Holy Trinity: Arena Net gets it

[Arkenaw]

As a long-time healer in every game I play cooperatively, I just can't agree with that. Healers need to deal with almost every mechanic DPS has to deal with, healing flow and unpredictable human error. If all you're doing is watching health go up and down, you're a terrible healer. Most healers heal because they enjoy the challenge, the resource-management and the human factor. I've heard people say they think healing is easy, but I've never heard someone say they like it because it's easy.

Here you go: I enjoy healing because it's easy, as far as I'm concerned, much easier than dpsing. Here are my two mains if you think I'm just spiting you.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ldritch/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...omanath/simple

Healing is so easy that it's almost boring, but why endure more of a challenge for the same rewards (or more since there are fewer healers in a group)? I can't wait for guild wars 2 where I can be a guardian and support my team from the front lines and not have to stare at health bars.

[Cairhiin]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

EDIT: To the above poster calling healing easy. Yea no kidding when all you do is 5 man heroics and LFR. Try healing heroic raids.

[Arkenaw]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

As someone who plays healers exclusively in MMOs I can tell you that the desire to play a healer is from the horrible design of current MMOs. Anyone wanting to heal will be pleasantly surprised by how the guardian plays. Assuming they are willing to adapt of course. I can't speak for tanking though.

[Deleted]

Here you go: I enjoy healing because it's easy, as far as I'm concerned, much easier than dpsing. Here are my two mains if you think I'm just spiting you.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ldritch/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...omanath/simple

Healing is so easy that it's almost boring, but why endure more of a challenge for the same rewards (or more since there are fewer healers in a group)? I can't wait for guild wars 2 where I can be a guardian and support my team from the front lines and not have to stare at health bars.

Those "mains" have not even cleared Firelands or Morchok on normal mode so your opinion is greatly skewed due to only doing the easy things.

[Arkenaw]

Those "mains" have not even cleared Firelands or Morchok on normal mode so your opinion is greatly skewed due to only doing the easy things.

I don't actively raid anymore because the game doesn't hold any interest for me anymore. The only reason I cleared LFR was because I was on some free play time.

[Eorayn]

I hate the trinity. It sucks. So I for one am super excited they are rethinking the system.

[Questar]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

i watched a lot of arenanet dev panels and interviews. i can tell that the devs really put a lot of thought behind each of the features and innovations. every feature(controversial or not) has a solid intention towards fun.

healing and tanking are archaic concepts. there is not such thing as healing or tanking to max level. unless u count grinding dungeons. the concept is ill-fitting. wow had to implement dual-spec to band-aid that problem.

i accept that arenanet is trying to break new grounds with gw2. ppl stuck in the old school ways are angry bcos their apple is now an orange and they wanted apples.

[Enosh]

i watched a lot of arenanet dev panels and interviews. i can tell that the devs really put a lot of thought behind each of the features and innovations. every feature(controversial or not) has a solid intention towards fun.

healing and tanking are archaic concepts. there is not such thing as healing or tanking to max level. unless u count grinding dungeons. the concept is ill-fitting. wow had to implement dual-spec to band-aid that problem.

i accept that arenanet is trying to break new grounds with gw2. ppl stuck in the old school ways are angry bcos their apple is now an orange and they wanted apples.

except from everything i have seen so far that's not what's going to happen, but I might be wrong so feel free to correct me
yes there is no tank, dps or support class, every class can do everything
BUT, certain weapon combinations are still better at certain things than the others in the same class, so for instance a warrior with a sword and shield is better at taking damage and mitigating it than a warrior with a bow and a warrior with a horn has better support abilities than either, so there is still a holy trinity of tank, dps, support and you'll most probably need every one of those for an encounter
and since anet doesn't consist of various mythological deities but normal humans with flaws I am willing to bet that over the course of the game players will figure out which class and weapon combo works best for one of the roles, maybe not on every boss, a boss might do magic damage and a different class will be better at tanking that boss than one that does ordinary weapon damage, but there will still be certain class and weapons combos that will pull out that 5-10% better performance, compared to the same role in different classes

and balancing it will be a bitch

[Questar]

except from everything i have seen so far that's not what's going to happen, but I might be wrong so feel free to correct me
yes there is no tank, dps or support class, every class can do everything
BUT, certain weapon combinations are still better at certain things than the others in the same class, so for instance a warrior with a sword and shield is better at taking damage and mitigating it than a warrior with a bow and a warrior with a horn has better support abilities than either, so there is still a holy trinity of tank, dps, support and you'll most probably need every one of those for an encounter
and since anet doesn't consist of various mythological deities but normal humans with flaws I am willing to bet that over the course of the game players will figure out which class and weapon combo works best for one of the roles, maybe not on every boss, a boss might do magic damage and a different class will be better at tanking that boss than one that does ordinary weapon damage, but there will still be certain class and weapons combos that will pull out that 5-10% better performance, compared to the same role in different classes

and balancing it will be a bitch

hmm what u described.. reminded me of magic: the gathering card game, which was also an analogy the devs used for their weapon/skill/trait system. the progress players make is in gathering and collecting all the cards they want, the strategy involves sorting and choosing the cards that fit your agenda, and the skill involves playtesting and practicing with your deck. it is the same with the weapon/skill/trait system.

sure, balancing will be hard. but think about how wizards of the coast(magic's dev) deal with it. some insane 1st turn-win combo decks will emerge and wizards will move to ban/restrict the offending cards.

the reason y i have so much faith and confidence in arenanet is that if u watch/read their interviews/panels, u will find they make references to a lot of successful games(that may not be in the mmorpg genre). magic the gathering, team fortress 2, warcraft, dota are some of the ones i know. there are also some older games that i dont remember bcos i m not familiar with them.
arenanet devs are drawing from inspiration from these games to make their game fun. i think with such an open-minded yet focused on fun approach, they will be successful.

[BlairPhoenix]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

EDIT: To the above poster calling healing easy. Yea no kidding when all you do is 5 man heroics and LFR. Try healing heroic raids.

Oh? I'm pretty sure the number of healers/tanks who prefer to play completely dedicated healers/tanks is smaller than the amount of healers/tanks that want to feel more part of the action. Of course, I don't have numbers to back my statement up, but neither do you, and the point is Arenanet can't make everyone happy, so they picked the group that gets catered to less and is working on that. If you like playing a dedicated healer/tank, there are a LOT of decent quality MMO's out there that you can play. For people like us though, not so much.

[Acquiesce of Telara]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

But why, exactly, do some people hate playing a DPS class? What is it, the mechanics? The repetition? Is it mindless? Is there no sense of distinction between players? The need to feel you're contributing? Everything that necessitates the existence of pure DPS is gone. The stuff you hate about being DPS, whatever it is, is gone.

Proficient DPS will be difficult. It requires work. it requires situational awareness, the ability to react quickly, to strafe in and out, to keep yourself alive, to assist others, to work off of others... It's healing and tanking and DPS all in one. It's the best of all three roles of the trinity. If a player believes whack-a-mole healing or arbitrary attention-getting threat is what makes a different role good, GW2 is not the game for them. Thankfully.

[Blufossa]

But why, exactly, do some people hate playing a DPS class? What is it, the mechanics? The repetition? Is it mindless? Is there no sense of distinction between players? The need to feel you're contributing? Everything that necessitates the existence of pure DPS is gone. The stuff you hate about being DPS, whatever it is, is gone.

Proficient DPS will be difficult. It requires work. it requires situational awareness, the ability to react quickly, to strafe in and out, to keep yourself alive, to assist others, to work off of others... It's healing and tanking and DPS all in one. It's the best of all three roles of the trinity. If a player believes whack-a-mole healing or arbitrary attention-getting threat is what makes a different role good, GW2 is not the game for them. Thankfully.

Every role in WoW is mindlessly easy. I just haven't healed since they took away the fun flavor from each healing class/spec. Tanking has been made easier, and dps has always been easy. That's why I don't get why more people don't just do it, and do it good in LFD/LFR.

I for one am glad ArenaNet has skewed the outlook on the MMO-Trinity. Also glad there's no real "talents" or "cookie-cutter specs" anymore. I've been very tired lately of having to maximize my character and whatnot. I do enjoy WoW for what it is, but you can't just play any spec you want, and that's about that only thing that bugs me.

[Ynna]

As long as "heavy supporters" don't stand at the back doing nothing but putting an aura/wall on the floor every 15 seconds, it's all cool with me. You will have to get into the fight with your teammates, or you won't be supporting them at all.

I agree. While I'll be rocking a heavy-support build in PvE I'm still planning on using all my abilities. Good thing a Guardian can be built to have a support/control move under every button, while doing damage (which for me is just extra).

Here you go: I enjoy healing because it's easy, as far as I'm concerned, much easier than dpsing. Here are my two mains if you think I'm just spiting you.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ldritch/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...omanath/simple

Healing is so easy that it's almost boring, but why endure more of a challenge for the same rewards (or more since there are fewer healers in a group)? I can't wait for guild wars 2 where I can be a guardian and support my team from the front lines and not have to stare at health bars.

If you only play for the rewards, I don't think you truly get the idea of "fun" on a game.

[Ferocity]

No-trinity model might work very well if implemented good. One of the problems with trinity in same WoW that it is taken into absolute.

In same WoW: If you are healer, you can't dps and you barely have tools for that. As full dps you usually have very low survival and no proper healing capabilities - pure dps classes like mages can't even significantly adjust their spec to more of survival/healing. Tanks (except some abominations brought in 4.3) don't dps and can barely heal (not speaking of self-healing of DKs here), and can't adjust their build to significantly higher damage/healing output. And with class homogenization and gimping of any non-role aspect of the spec, trinity basically represents three classes with little to no customization, with endgame PvE being emphasized in raids, which are built on taking the best out of trinity role, not of class/build.

[Vlad Morbius]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

EDIT: To the above poster calling healing easy. Yea no kidding when all you do is 5 man heroics and LFR. Try healing heroic raids.

I’m sorry but the vast majority of current MMO’s are built around the trinity and I’ve mentioned, if that’s the style you prefer to play terrific, there are a lot of good choices for you out there but this is being designed for a large amount of players who don’t like the system. Frankly I think it is long past overdue, and I don’t feel any sympathy nor have any patience for players that are here wanting to try and force their want of another trinity based system design down our throats.

[omlech]

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

EDIT: To the above poster calling healing easy. Yea no kidding when all you do is 5 man heroics and LFR. Try healing heroic raids.

Oh no they very well DO get it, they're the only company that does "get it". Besides, if you want the Holy Trinity there's an absolute ton of MMOs that cater to exactly that playstyle. If you can't accept a new way to play then don't play, it's as simple as that.

[Deleted]

I saw the benefit of the tank role, but not that it required its own role with seperate gear and all. Especially with blizzard buffing tank damage some time ago.

People sometimes relied a lot on the healer, especially in heroics in WoW, I lost count on how many times I healed my ass off trying to keep people alive who stood in the fire, just to be able to finish my heroic in a reasonable time. Now they need to pay attention, or not get rewards.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Sorry to say it man, but if you think raiding in WOW, the game that balances everything around PVE and destroys pvp to do so, has less than 1% of the game as raiding you're horribly mistaken...

Are there a lot of quests and lowbie stuff for people that aren't lv 85? Yes, but the second you ding 85 you're not expected to do ANY of that content. At 85 you're thrown into either PVP or Raids with the crafting profs as side things like when you're waiting for heroics..

@Fencers, I know what you're saying, but from all the time i've played wow (POST BC) it didn't feel like teamwork. The lines between dps, healer, and tank became to defined in wrath, and even more so in cata. Back in Vanilla/BC when hybrids were still, well, hybrids, it felt more like teamwork cause if the tank died a hybrid, or hell i've seen a void walker jump in and tank before in AQ25!! Or if a healer died someone else with heals could jump in and fill the role. THAT was more like teamwork.

However now, it's more everyone just kinda stands in their designated spots and plays their "minigame" as someone else had put it. SWTOR though feels much more like Vanilla wow, and from the few hours of beta i played (up to about lv 12 or 13) it felt very teamworky, as a councilor i tanked for a bit when the tank died. And as my agenti was the last man standing on a few bosses and had to kite the guy around the room, and barely made it out alive!!

I've been max level for soon 3 years, I've done progression raiding, and for a long time I ain't been raiding at all. I do not just sit around waiting for heroics, doing my professions while waiting...that's just poppycock really, if you can't find more than that to do in a game this big, you must be very low on talent or imagination.

Since I've done progression raiding, I also know that anyone saying it doesn't take teamwork in WoW, doesn't know what they're talking about. Tons of talking and communication on vent, knowing that everyone knows what to do and when to do it, switching targets, taking turns at kiting and coordinate huge cooldown bursts etc etc...
yeah, that's not teamwork...perhaps it's knitting?

GW2 will have the exact same issues that WoW has, just like SWTOR and Rift...it'll feel epic to begin with, everyone will be SO excited and do their best, and then as time goes by more and more will just stop caring as much and more bad players show up as the word spreads. In GW2 you won't have only epic pro players willing to communicate and work together with everyone else. You will no doubt have tons of "solo" players, and nobody will tell me that those events can't be overcome with you ALONE knowing what to do, as long as the others also know their part. JUST like in WoW. I'll also wait and see how many none-guildies will actually make great use of the combo abilities and buffs unless it's absolutely mandatory.

The thing that differs, is that there is no holy trinity. Still the mechanics of fights, the community and the knowing and execution of your own particular role and your abilities, will always be around. It can't exactly be more than a game that works with a keyboard and a mouse with abilities to kill stuff and keep yourself alive.

People tend to look on new games with rose-tinded glasses, and most of them drop to the ground quite early into the new games release.

---------- Post added 2011-12-21 at 11:19 PM ----------

Oh no they very well DO get it, they're the only company that does "get it". Besides, if you want the Holy Trinity there's an absolute ton of MMOs that cater to exactly that playstyle. If you can't accept a new way to play then don't play, it's as simple as that.

I don't get it, why do people keep claiming that only Anet gets it? I really do not see how no holy trinity should be mandatory for every single mmorpg...I mean, it works for GW2, but darn it I DO want my holy trinity in other games...

[Bloodlight]

except from everything i have seen so far that's not what's going to happen, but I might be wrong so feel free to correct me
yes there is no tank, dps or support class, every class can do everything
BUT, certain weapon combinations are still better at certain things than the others in the same class, so for instance a warrior with a sword and shield is better at taking damage and mitigating it than a warrior with a bow and a warrior with a horn has better support abilities than either, so there is still a holy trinity of tank, dps, support and you'll most probably need every one of those for an encounter
and since anet doesn't consist of various mythological deities but normal humans with flaws I am willing to bet that over the course of the game players will figure out which class and weapon combo works best for one of the roles, maybe not on every boss, a boss might do magic damage and a different class will be better at tanking that boss than one that does ordinary weapon damage, but there will still be certain class and weapons combos that will pull out that 5-10% better performance, compared to the same role in different classes

and balancing it will be a bitch

For starters, no, groups WON'T need a warrior in their group for an encounter. Every profession can damage, control and support. If you want it in your WoW terms, everyone can tank, heal and dps. It has been stated more than once by Anet Devs when asked by players that a dungeon can be completed with say... 5 Thieves or 5 Rangers. Or 5 Elementalists while we're at it. People once thought that a group would need at least a Guardian, cause of they sound like they would be the "tanking" profession but then Anet shot them down by informing us that they have lower base HP pool.

Quoted straight from their recent Q and A:

Question #3: "Hi, will you be able to finish any Instance with -lets say- 5 rangers with shortbow/dagger set. So will you really have a free choice in terms of professions?"
Answer: "I will. As far as anyone else, it depends on if they are any good at playing ranger.
....
Seriously though it is our goal is that how you play your profession and skills are more important than what you bring. "

and since anet doesn't consist of various mythological deities but normal humans with flaws I am willing to bet that over the course of the game players will figure out which class and weapon combo works best for one of the roles

Right, and that is almost the point of it. I've been building my own weapons sets in excel for my Necromancer, finding the best weapon combos for Damage, Support and Control. But they won't find the weapon combos best for "Tanking, Healing and DPSing". Cause those roles don't exist. There are no taunts. There are no direct heals, hell you can't even target your group members.

but there will still be certain class and weapons combos that will pull out that 5-10% better performance, compared to the same role in different classes

I'll cry for days if GW2 gets a damage mod. So pointless and that will be the only way to be able to test ^.

and balancing it will be a bitch

There are 1319 skills in GW1. I think they'll do just fine in balancing GW2.

[Klahkeme]

As a long-time healer in every game I play cooperatively, I just can't agree with that. Healers need to deal with almost every mechanic DPS has to deal with, healing flow and unpredictable human error. If all you're doing is watching health go up and down, you're a terrible healer. Most healers heal because they enjoy the challenge, the resource-management and the human factor. I've heard people say they think healing is easy, but I've never heard someone say they like it because it's easy.

Eh, I can't speak to heroic modes because I have no interest in ever trying them no matter what the role... but when I'm approaching a fight I've never done before, either in a 5-man or a raid, I'm perfectly comfortable going in blind as a healer and don't do too bad at it. As a DPS, I want to know some things first though. At least two other people in my guild feel the same way about it. Once you get used to the basics that are present in most fights (don't stand in stuff, dispel, watch for undispellable debuffs), a lot of fights just don't seem to require much knowledge of what's coming. Maybe it's just a phenomena seen with people who only care to go as far as normal modes in WoW.

I do want to be clear that I don't like healing because it's easy. I like healing because it's simple. Big difference.

---------- Post added 2011-12-21 at 10:47 PM ----------

Arena net doesnt get it. You realize right there's people who hate playing a DPS class? And want to play dedicated healers? or tanks? What about them? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about those people.

The people in my guild who only want to tank or only want to heal (or only want to DPS, for that matter) kinda bug me a bit to be honest. I'm fine with it if GW2 is a game that doesn't fit for people who want to play dedicated roles. As others have said, the industry is filled with games that fill that niche, already.