8 or 16mans?

[Forsedar]

I guess the title was pretty general. No I am not asking what you are going to run. What I am asking is- if the general community of SWTOR is going to look at 8/16man Operations in SWTOR like they did for 10/25mans in WoW.

Our raiding core for this guild is 8man. We want to start knocking out server firsts within a few weeks of release. However, a fellow officer and I were discussing how the community/server will respond to the whole 8 vs 16mans. Lets say we down someone on 8man. Do you think people are going to be like, "Oh hey, that wasn't on 16man so I'm not impressed." etc? I don't care either way because we're still going to do 8mans so they can just shove it, but still. I'm curious.

[MuricaIsDead]

Honestly, I won't be impressed either way since I think going for server firsts is a waste of time... Even though you're actually saving time... /mindblown

[vizzle]

I don't think the mentality of 8vs.16 will be as strongly held as the 10vs.25 in WoW. The aversion to 10man raiding in WoW and how it doesn't really "count" is because WoW is originally about 25man raiding and progress (well technically 40man, but they took that out so it's 25man now) and it's only recently that 10man has been given "equal" status by Blizzard. The difference with SW:TOR is that they're starting right off the bat with both sizes being equal.

There will still be a "oh you did it on 8man so it doesn't really count" mentality, but it won't nearly be as strong as it is currently in WoW's community. The larger raid size will always -seem- harder since you have to coordinate more people, and 10man is really only harder when either or both conditions are met: the mechanics are very specific and hurt when you have lesser players, or the encounter isn't tuned properly and isn't scaling the way it should be. And this is coming from someone who raided 10man back in t11.

[JustintimeSS]

It's hard to call it right now. By default, herding 16 cats could be more of a challenge on it's own so it will be "more impressive" to some. Also, the bigger wow guilds switching over, who by default again could carry the 25 man>10 man elitism with them, will no doubt try 16 mans which conversely makes the 16 mans elite. I guess it boils down to the community and how they form elitism, because it will always surface. Someone has to be the best and what they do will be considered the baseline impressive content.

Honestly I don't care. I did 10 mans in wow and enjoyed them a lot more than 25 mans. If I happen to have 16 people on in my guild, we'll do 16 man raiding but none of us will ever think we are better or unimpressed with 8 man kills.

[Forsedar]

Well its just hard finding 16 DEDICATED players. We could easily fill a 16man. Would it be successful? Maybe a little... but it wouldn't be nearly as successful as our 8man core group that we have. I think I'll just tell the idiots who put us down for being an 8man to actually raid (since those types are generally the ones who don't raid).

Whatever, we'll just try for server firsts and try to set the '8man is okay' standard.

[TheDred1]

Coming from a still active 10 man heroic raiding guild I can totally understand that concern. 10 mans are still very much the red-headed stepchild in WoW and I had been planning for our SWTOR branch to go 16 man partially because of that.

. The difference with SW:TOR is that they're starting right off the bat with both sizes being equal.

Actually I was under the impression that they are not equal, with 8 man Operations being easier and dropping loot of a lesser quality. Was that changed at some point? I really hadn't been researching that information very closely but I was certain I heard at some point that 16 mans would be tuned slightly higher.

Mainly I want our guild to go 16 man just because I think the larger group size will be more fun.

[JustintimeSS]

Well its just hard finding 16 DEDICATED players. We could easily fill a 16man. Would it be successful? Maybe a little... but it wouldn't be nearly as successful as our 8man core group that we have. I think I'll just tell the idiots who put us down for being an 8man to actually raid (since those types are generally the ones who don't raid).

Whatever, we'll just try for server firsts and try to set the '8man is okay' standard.

Go for server firsts with your best group and forget what others think. If you meet or exceed your goals you win right? Recognition from others is only part of the celebration, not the achievement of completion itself.

[Forsedar]

Coming from a still active 10 man heroic raiding guild I can totally understand that concern. 10 mans are still very much the red-headed stepchild in WoW and I had been planning for our SWTOR branch to go 16 man partially because of that.



Actually I was under the impression that they are not equal, with 8 man Operations being easier and dropping loot of a lesser quality. Was that changed at some point? I really hadn't been researching that information very closely but I was certain I heard at some point that 16 mans would be tuned slightly higher.

Mainly I want our guild to go 16 man just because I think the larger group size will be more fun.

Both 8 and 16man drop the same exact gear <3 It has always been like that.

[TheDred1]

I'm glad I was mistaken then! I just hope they can do a better job of balancing both 8 and 16 mans out of the gate better than blizzard did with 10 vs 25. I'm sure there will always be a few loudmouths who will claim that bigger is better, but to me progression is progression.

[Encarn]

16-man all the way as I am seeking to build a community of people. 8-man seems more geared towards a small group of friends.

I still have nightmares about my first TBC guild and the dreaded Kara Groups A & B. The amount of drama it caused was epic. So I'm recruiting 21 raiders for 16-man and calling it good.

[Zarasthura]

IF they are separate lockouts, I'll be doing both.

If they're shared, 8s only until we get a bigger guild for 16s

[Traces]

16-man because I enjoy large scale PVE.

It really depends on mechanics and tuning to see if the 8-man vs 16-man argument will hold anything.

[Encarn]

Now after the Q&A, Kathy grabbed Gabe and followed up her question to get more detail. Here’s what she found out:

Right now, 8-mans and 16-mans DO share a lockout.
If and when a medium-difficulty mode is implemented, medium and hard modes will share lockout.
8 man loot and 16 man raid loot will not differ in quality, but in quantity. However, a 16-man raid will drop slightly more than twice as much loot as the 8-man version.

http://corellianrun.com/2011/08/26/t...lay-operation/

[Forsedar]

16-man all the way as I am seeking to build a community of people. 8-man seems more geared towards a small group of friends.

I still have nightmares about my first TBC guild and the dreaded Kara Groups A & B. The amount of drama it caused was epic. So I'm recruiting 21 raiders for 16-man and calling it good.

Well, do you prefer a 'small' group of great players are a large group, with only half of it great players and the other half people wanting phat lewtz? That was my problem with WoW :/ Hell, even being in a world 30 guild we had OBVIOUS players who didn't pull their weight. Don't get me wrong- I want to do 16mans, but finding *great* players is like pulling teeth.

[Strah]

Even though 8 should be as difficult as 16 i just don't find it as serious. So personally i wouldn't be impressed,like, at all.

[Nino]

i hope that wowish mentality of 8 doesnt count but 16 does doesnt present itself in a broad fashion but im sure the sentiment will be lurking there because there are alot of wow players migrating to swtor

doesnt bother me tho

i had the most fun in 10 man guilds your held more accountable for any mistakes that may occur which to me means you are able to identify what you were doing wrong more accurately and correct it faster

but thats just me

i love you

[Meleti]

I mildly prefer 16s, but I'm more interested in joining a good guild than in which raiding size is better.

[Encarn]

Well, do you prefer a 'small' group of great players are a large group, with only half of it great players and the other half people wanting phat lewtz? That was my problem with WoW :/ Hell, even being in a world 30 guild we had OBVIOUS players who didn't pull their weight. Don't get me wrong- I want to do 16mans, but finding *great* players is like pulling teeth.

I think thats a fallacy of the continuum...

If they came out with a 4-man Operation would you say, "Well, half the people in my 8-man were not really pulling their weight so I am better off playing with 4 instead."

What about 2-man? etc. It has to stop somewhere. Smaller is not necessarily better, just more challenging to manage. If you have proper management there is little noticeable difference other than a larger, potentially more active community.

[JustintimeSS]

Even though 8 should be as difficult as 16 i just don't find it as serious. So personally i wouldn't be impressed,like, at all.

And this is pretty much exactly why 16 man will somehow be considered harder/better.

Because people think this way before even touching the content and assume more people means it's harder, therefore the "real" thing and 8 mans will be lulz easy mode kiddy free loot land.

Not knocking your opinion Strah, just using you as an example.

The thing is, it became that way because of wow. WoW 25 man guilds had 25 man gear, then went into 10 mans with 25 man gear on and smoked the place and then reported to the community that 10 man raids were easy mode. And the fallacy was born.

[Apany]

16 will be more popular than the 25 in wow. The difference between the two is the double instead of 2,5. In WoW I always thought the 15 would have been the perfect number. In Swtor it's a bit different because there is only 4 class buff. So 8 could be a good number.