But hey, wtf would be know about it, right?

The entire point is that it was done to show off the power of the atomic weapon, NOT to cause the surrender of Japan. But perhaps that point didn't get through to you.

"But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."

- Japanese emperor Hirohito
Gyokuon-hōsō to his nation after accepting defeat.

Obviously the bombs did nothing to sway them. I mean the Emperor of the country only said it did but w/e what does he know

[IIBlackmagikII]

Again, I think it was a reaction to a new, frightening mentality to the US military. In one culture, suicide is hugely negative and considered cowardly. Doing so at the expense of other's lives is considered even more cowardly and despicable. In the other, it was the highest possible honor to throw yourself at the enemy, killing multiple while taking your own life - and not even necessarily in defense.

So to the US, killing many in defense and coming out alive is valued as efficient and victorious. Intentionally dying is never a positive outcome. To Japan at the time, the opposite was the case.

How can that mentality ever be defeated?

You'd have to attack the very spirit and heart of that culture.

This is not an endorsement for using bombs on densely populated civilian targets, even if they have military importance to Japan, but it makes it more understandable. When an enemy can never be convinced it has lost, or would still be willing to fight at its own expense despite a loss, all you can attack is morale. Killing more Japanese on foot only encouraged more militancy.

[GG you got me]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki make us the only nation who's ever used nuclear weapons against another country. And yet we're supposedly at the forefront of making sure that "evil" countries like Iran don't get 'em, and the other "evil" countries - which will again include Russia, given the whole brouhaha about the missile "shield" in Europe - don't use 'em. Why? Because we're the USA. Only we get to nuke people.

Our government's hypocrisy sickens me.

Far be it from you to open a history book I'm sure, but you should read about what the fighting was like on Okinawa, and then consider what a land invasion of Japan would have consisted of, and then look at the conservative historical estimates for death tolls from an allied invasion in Japan. It took not 1 but 2 nuclear detonations to finally give the Emperor enough pause to pull in the reins on the Japanese military that had already shown at Okinawa that they had no intention of surrender. Even in the opinion of modern Japanese historians, the 2 nuclear bombs saved more Japanese lives than they cost.

No one can say that the atomic bomb drops weren't horrible things, but World War 2 was the most horrible war in history and the Japanese military was one of the most strident and determined forces in the world at that time or any time relatively, even amidst falter. You're really selling the Pacific theater, Japan, the United States and World War 2 short when you try to attribute modern sentiment to a period in time that you can't even begin to relate to. You also really put your lack of education out there for everyone to see. It's embarrassing.

[chipwood]

Meaningless considering how much collateral damage was done.

Compared to the collateral damage that the "Plan B" at the time would have caused (a full scale land invasion of Japan), it was considered to be the lesser of two evils - they estimated that millions could have died in such an invasion. I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision.

[meathead]

Meathead put on your tinfoil hat.

As for NineSpine, I respect your knowledge. I would like to hear you input on the issue of waiting for the Russian invasion effect. I can't recall much about it in my reading, so I welcome to be educated.

lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.

[GG you got me]

the reason the USA fought with japan was over interests "money" in places like china and the pacific.do you really believe that the usa did not know the bombing of pearl harbor was going to happen?we intercepted phone calls,had radar,scout plans,fishing boats etc all over the islands.the USA even made the air craft carriers go out to see and left the outdated boats "battleships" in the harbor.why did the usa not send the aircraft carriers back to attack the jap's ships once the battle started?
once the American people were pissed off our government was free to to what it liked.the USA became the worlds #1 economic power after ww2,know why?because all the other economies were destroyed by the war except for ours.see how the USA made $ from it?

It's funny that you mention China. The United States had pilots fighting in China almost a decade before the onset of the pacific theater trying to aid the Chinese who had been suffering a genocidal occupation by the Japanese. The war with Japan had literally nothing to do with money and I'm convinced that you've never even read a general history of World War 2, let alone anything even remotely focused in nature. Reading 911 style conspiracy theories about a war that is 70 years in the past and has been subject to more scrutiny and academic examination than any war in history is almost pathetic.

[Falkus]

Didn't the Japanese kind of realise that they woke a sleeping giant with their attack on Pearl Harbor? Personally, I think dropping the bomb was unnecessary. I can understand the reasoning behind it - what little there was, the whole "shocking them into submission", but I think the US went way out of line on that particular course of action.

[knumskul]

Both were military targets.

So was the emperor's palace. OP asked why specifically those 2 cities.

[punkbusster]

lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.

I am not going to waste my time, on a conspiracy theroist. Your ideas are fragments of your paranoia, and your writing makes no sense. Its all one thought screams.

[Faunwea]

Slightly off-topic but it annoys me to no fucking end when someone complains about the decision to nuke by the US. If you think that was a messed up decision, you really ought to read some history of Japan's actions in China before and during WWII, you'll likely lose your sympathy.

The Rape of Nanking comes to mind...

[Purlina]

The Rape of Nanking comes to mind...

No one is saying that Japan was innocent, but on the other hand 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It just adds more fuel to the fire so to speak.

[Deleted]

Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.

[punkbusster]

No one is saying that Japan was innocent, but on the other hand 2 wrongs don't make a right.

AHHHHHHHHHH, why do you post such idealogical non-sense about WWII. My God children, educate yourselves, read, read, read, then comment.

[GG you got me]

"But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."

- Japanese emperor Hirohito
Gyokuon-hōsō to his nation after accepting defeat.

Obviously the bombs did nothing to sway them. I mean the Emperor of the country only said it did but w/e what does he know

Let me just tell you, I like your style.

[IIBlackmagikII]

Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.

Exactly, by destroying the spirit to fight of a country that would rather see every one of its inhabitants die before surrendering to a land invasion.

[Catrilia]

Mmhm...I suppose we have to look at it in light of the time the decision was made in, but even so, I am also morally disturbed by the decision. Let us hope that no such decision will be made again.

It was a choice between bombing two cities with an untested weapon or invading Japan. When the invasion plans were drawn up by people who were unaware of the atomic bomb project, the casualty projections were as follows: Allied casualties - 1.7-4 Million, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities. Japanese casualties- 5-10 Million fatalities with no estimates on the number of wounded. It also would most likely have continued the war for at least another 3 years. Helluva moral decision huh?

Source: Google search "Operation Downfall", "Operation Olympic" and "Operation Coronet"

Btw, that was a best case scenario. And since the Japanese had figured out where the landings were going to take place, the actual casualty figures would probably have been much, much worse.

[punkbusster]

Don't know if it's been said already, but they wanted to bomb Germany, more precisely Dresden, but they couldn't, cause hitting the target with the nuke required them to fly very low over it and Germany was covered in mist by that time. If it had been otherwise, most likely I wouldn't exist.

However, dropping the nuke wasn't meant to win the war by destroying an army, but should demonstrate the power of the U.S. by hitting the enemy at his heart, their cultural treasures.

This one is rich... ahh der, Germany had already surrendered on May 7, 1945, the first bomb "Trinity" was tested on July 16, 1945......

[GG you got me]

For all the garbage posting in this thread, there have been some spectacular and well-educated posts. Therdin and Catrilia you guys are alright in my book.

[Therdin]

lol come on now,if you think im wrong prove me wrong.quote me and show me where im wrong.heres a another piece of info.do you know the USA never declared war on Germany.the germans declared war on the USA after the USA declared war on japan.if German was so evil why did we not go after them first?because its all lies.

All I could think of when reading this was this

http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...th-poland.html

---------- Post added 2011-11-28 at 09:10 PM ----------

For all the garbage posting in this thread, there have been some spectacular and well-educated posts. Therdin and Catrilia you guys are alright in my book.

Thank you sir, Its nice to hear after being called "a fundamentally inhuman piece of garbage" by someone decrying a nation for their lack morality.