Mage Talents in MoP - A breakdown for the PVE Mage

[Crableg]

I just thought i would run through the mage talents for MoP, from a pure PVE perspective, to see if there would really be a "cookie cutter" mage spec.

So,here goes, constructive criticism is welcome if i got something wrong.

Level 15 - Ring of Frost / Ice Ward / Frostjaw

Non of these relate to a DPS increase, all for utility and all situational, up to the player, or encounter.

Level 30 - Mana Shield / Blazing Speed / Ice Barrier

No major DPS increase, Blazing speed is now an on use spell which could be good for those sticky situations, however, Ice barrier now stops push back effects while casting, therefore also usefull for moments in a fight when you know some AoE is coming your way. Basically, up to the player.

Level 45 - Presence of Mind / Scorch / Arcane Flows

Here we get some choice, scorch would be taken by fire mages (Presumably), then the choice comes between PoM and AF (bring back the days of PoM Pyro maybe !), i predict most arcane mages taking AF to help with the lack of movement allowance in the rotation, however, no direct DPS boost here either.

Level 60 - Greater Invisibility / Cauterize / Cold Snap

From a pure PvE perspective, Cold snap would probably not even be taken by PVE Frost mages due to it not resetting icy veins or deep freeze (even though it seems they have taken away the damaging effect on non stunnable targets), so between Cauterize and Invisibility, they are both for the "Oh shit" moments, Invisibility is now instant without further talents, so a good instant threat dump and dot removal if needed, however cauterize is also extremely useful and your healers will probably thank you for it, so, either one is up to the player.

Level 75 - Blast Wave / Dragons Breath / Slow

Here we have 2 spells that actually do damage, Blast wave and Dragons Breath, on a 15 and 20 second CD, respectively. So they cant fit a common use in your AoE rotation, however to start it off it could be useful. Dragons breath can also be used for a quick CC if your in a hurry, however, non of them would increase your DPS on your standard boss.

Now slow is nice for your single target kiting, but not much use otherwise, in a raid setting. Also on a side note, no more Torment of the Weak (This feels like a stab to the kidney)

Level 90 - Sickly polymorph / Heavy Polymorph / Double Polymorph

Blizz managed to give us mages some new spells we already have ! I do actually like these new versions though, so no hating.

Basically, i personally dont think your PVE mage will be taking Sickly polymorph, as the CC's are usually done before any damage is going out, so no need for that. It comes down to Heavy, or double, these are pretty much down to the player again, Double polymorph will only be needed in a group that is lacking the needed CC, and will mostly not be needed in a raid environment, useful in dungeons though. Heavy poly morph will probably be the choice for the PvE mage, im sure you are all aware of the annoying melee that aoe our precious livestock (and the occasional caster), so a stun after it breaks would be welcome.


So, overall for the Mage, there isnt really any "talents" that must be taken, and none that would relate to a direct DPS increase. So, i feel like this new system is working for the Mage, and eliminating the "cookie cutter" spec for us.

[TyrianFC]

So, overall for the Mage, there isnt really any "talents" that must be taken, and none that would relate to a direct DPS increase. So, i feel like this new system is working for the Mage, and eliminating the "cookie cutter" spec for us.

How many of these talents and decisions look and sound fun to you, especially compared to other classes? Just because you feel that there are no mandatory talents, doesn't mean the design is acceptable, as it requirse you to make 'choices' between a whole bunch of uninspired, boring talents. Are you excited at the possibility of choosing between spells you've.... been using for years already, in nearly every tier?

The current proposed mage talents are terrible compared to DK / Warlock / Druid. I hope they're the least finished of the classes and that we can hope for more polish soon. Just because you feel there is no 'cookie cutter' spec - doesnt mean that what's left over, and the choices you have to make with it, are fun either.

So I have a question for you:

Among all 10 classes, Mages have been one of the least happiest collectively with the proposed Pandaria talents. Why do you feel this is, especially when you yourself just said you feel like the proposed system 'is working'? There has to be a reason why so many people, including myself, are very dissatisfied/unhappy with the proposed system - yet you feel its working fine?

[Torian kel]

Blizzard stated that the calculator is in it's pre-alpha stage, so stop getting on your high horses, and stop making "cookie cutter" specs or speculations because it is, for sure, going to heavely change in the future.

[Imnick]

I don't think Scorch is quite as brainless for a fire mage as you imply, Blizzard said Fire will no longer have bonuses to fire damage because it'll be the only spec with access to non-scorch fire spells anyway so scorch will do equal damage for every spec

[Crableg]

So I have a question for you:

Among all 10 classes, Mages have been one of the least happiest collectively with the proposed Pandaria talents. Why do you feel this is, especially when you yourself just said you feel like the proposed system 'is working'? There has to be a reason why so many people, including myself, are very dissatisfied/unhappy with the proposed system - yet you feel its working fine?

I know where you are coming from, obviously with a complete talent overhaul there will be some abilities or choices that most people wont like, What i meant by "is working" is, that it seems so far that there arent talents that you have to take because they relate to a direct DPS increase, so the system can work, they just need to play it out well.

I do agree though, that we require more polishing and tweaking, maybe making some more "fun" talents, however, as Torian said, it is still very early alpha, and there is still much room for change / improvement.

and @Torian, i wasnt making a spec or speculating , I was simply taking the talents as they are and breaking them down PvE wise, on how many we would all take as a mandatory DPS increase, I know it will change, and I currently do not own a horse.

[Notos]

The point is that the talents are pretty well balanced against each other and nothing feels mandatory, which means that this design has potential. Yes the talents are lackluster compared to some other classes, and hopefully Blizz takes the hint and makes things better, but again that's besides the point.

[Crableg]

The point is that the talents are pretty well balanced against each other and nothing feels mandatory, which means that this design has potential. Yes the talents are lackluster compared to some other classes, and hopefully Blizz takes the hint and makes things better, but again that's besides the point.

This ^^

Yes some of the talents are not as shiny as the other classes, but none of them feel mandatory, which is exactly what Blizz is aiming for.

[Magemaer]

Tyrian, i understand that you're not excited with these talents.
But honestly they're not doing any bad for raiders. Rotations will still exist. Mages will still have blink, ice block. The possibility of bringing ice barrier, (new) blazing speed, cauterize, instant invisibility, along with other situational spells. I don't know what else a pve mage could want. Insane damage, interesting mechanics, amazing survivability (ice block etc) and mobility (blink etc) spells. Would you prefer new flavor over pure efficiency?
Now pvp wise these changes are very welcome. Every spec will bring deep freeze, shatter, improved counterspell, improved blink. And every spec will be able to chose between some amazing pvp talents. Every single tier of the new talents is useful for pvp. There are some great choices that will affect the playstyle.

I understand lack of excitment. But not frustation.
Pve? Great damage, suvivability, mobility. Same basic rotation for every mage. Few situational choices.
Pvp? Great damage, mobility, control. Fire and arcane are getting more control and survivability. There'll be different styles.
What's wrong with that picture?

[pyrostorm9001]

Now pvp wise these changes are very welcome. Every spec will bring deep freeze, shatter, improved counterspell, improved blink. And every spec will be able to chose between some amazing pvp talents. Every single tier of the new talents is useful for pvp. There are some great choices that will affect the playstyle.

This frustrates me. Its fine to make PvE Frost suffer for so long due to the awesome PvP talents. but when you make said talents baseline its ok to buff Frost to Arcane/Fire's level? Did I miss something here?

[Ryken]

I don't think Scorch is quite as brainless for a fire mage as you imply, Blizzard said Fire will no longer have bonuses to fire damage because it'll be the only spec with access to non-scorch fire spells anyway so scorch will do equal damage for every spec

Except fire's mastery makes all direct damage fire damage do 40%, so Scorch is 40% more useful to fire than the other 2 specs.

[Deleted]

Except fire's mastery makes all direct damage fire damage do 40%, so Scorch is 40% more useful to fire than the other 2 specs.

Mana adept also effects scorch. And I think fires mastery isn´t balanced yet, they just took the 40% of the old ignite. If fire and arcane get the same damage increase (on a percentage basis) for every point of mastery and if both specs still have 8 mastery on default, scorch should deal similar damage for both specs. (There might be little differences because arcane can loose AB stacks when using scorch for too long. And fires mastery only effects direct damage spells, so fires mastery has to be a little bit stronger for direct damage spells than arcanes mastery in order to keep it balanced. But it won´t be 40% more useful for fire)

[Magemaer]

but when you make said talents baseline its ok to buff Frost to Arcane/Fire's level? Did I miss something here?

Yes you missed. They're not making all frost talents baseline. Deep Freeze is baseline. Ice Barrier is a choice. BUT, as far as we know, they're taking away Improved cone of cold and Shattered Barrier. That's a nerf to frost control.
Frost will still have the water elemental. But aside from that (and bigger shatters) it'll have the same abilities that fire/arcane have/can have: Deep Freeze, Ice Barrier, Frost Nova, Ice Block, etc.
In terms of control and survivability frost will be pretty close to fire/arcane right now. So yea it's ok to buff Frost now. Hopefully Frostbolt will hit like a truck on mop.

[Rayzzer]

What a waste of time. Talents will be revamped many times before the release.

Swizzle Warning: Keep it on topic and don't insult the effort people have put into something. If this was an actual infraction, the warning you heard would have been followed by a loud, incessant whining.

[TyrianFC]

I do agree though, that we require more polishing and tweaking, maybe making some more "fun" talents, however, as Torian said, it is still very early alpha, and there is still much room for change / improvement.

Be careful using the 'its still very early' cliche. Why? Because there are many, many examples of things which were spotted/identified very early - yet were never changed. Not during alpha/beta, and not even in the entire expansion that followed.

What a waste of time. Talents will be revamped many times before the release.

Exactly the same thing was said during Cataclysm alpha/beta about many things. And guess what, we still have many of them even now. So when is it, exactly, that you feel people should be allowed to talk about it?

Players should indeed be mindful that things are 'subject to change' - but dont sit back and assume that simply because 'its early' in the process, they actually will change. Or insist that everyone refrain from discussion / identifying and disecting problems, simply because "it's early". Guess what? It often goes live still anyway, no matter how early things are commented on or spotted. Thus, it's never too early to discuss this sort of thing.

Much of what people dislike about Arcane now, for example, was all pointed out very early in Cataclysm beta by myself and others on the beta forums. And here we are, over a year later, hoping the next expansion will address it. Early Cata problems regarding fire (specifically mana and how the spec was affected when combat ratings were slashed) - again - all pointed out very early during beta. They weren't addressed for many months after release.

These talents are no different. Yes it's early, but it's still bordering between naive and stupid to use that as a crutch-excuse to inhibit discussion on them.

Back to the OP: I think a good way to assess the state of Mage talents is simply to have a quick read of the Warlock / Druid / Deathknight ones. They are a lot more innovative and have many more fun concepts collectively. It's no wonder Mages refer to our current talents as 'boring'. The current talents, as you implied, might indeed eliminate a 'cookie cutter spec'. But that alone still doesn't mean they're suddenly exciting or fun.

---

I'd sum up the mage talents by saying: They simply have (and/or play off of) too much pre-existing stuff. We need a few more fun ideas / concepts / innovations thrown in. This doesnt necessarily mean we need new spells. Playing off of Polymorph is a novel idea, for example, but still is a poor chance for a Level 90 talent.

[Karazee]

Level 45 - Presence of Mind / Scorch / Arcane Flows

Here we get some choice, scorch would be taken by fire mages (Presumably), then the choice comes between PoM and AF (bring back the days of PoM Pyro maybe !), i predict most arcane mages taking AF to help with the lack of movement allowance in the rotation, however, no direct DPS boost here either.

As Fire, I would probably take Presence of Mind. I think with Living Bomb, Hot Streak and other things, there are reasonably enough things to cast when movement is necessary. Presence of Mind, however, can force a Pyroblast DoT when you need it either because Combustion is up or because you're about to need to spread your dots to AoE things down. Presence of Mind is a great way to combat some of the RNG that the developers (stupidly) insist on basing the spec on.