4.3 has been a great advertisement for 10man raiding.

[Deleted]

In Korea, 10 mans are seen as hardcore, while 25 mans are more casual. Just saying...

How is that relevant? 10man is mathematically easier, 25man is way harder in t13. Facts.

[Deleted]

All the top 25 man guilds were banned for exploiting, It's kind of hard to exploit LFR with 10 people. Besides the fact that it's clearly obviously that Dragon Soul 10m is easier than 25m.

Not at all. Many guilds weren't banned but they are getting once again trumped by 25man.

On my server, a really good 25man guild (always top 100 before now) is still stuck at 1/8 heroic. It's simple math that 10m is lower tuned. Especially the DPS Requirements are too hard on 25man compared to 10man, resulting in a lot easier kills for 10man.

[dakalro]

the funny thing is most of the people who say 10mans are easier don't do them. If they do do them then they do it after having done the 25man versions and have learned the fights already. The reality is that the player responsibility in a 10man is such that a single mistake wipes the attempt and killing a heroic 10man boss is often 6-10 minutes of fighting without making a single error.

So yeh if I had already learned the fights on 25man, took the best geared / skilled players I had from our 25man (and 25mans do allow you to gear up a lot better you can clear a 10man for 6 months and not even see some items) and had an optimal raid comp then sure I would say 10mans are easier too.

Since this thread has turned into yet another 10man vs 25man thread I expect it'll be locked soon enough

I say it and I've done them, not on the char that I did 25man with. Killed Rag 10 HC on melee dps and ranged dps and 25 HC on 2 x ranged dps and melee dps. In tier 12, outside of beth who was quite picky about your dps being very good at killing spinners and having decently geared tanks and healers (gear fight, what ranged classes you bring, not mechanics), 10 was easier than 25, not by much but noticeable.

Soon we'll start the alt 10 man HCs for Dragon Soul and I'll see for myself. I have a ranged dps main and will be hopefully melee dps or tank in 10 HC, or healer, or ranged dps. For now I can only say Hagara was Lootgara on both 10 and 25 Heroic on PTR.

[Jalynfein]

I wouldn't consider 10 man raiding as competitive raiding. You might as well have competitive 5 mans...

Ehm dragon soul might be slightly easier ian way for 10 man on some bosses but for firelands 10 man was harder so don't give us that shit.

[dakalro]

From an individual player standpoint, they are the same exact thing.

well, I like the freedom of movement 10 allows on most fights. I HATED Domo on 25. Helloooo everyone sitting on my damned portal or always bumping into someone. Not to mention Torment navigation as ranged in 25. Or not falling into traps positioning on Rag HC. Or being able to pretty much solo interrupt Alysrazor or any class that can also stun.

[Deleted]

How is that relevant? 10man is mathematically easier, 25man is way harder in t13. Facts.

For you and everyone else stating this, let's take a look shall we?




On the left is the current 25 man kills, on the right is the 10 man.
(Screencap taken at 13:45 GMT on 9/12/2011).

We're only looking at Heroic kills here, because let's face it, those are what count in the 10vs25 discussion.
Now noone can deny that there are more 10 man guilds. It's just a fact, there are.
So, what we should be looking at is the PERCENTAGE of kills, not the raw number.

So let's compare...

H: Morchok = 21.48% (25 man) vs 12.56% (10 man)
H: Zon'ozz = 2.10% (25 man) vs 0.57% (10 man)
H: Yor'sahj = 0.39% (25 man) vs 1.17% (10 man)
H: Hagara = 0.52% (25 man) vs 0.17% (10 man)
H: Ultraxion = 0.10% (25 man) vs 0.10% (10 man)
H: Warmaster = 0.06% (25 man) vs 0.02% (10 man)

Spine and Madness remain unkilled.

So, judging by the relative percentages of each raid size, 4 of the first 6 bosses have been killed by a higher percentage of 25 man guilds than 10 man guilds.
By the stats, Yor'sahj is the only fight that 10 mans are finding easier at present (and when you consider the mechanics of a certain green coloured ooze, it's not hard to work out why), and Ultraxion is currently been killed roughly evenly on each.

Even if you make the argument that 10 man percentages are adjusted slightly by 'less progressed' guilds, so are 25 man. Even then, the impact on the stats won't be astronomical, and certainly not enough to push 10 man past 25 man.


So please, stop sprouting these BS statements without any evidence. It just makes you sound like a fanboy / butthurt / bitter raider holding on to a very outdated idea that 10 man is far easier than 25.
On some fights it will be, and equally 25 man is easier on others.

[dakalro]

Ehm dragon soul might be slightly easier ian way for 10 man on some bosses but for firelands 10 man was harder so don't give us that shit.

IT WASN'T! I started 25 on 368 ranged char. I started 10 on 368 melee dps/healer on Beth/Baleroc. 10 was a bit simpler and easier, a lot less stressful when it came to dps at least.

---------- Post added 2011-12-09 at 01:58 PM ----------

For you and everyone else stating this, let's take a look shall we?




On the left is the current 25 man kills, on the right is the 10 man.
(Screencap taken at 13:45 GMT on 9/12/2011).

We're only looking at Heroic kills here, because let's face it, those are what count in the 10vs25 discussion.
Now noone can deny that there are more 10 man guilds. It's just a fact, there are.
So, what we should be looking at is the PERCENTAGE of kills, not the raw number.

So let's compare...

H: Morchok = 21.48% (25 man) vs 12.56% (10 man)
H: Zon'ozz = 2.10% (25 man) vs 0.57% (10 man)
H: Yor'sahj = 0.39% (25 man) vs 1.17% (10 man)
H: Hagara = 0.52% (25 man) vs 0.17% (10 man)
H: Ultraxion = 0.10% (25 man) vs 0.10% (10 man)
H: Warmaster = 0.06% (25 man) vs 0.02% (10 man)

Spine and Madness remain unkilled.

So, judging by the relative percentages of each raid size, 4 of the first 6 bosses have been killed by a higher percentage of 25 man guilds than 10 man guilds.
By the stats, Yor'sahj is the only fight that 10 mans are finding easier at present (and when you consider the mechanics of a certain green coloured ooze, it's not hard to work out why), and Ultraxion is currently been killed roughly evenly on each.

Even if you make the argument that 10 man percentages are adjusted slightly by 'less progressed' guilds, so are 25 man. Even then, the impact on the stats won't be astronomical, and certainly not enough to push 10 man past 25 man.


So please, stop sprouting these BS statements without any evidence. It just makes you sound like a fanboy / butthurt / bitter raider holding on to a very outdated idea that 10 man is far easier than 25.
On some fights it will be, and equally 25 man is easier on others.

If you haven't noticed on your realm let me tell you why those numbers. Have you noticed how everyone and their dog is in a 10 man guild nowadays? Even if said guild always has to PUG 1-2 players for every raid they do and get stuck halfway through normal by the end of the instance life. I would say there are a lot more useless 10 man guilds nowadays (that get counted as a guild but kill almost nothing) than 25.

[Grogo]

Check wowprogress stats, don't even bother trying to deny that 10 man is easier.

How about we check your reality instead? A lot more 10m raid teams going now than 25, it makes sense it should show on wowprogress. Actually, it's proving that both 10m and 25m are close in level of difficulty.

[Degenerator]

It's not hard to not make errors when the game you're talking about requires very little skill and has a low learning curve. Try playing any of the Tribes games in a competitive environment and you'll see how easy WoW is in comparison. Don't even remark about how an fps can't be compared to an mmo; the fact is, if a game requires skill it doesn't matter what kind of game it is.All it takes to succeed in raid progression is three things: time, attention/effort, and a steady Internet connection. Unfortunately, if only one or two people in a raid lack either of the latter two progression suffers.


No, that many guilds were exploiting LFR silly. /sarcasm

I will and I am 100% sure that many others will say the same. The skill level required in an FPS is in no way comparible to WoW. If you really disagree then I suggest you have never played an FPS at any decent lvl. The skill ceiling in WoW in PvP and PvE is relatively low, in an FPS it is MUCH higher.

[Deleted]

I know it is harder to manage a 25 man raid considering the RL has to work with 24 other players, but there is always someone who can compensate for the mistake another person makes. 25 man raids are very forgiving compared to 10 man raids. If one of the dps or healer dies in a 10 man, thats a huge loss of dps/healing. So saying its not competitive is wrong. But to say its easier to manage, I agree to that.

In a 5 man dungeon with 1-3-1 setup, tunning the difficulty to the level of a raid heroic encounter, losing a tank dps or healer would be even more devastating. It is all about how you define raid. A 10 man raider reacting to comparisons with 5 mans should at the very least understand a 25 man raider that HAS to be combared with 10 man raiders at this expansion.

[Asmalya]

25's are harder with less loot per person, but i dont care, they are far more enjoyable, a close nit 25 guild helps alot of course.

Less loot per person? Dude tell that all those 10m that always see the same token every week and dont get to gear up because of it while you get likey stuff someone always can use.

[Grogo]

How is that relevant? 10man is mathematically easier, 25man is way harder in t13. Facts.

Lets see your math on that...yeah..i thought so.

[Hightotem]

I will and I am 100% sure that many others will say the same. The skill level required in an FPS is in no way comparible to WoW. If you really disagree then I suggest you have never played an FPS at any decent lvl. The skill ceiling in WoW in PvP and PvE is relatively low, in an FPS it is MUCH higher.

I have played FPS and it's just about repitition when it comes to skill, I have played with some of the best, even back in the quake / arena tournament days and firing off rpgs at spawn and path locations without knowing if a opposition player will be there or not is also based on luck just as much as skill.

[Grogo]

We're only looking at Heroic kills here, because let's face it, those are what count in the 10vs25 discussion.
Now noone can deny that there are more 10 man guilds. It's just a fact, there are.
So, what we should be looking at is the PERCENTAGE of kills, not the raw number.

So let's compare...

H: Morchok = 21.48% (25 man) vs 12.56% (10 man)
H: Zon'ozz = 2.10% (25 man) vs 0.57% (10 man)
H: Yor'sahj = 0.39% (25 man) vs 1.17% (10 man)
H: Hagara = 0.52% (25 man) vs 0.17% (10 man)
H: Ultraxion = 0.10% (25 man) vs 0.10% (10 man)
H: Warmaster = 0.06% (25 man) vs 0.02% (10 man)

Spine and Madness remain unkilled.

So, judging by the relative percentages of each raid size, 4 of the first 6 bosses have been killed by a higher percentage of 25 man guilds than 10 man guilds.
By the stats, Yor'sahj is the only fight that 10 mans are finding easier at present (and when you consider the mechanics of a certain green coloured ooze, it's not hard to work out why), and Ultraxion is currently been killed roughly evenly on each.

Even if you make the argument that 10 man percentages are adjusted slightly by 'less progressed' guilds, so are 25 man. Even then, the impact on the stats won't be astronomical, and certainly not enough to push 10 man past 25 man.

Nicely done.

[Dunkman]

The reason 10m is always going to be easier is because if you have a whole group of players to choose from you can optimize the raid for specific encounters since a lot of 10m is dealing with what you don't have. It seems like we spend the first hour or so of learning every new heroic fight saying "I wish we had a <blank> for this fight." Sure, we have alts, but we do our best not to go there unless absolutely necessary (last tier for H Baleroc we eventually just bit the bullet and brought a shadow priest). For a static raid group 10m is much harder (not than 25, I'm not going there, it's just much harder than it would be if you had a pool of 25 players to pull from) on certain fights where you don't really have the best classes for that encounter.

[Un0]

The most noticable reason why 10 mans might be easier is not due to the raids themselves but rather the managing of a 25 man guild beeing that much harder. Other than that 10 man would be by defenition harder. This due to lack of ability to carry dead weight, there is a lot less room for error (you don't have nearly the same ammount of possible backups in 10 man as you do in 25 man), oh and not to mention that loot in 10 man is far more random than it ever was in 25 man (sure you get completly random items in both but the chance of seeing the item you want drop is much much greater in 25 man than it is in 10 man, even if you have to compete with more people, there is a higher chance you will get what you want.)

Hence the most prominent reason we see more 10 mans is not because they might be easier (which I rather think they are not), but rather that they are easier to manage.

[one]

Check wowprogress stats, don't even bother trying to deny that 10 man is easier.

This and everyone else who thinks this....
10 man have better progress in numbers is simply because gathering 25 players is a big bothersome for most of ppl, so 10 peeps gather screw rest and go rock
And that is why, take it or ignore it and noobly keep ranting like a nab who ever thinks is different now
And 10 man requires serious concentration and haves less room for mistakes then 25 man
For 25 man you simply need numbers, but most of players simply hate(cba) or afraid or just incapable making logistic for big number raids

AND this above speech is valid for "average" number of top guild
The high high top progress guilds that have really very smart people at command decisions have calculated all the variables and know that 25 man is easier then 10 man, thus is why you have top top guilds in progress are made of 25 mans raids

Thought this 10 mans i also always hated from day 1, because you cant get 25 ppl in but always end up ditching out at least 3-5 players and not like with 15 players you can do a 25 man raid...

So how was said earlier give 15 man raids is really the magic number now(and dont give me the oh oh my god the balance is hard to do there)

PS: Free to stamp my words in stone

[stgeorge78]

All the top world first guilds require the core raiders to have 2 accounts anyway, with both accounts being fully geared out, just in case they do get banned, so the majority of "banned players" are actually playing right now without a problem.

[Caykor]

I think the reason that everyone is saying that 10 man is easier is because there are 3 fights right now which are considerably easier on 10 man. Zon'ozz, Yorsahj, and Ultraxion are easier in 10 man. For example a typical kill on Zon'ozz in 10 man is 20 seconds before enrage, a typical first kill for a 25 man is about 20 seconds after enrage. On Yorsahj it is the same thing where people are hitting enrage on 25 man but on 10 man enrage is not the problem at all. With Ultraxion the dps requirement and the amount of people who have to stay down during hour of twilight on 25 man is pretty ridiculous compared to 10 man. I do think that spine and madness will be somewhat easier on 25 man than 10 man and that is where we will see the 25 man guilds catch up to all the 10 man ones.

[Degenerator]

I have played FPS and it's just about repitition when it comes to skill, I have played with some of the best, even back in the quake / arena tournament days and firing off rpgs at spawn and path locations without knowing if a opposition player will be there or not is also based on luck just as much as skill.

Dont want to derail, but wow is more repetition than anything else, the boss does the same thing all the time in pve, certain comps simply destroy other comps by doing the same thing. FPS games are infinitely more dynamic and are never the same.

Firing off some random shots in the hope of a kill has nothing to do with the skill of the game, its a by-the-by.