Sargeras vs Old Gods

[Aquamonkey]

Spoken like Mike Tyson, before Buster Douglas beat his ass.

The last time they faced Sargeras, he was restrained by the rules of the Pantheon and order. He is now chaos and destruction incarnate. Since the rest of the Titans haven't tossed him into a padded cell somewhere, there is the implication that the entire Pantheon can't defeat him, either. In other words, he, himself, is as powerful as the group who defeated the Old Gods the last time.

Titanic power spans the cosmos, while Old God power is limited to Azeroth.

Sargeras wasn't with the Titans when they fought the Old Gods on Azeroth.

There is no indication that Sargeras has had any contact with the Titans since he left.

Old Gods span the universe with the intention of conquering it and are not actually from this dimension.
"It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!" Of course, this quote could just be fanaticism.

A'dal says: "One in particular, a servant of the Old Gods known as Harbinger Skyriss, seeks to usher in his masters' vision of conquering all of the worlds in the universe."

[Myrandron]

Old God would win in a one on one fight between the two. Note it took majority of the Titans pantheon to weaken and imprison the Old Gods, who probably weren't at full power from fighting each other non stop so if a full power one were to fight Sargeras, well it would make him look like a playground bully. Majority of Old God vs Titan one on one fights an Old God would win.

[Aquamonkey]

Old God would win in a one on one fight between the two. Note it took majority of the Titans pantheon to weaken and imprison the Old Gods, who probably weren't at full power from fighting each other non stop so if a full power one were to fight Sargeras, well it would make him look like a playground bully. Majority of Old God vs Titan one on one fights an Old God would win.

The Titans were handicapped by not trying to kill the Old Gods (after Y'Shaarj). The Titans could have just demolished the planet with re-origination to wipe out the Old Gods if they weren't trying to salvage Azeroth.

[Lightfist]

Old Gods are parasites.

The Burning Legion are destroyers.

The Old Gods admit the Legion's power.

The Legion barely acknowledges the Old Gods.

Sargeras destroyed entire worlds by himself.

Old God would win in a one on one fight between the two. Note it took majority of the Titans pantheon to weaken and imprison the Old Gods, who probably weren't at full power from fighting each other non stop so if a full power one were to fight Sargeras, well it would make him look like a playground bully. Majority of Old God vs Titan one on one fights an Old God would win.

It stated no where that even a single member of the Pantheon was present during the ordering of Azeroth, let alone the majority.

Like most 'Old God fans', your knowledge of lore is... lacking.

[Mavick]

The results of this poll and the comments in the thread really demonstrate how completely clueless most people are on wow lore.

- - - Updated - - -

Old Gods are parasites.

The Burning Legion are destroyers.

The Old Gods admit the Legion's power.

The Legion barely acknowledges the Old Gods.

Sargeras destroyed entire worlds by himself.



It stated no where that even a single member of the Pantheon was present during the ordering of Azeroth, let alone the majority.

Like most 'Old God fans', your knowledge of lore is... lacking.

And it also stated nowhere that they weren't. However, it was explicitly stated that the Titans had the fight of their lives simply *containing* the Old God's who weren't even banded together as the Titans were. "Sargeras fan".

[Aquamonkey]

It stated no where that even a single member of the Pantheon was present during the ordering of Azeroth, let alone the majority.

Most of them were. They empowered the Aspects.

Aman'Thul empowered Nozdormu.
Eonar empowered Alexstrasza and Ysera.
Norgannon empowered Malygos.
Khaz'goroth empowered Neltharion.

The ones not canonically present were Golganneth (RPG has him making the Sea Giants) and Aggramar (RPG has him off fighting the Legion). Just to be extra clear, the RPG books are not canon.

Sargeras had already left the Pantheon long before this.

[Deleted]

They felt the nearness of their freedom quickly approaching. How ironic that it would be one of the hated Titans who would prove the instrument of their release! It had taken the combined might of many Titans to even force them into captivity; after their triumphant return, there would be little effort needed to eradicate this single, arrogant creature and turn his warriors into serving their cause.

- The Old Gods, in The Sundering, Book 3 of War of the Ancients, talking about Sargeras attempting to enter Azeroth through the Well of Eternity.

The way this quote is written makes me think that the old gods where underestimating Sargeras. They where thinking of him as just an average titan while he was the most powerful one who was empowered further after he dabbled with fel magic. Of course this alone doesn't mean that the old gods wouldn't have a chance against him but the fact that the Burning Legion has destroyed countless worlds indicates that Sargeras must have killed old gods before because we know that there are many of them. With these points in mind I believe that Sargeras would beat the Azerothian old gods. Sure, if we take old gods from all over the universe they would outmatch him but old gods are not known for cooperating with each other.

[Arbs]

The Titans fought the Old Gods head on & imprisioned them, Sargeras was the Titan's strongest Warrior.

[Lightfist]

The results of this poll and the comments in the thread really demonstrate how completely clueless most people are on wow lore.

lol

And it also stated nowhere that they weren't. However, it was explicitly stated that the Titans had the fight of their lives simply *containing* the Old God's who weren't even banded together as the Titans were. "Sargeras fan".

Imprisoning them would be by and far harder than outright killing them. Titans can simply re-originate entire worlds in 'the time it takes a mortal heart to beat once'.

Your arguments are impotent.

Most of them were. They empowered the Aspects.

Aman'Thul empowered Nozdormu.
Eonar empowered Alexstrasza and Ysera.
Norgannon empowered Malygos.
Khaz'goroth empowered Neltharion.

The ones not canonically present were Golganneth (RPG has him making the Sea Giants) and Aggramar (RPG has him off fighting the Legion). Just to be extra clear, the RPG books are not canon.

Sargeras had already left the Pantheon long before this.

The Ordering of Azeroth and the empowering of the Aspects were two different events. Considering their advanced technology and magic, I'm not even sure the Titans would have had to be there in person to empower them.

To the Titans, Azeroth is just another planet. It's not special. I can't see why the majority of their leadership would come just to clean it up.

[Aquamonkey]

The Ordering of Azeroth and the empowering of the Aspects were two different events. Considering their advanced technology and magic, I'm not even sure the Titans would have had to be there in person to empower them.

To the Titans, Azeroth is just another planet. It's not special. I can't see why the majority of their leadership would come just to clean it up.

Satisfied that the small world had been ordered and that their work was done, the Titans prepared to leave Azeroth. However, before they departed, they charged the greatest species of the world, the Dragonflights, with the task of watching over Kalimdor, lest any force should threaten its perfect tranquility. There were many Dragonflights in that age, yet there were five flights that held dominion over their brethren. It was these five flights that the Titans chose to shepherd the budding world. The greatest members of the Pantheon imbued a portion of their power upon each of the flights' leaders. These majestic dragons (as listed below) became known as the Great Aspects, or the Dragon Aspects.

[igame]

All old god's together would kick Sargeras butt I reckon.

[Berri]

Where is N'Zoth? He was mentioned at Blizzcon, then was talked about in Dragon Soul. What is going on with him?!
N'zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn't defeat it... maybe someday we'll get our chance? Don't expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though! (Source)

Clearly, N'zoth alone is a handful; the Titans couldn't even defeat or imprison it. I honestly think that Sargeras would have a very hard time facing off against N'zoth, let alone the combined forces of the Old Gods.

[Mavick]

lol



Imprisoning them would be by and far harder than outright killing them. Titans can simply re-originate entire worlds in 'the time it takes a mortal heart to beat once'.

Your arguments are impotent.



The Ordering of Azeroth and the empowering of the Aspects were two different events. Considering their advanced technology and magic, I'm not even sure the Titans would have had to be there in person to empower them.

To the Titans, Azeroth is just another planet. It's not special. I can't see why the majority of their leadership would come just to clean it up.

Right, harder after they all ganged up on them one by one since Old God's NEVER allied with each other at any point until after they were defeated. This is that simple feat of logic you fail to grasp in every one of your posts. And please, quote your source for "the time it takes a mortal hear to beat once". Even if that WERE true what does it even matter, they'd already taken care of all resistance anyhow. We're talking about "Old God forces" vs one ex-Titan.

[Deleted]

Such much fail and misinformation in such threads.

[Aquamonkey]

Where is N'Zoth? He was mentioned at Blizzcon, then was talked about in Dragon Soul. What is going on with him?!
N'zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn't defeat it... maybe someday we'll get our chance? Don't expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though! (Source)

Clearly, N'zoth alone is a handful; the Titans couldn't even defeat or imprison it. I honestly think that Sargeras would have a very hard time facing off against N'zoth, let alone the combined forces of the Old Gods.

That only applies to when the Titans used non-lethal force. They defeated the Old Gods by casting a magical sleep spell and imprisoning them. Apparently that spell failed on N'Zoth.

Titans have no problem killing Old Gods. They just chose not to after killing Y'Shaarj because of the damage it did to the planet.

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

Plus, they can just demolish the planet with re-origination to kill the Old Gods if the infestation is too far-gone and saving the planet is no longer an option.

Right, harder after they all ganged up on them one by one since Old God's NEVER allied with each other at any point until after they were defeated. This is that simple feat of logic you fail to grasp in every one of your posts. And please, quote your source for "the time it takes a mortal hear to beat once". Even if that WERE true what does it even matter, they'd already taken care of all resistance anyhow. We're talking about "Old God forces" vs one ex-Titan.

The Titans could have easily demolished Azeroth with re-origination to wipe out the Old Gods if they weren't trying to salvage it.
Archivum System says: Searching... Destruction of Prime Designate is considered the first warning sign of systemic planetary failure. Algalon observer entity's arrival is followed by planetary diagnostics resulting in one of two possible reply signals. Reply-code Alpha, signaling "All is well" and Reply-code Omega, signaling planetary re-origination.
Brann Bronzebeard says: Planetary re-origination? Speak plainly, ye blasted machine!
Archivum System says: The decomposition of the planet and its living organisms into base elements: metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint.
...
Archivum System says: Algalon diagnostics assess danger of systemic Old God corruption in planetary vital functions. Calculating chance of Omega Reply-code...
Archivum System says: Ninety-nine point nine nine percent.

As for the mortal heartbeat:
Algalon the Observer yells: I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?

[Chain Chungus]

I really think Sargeras would win. It is clear that his power has gone way beyond any other Titan.

A giant, living piece of metal that is engulfed in fire versus some organic gunk whose main power is manipulation?

I guess it might come down to semantics in the end. In terms of sheer power: Sargeras. In terms of controlling others: the Old Gods.

Also, you really cannot say "the Old Gods." They are not unified. Pick a single Old God and match it up with Sargeras and then compare.

That being said I think he could take on all of them at once anyways.

[Mavick]

That only applies to when the Titans used non-lethal force. They defeated the Old Gods by casting a magical sleep spell and imprisoning them. Apparently that spell failed on N'Zoth.

Titans have no problem killing Old Gods. They just chose not to after killing Y'Shaarj because of the damage it did to the planet.

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

Plus, they can just demolish the planet with re-origination to kill the Old Gods if the infestation is too far-gone and saving the planet is no longer an option.


The Titans could have easily demolished Azeroth with re-origination to wipe out the Old Gods if they weren't trying to salvage it.
Archivum System says: Searching... Destruction of Prime Designate is considered the first warning sign of systemic planetary failure. Algalon observer entity's arrival is followed by planetary diagnostics resulting in one of two possible reply signals. Reply-code Alpha, signaling "All is well" and Reply-code Omega, signaling planetary re-origination.
Brann Bronzebeard says: Planetary re-origination? Speak plainly, ye blasted machine!
Archivum System says: The decomposition of the planet and its living organisms into base elements: metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint.
...
Archivum System says: Algalon diagnostics assess danger of systemic Old God corruption in planetary vital functions. Calculating chance of Omega Reply-code...
Archivum System says: Ninety-nine point nine nine percent.

As for the mortal heartbeat:
Algalon the Observer yells: I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?

I love your supposition here. Ignoring the fact that they did indeed "re-originate" the planet once they were done with the Old God's. And I think it's pretty clear by now mortals, at least mortal's of those times, couldn't stand up to the entirety of the Titans. Of course things have changed by now, since raids take down Old God's and Titan keepers alike. Nothing of what you're saying really applies to the main argument here.

[Tenjen]

Old Gods are parasites.

The Burning Legion are destroyers.

The Old Gods admit the Legion's power.

The Legion barely acknowledges the Old Gods.

Sargeras destroyed entire worlds by himself.

It stated no where that even a single member of the Pantheon was present during the ordering of Azeroth, let alone the majority.

Like most 'Old God fans', your knowledge of lore is... lacking.

The Old Gods are mutators and Rulers.

The legion are defilers and destroyers.

The Pantheon are developers and seeders.

(from a point of view, the 1st value can be seen as the exact same thing)

Where have the Old Gods admitted the Legion's power? And it isnt "the legion barely acknowledges the Old Gods", its more like the Old Gods have kept them out of the Legions notice and past precedent such as during the shattering, shows that they've been manipulating their efforts here. The Old Gods are more aware of the Legion and the legion is aware of them. this puts them at the advantage, not the legion.


1v1 sargaras could possibly win but at great cost to himself. Thing is it took multiple titans (but assumed to be Pantheon members, this may not be the case) to bring down and contain individual old gods. sargaras may be stronger than each titan, but that doesnt mean he's stronger than many collective titans.

We have no interaction between the Old Gods and Legion, except for some situation manipulating by the Old Gods in certain situations.

if it came down to tactics, deviousness and manipulation. the old gods would do to the legion what the legion does to us.

They may take down sargaras without ever facing him directly. Just putting him in a situation where he himself would throw himself into and get slaughtered again. Thats where their strength lies.

[Aquamonkey]

I love your supposition here. Ignoring the fact that they did indeed "re-originate" the planet once they were done with the Old God's. And I think it's pretty clear by now mortals, at least mortal's of those times, couldn't stand up to the entirety of the Titans. Of course things have changed by now, since raids take down Old God's and Titan keepers alike. Nothing of what you're saying really applies to the main argument here.

No. They ordered and shaped the planet after they were done with the Old Gods. They didn't blow it apart to base elements and reconstruct it from scratch. That's why it's called the "Ordering of Azeroth," not the "Re-Origination of Azeroth."

Those raids defeated enfeebled Old Gods. Titan constructs are not Titans.

[Aeryana]

I voted Old God just on account of Burning Legion having some of the worst leaders ever. If Sargeras were even remotely competent he'd have removed Kil'jaeden as "master strategist" right the Hell after Illidan turned on him. Like,"Guy, you're done. Go take a siesta. Clearly something ain't working here and you're dead set on doing the same thing over and over again."

Old Gods are pretty much weaker than ever (except N'Zoth apparently) and their original forces they used to fight the Titans are broken or openly rebelling against them.

Burning Legion has suffered nothing but setbacks for the last 20 years, but we've no clue how badly they're hurting. I imagine fairly badly if 1/3rd of their triumvirate is dead and Illidan was giving them a run for their money in Outlands.

Edit: Oh wait, maybe Kil'jaeden was replaced because the last time the BL made an attempt to go after us their plan didn't completely blow up in their faces. Sure as heck wasn't Kil'jaeden telling Varimathras he'd failed. Good on you, Sargeras, good on you.