Grinding In GW2.

[Fencers]

I'll have to disagree and say, "a grind is different for every GAME". Grinds can be pleasant and casual for EVERYONE, it's really up to the developers how they treat their quest/progression material. I believe there is a definite reward in grinding, but the stump in the road is how to make it rewarding without all the frustration. We'll really just have to see what ANet has in store. Open Beta will give us the answers we need.

The problem is what makes grinds frustrating is not universal. Many game have a grind component but mask it cleverly. In MMOs grind is often made more apparent by the fact you play them for so long. Whereas you might only really play say, Ocarina of Time for a couple of months as opposed to years.

[Durzlla]

Strength in numbers! Hooray!

I'd totally grind for trivial things like titles, pets, cosmetic armor sets, etc. I don't like grinding for mounts though. Even though mounts wont be in the game (thank god), I hated grinding for those. If ANet is going to implement grinds in the game, they need to be completely optional. Take that "put away the tools" quest for example. It's a grindy quest, but it's something you can choose to do, or not to do. It depends really; do you want to waste time, or keep moving? That's how grinds should be. They need to put the word "pleasant" in every casual grind they make. Which brings me to...



I'll have to disagree and say, "a grind is different for every GAME". Grinds can be pleasant and casual for EVERYONE, it's really up to the developers how they treat their quest/progression material. I believe there is a definite reward in grinding, but the stump in the road is how to make it rewarding without all the frustration. We'll really just have to see what ANet has in store. Open Beta will give us the answers we need.

I'd really like to see some options on grinding for some things, like maybe you can get a pet from doing the put the tools away quest, but maybe they also give you the option to do a quest where you gun down a bunch of guys with a turret or something, and you could go back and forth in order to get the rep or w/e it is that you're grinding in order to get the object.

[Cuchulainn]

The problem is what makes grinds frustrating is not universal. Many game have a grind component but mask it cleverly. In MMOs grind is often made more apparent by the fact you play them for so long. Whereas you might only really play say, Ocarina of Time for a couple of months as opposed to years.

That's one of the things that bothers me about players. Even if an idea is improved, they'll still be frustrated that it's similar to the original idea. Take mororcycles for example; the Asians took a western idea and improved upon it, then westerners come back with "lol plastic crotch rockets". People are just afraid of evolution. No, not in the sense of "change", but in the sense of "improving". The progression of "grinding" has improved over the span of MMORPG gaming, and still it's seen as a bad thing, and this is because devs have failed to make it a good thing. Take the LFD tool as an example; it's pretty much a 50/50 good/bad thing, but it can become a 100% good thing if devs IMPROVE it. A good thing everyone accepts and loves. Well...mostly everyone. You're still going to have little bitches complain about every little thing they can think of.

BTW, OoT wan't grindy at all, if that's what you're getting at. Mask collecting and fishing were things you could do any time during the game for fun. They were a grind, but fun nonetheless. I beat that game in its' entirety 12 times. No regrets.

[Fencers]

That's one of the things that bothers me about players. Even if an idea is improved, they'll still be frustrated that it's similar to the original idea. <snip>

Yea, it's definitely an element that is hidden better in some games than others. It's the overtness coupled with mandatory grind in many MMOs that sorta sours players on the idea of repetitive gameplay.

I was just thinking about how well Skyrim hid it's repetitive quests of bounty collecting and assassinations. The player comes to those quest lines somewhat passively and they are always optional. "Oh hey, you're a thief? Want a job?" where it might be "Oh hey, you're a rogue? Go kill 10 rats for 21 days." in an MMO. Not that the genres are the same, but I am speaking strictly in how games can present players with tasks we know out-of-game as filler quests [not main story] but in-game is a cohesive element of gameplay.

Sorta what I mentioned earlier in the thread about creating a cohesive design is good design. Before people wanted to argue over virtual homicide, of course.

BTW, OoT wan't grindy at all, if that's what you're getting at. Mask collecting and fishing were things you could do any time during the game for fun. They were a grind, but fun nonetheless. I beat that game in its' entirety 12 times. No regrets.

Only speaking in length one might play a game over an MMO. You really are not investing nearly the same amount of time in Ocarina of Time as World of Warcraft or whathaveyou. Particularly in the most tantalizing and rewarding aspect of gaming- the meta-game.

The grind elements aren't always mandatory in single player games, but they are there to some degree. Collecting all the stars in Mario, unlocking costumes in Tekken, accessing all the toys in GTA, etc. And of course not everyone likes fishing... because it's the worst video game idea ever!

Fishing = worst grind of all. I will write angry emails to Anet if they include fishing in GW2. F__, virtual fishing, man. Hate, hate, hate, hate.

[Loaf Lord]

Idk, the combat in this game seems interesting enough to take the sting out of grinding.

[Blznsmri]

unlocking costumes in Tekken

I got every single costume for every single person (the 500k ones) in Tekken 5 only to have my memory card get corrupted.

[Ynna]

Idk, the combat in this game seems interesting enough to take the sting out of grinding.

This doesn't really influence that. Well, only slightly, because interesting combat mechanics postpone the point where you feel the grind.

[Questar]

what does it mean by "grind"? do u mean killing tons and tons of mobs? doing dailies for rep to buy purple from vendors? going about the map herbing and mining for crafting/gold?

i think all of those should be kept to a minimum. logging in just to do those things then logging out is a "grind" to me.
in order to get mats/special items/gold, i think players should travel the world doing DEs then get rewarded in some way from that.

another way i like to gain items is through the AH/trading. now that gw2 gives players the ability to offer gold items that the AH does not yet offer, YOU can be a questgiver.

[Cuchulainn]

Yea, it's definitely an element that is hidden better in some games than others. It's the overtness coupled with mandatory grind in many MMOs that sorta sours players on the idea of repetitive gameplay.

I was just thinking about how well Skyrim hid it's repetitive quests of bounty collecting and assassinations. The player comes to those quest lines somewhat passively and they are always optional. "Oh hey, you're a thief? Want a job?" where it might be "Oh hey, you're a rogue? Go kill 10 rats for 21 days." in an MMO. Not that the genres are the same, but I am speaking strictly in how games can present players with tasks we know out-of-game as filler quests [not main story] but in-game is a cohesive element of gameplay.

Sorta what I mentioned earlier in the thread about creating a cohesive design is good design. Before people wanted to argue over virtual homicide, of course.

Which I agree with, and also goes back on the quest where a Charr smith with ask you "hey, you want to help me gather tools? You don't have to, but I sure could use a hand!" instead of "Grab my tools, mindless adventurer. Also, I will meticulously spread my tools around my shop every day, and you must help me pick them up for 21 days in order to buy my wares". What I meant by "improving" was them taking a tool (like LFD) and making it better. This goes for the quest system too.

Well presented quests: GW2 has them.

what does it mean by "grind"? do u mean killing tons and tons of mobs? doing dailies for rep to buy purple from vendors? going about the map herbing and mining for crafting/gold?

i think all of those should be kept to a minimum. logging in just to do those things then logging out is a "grind" to me.
in order to get mats/special items/gold, i think players should travel the world doing DEs then get rewarded in some way from that.

another way i like to gain items is through the AH/trading. now that gw2 gives players the ability to offer gold items that the AH does not yet offer, YOU can be a questgiver.

Read the thread.

[Event Horizon]

This doesn't really influence that. Well, only slightly, because interesting combat mechanics postpone the point where you feel the grind.

I don't know about that. I think have a very dynamic combat system will help greatly when it comes to grinding. Think of playing God of War, these games are essentially one large grind with boss fights but you never notice because the combat is so dynamic and fun

[Cuchulainn]

I don't know about that. I think have a very dynamic combat system will help greatly when it comes to grinding. Think of playing God of War, these games are essentially one large grind with boss fights but you never notice because the combat is so dynamic and fun

Inb4 someone tries to counter you by saying "hurr durr, 2 difrint genres".
[Edit]: Event Horizon was a fucking awesome movie. Almost more awesome than sex with bacon lube.

[tohyatvc]

I don't want grinding to be an essential part of the game, but if there were optional grinds, to piss away some time, I think that's fine.

[Ynna]

I don't know about that. I think have a very dynamic combat system will help greatly when it comes to grinding. Think of playing God of War, these games are essentially one large grind with boss fights but you never notice because the combat is so dynamic and fun

I was actually going to use God of War as an example to make my point, but decided against it, for some reason. God of War's combat is one of the most elegant, fluent systems on consoles. It plays incredibly well, but if I had to do nothing but combat for 30 minutes in that game, I'd loath it just the same. You'll notice that GoW is paced with puzzles, platform sections, variations on default combat and combinations of that, just so the game doesn't become a grind.

[Cuchulainn]

I was actually going to use God of War as an example to make my point, but decided against it, for some reason. God of War's combat is one of the most elegant, fluent systems on consoles. It plays incredibly well, but if I had to do nothing but combat for 30 minutes in that game, I'd loath it just the same. You'll notice that GoW is paced with puzzles, platform sections, variations on default combat and combinations of that, just so the game doesn't become a grind.

And GW2 has crafting, bar brawls, shooting galleries (at a carnival area where other minigames can be played), puzzles in dungeons, other things you've mentioned and more. I'm sure you know this though, and I don't know why you ignored mentioning it in your post.

[Durzlla]

And GW2 has crafting, bar brawls, shooting galleries (at a carnival area where other minigames can be played), puzzles in dungeons, other things you've mentioned and more. I'm sure you know this though, and I don't know why you ignored mentioning it in your post.

ARe there really puzzles in dungeons?! If so that's AWESOME!!

[Fencers]

DDO had puzzles in dungeons. That game had the best dungeon design I ever seen. The rest of the game was kinda crummy though.

[Svava]

I just hope for the love of my sanity it's not as cataclysmically monotonous like Aion's leveling system.

[Valeron]

DDO had puzzles in dungeons. That game had the best dungeon design I ever seen. The rest of the game was kinda crummy though.

QFT

DDO had the best dungeons I've seen in an mmo.

[Fencers]

QFT

DDO had the best dungeons I've seen in an mmo.

Yea, I loved soloing dungeon in that game too. :s

Call me crazy but I just love to dungeon crawl. I'm re-leveling a hunter in WoW right now and having a blast going back to solo all the 5 mans. And I do it in Rift, Vindictus and Runes of Magic too. :s

LOVE IT!

I know it's unlikely in GW2 but I would love a solo dungeon option. Am a huge fan of scaling content, why not bring that scaling to dungeons? My POV, of course.

[Ynna]

And GW2 has crafting, bar brawls, shooting galleries (at a carnival area where other minigames can be played), puzzles in dungeons, other things you've mentioned and more. I'm sure you know this though, and I don't know why you ignored mentioning it in your post.

I know, but it wasn't what I was responding to, so my argument didn't need it. I was just saying that a cool and elegant combat system doesn't do much to alleviate grind. Variety does, and Guild Wars 2 seems to have a lot of it.

But mini-games also don't truly help removing grind, unless they offer useful rewards. But I haven't really looked into any kind of reward system for Guild Wars 2, so I won't dive into that part of the discussion.