There has to be something...

[Mkalafut]

snip

So glad you posted that. The thing that pisses me off the most is when people who never touched GW1, but have played WoW will look at GW2 and try to turn it into another WoW clone. So fucking tired of it. I wish everyone would read what you posted, but sadly, knowing the mentality of the typical WoW player you probably won't have as many as you'd like reading it. If only people had more mental capacity these days.

edit: he was right, it was worth the read.

[Fencers]

<snip>
The 2 things GW2 will give you are; "FUN" and "FREEDOM".

Warcraft offers that for many, many people. Seems more like you are tired of Warcraft rather than Warcraft having an inherent flaw that Guild Wars 2 seeks to solve.

[Jovanaar]

Warcraft offers that for many, many people. Seems more like you are tired of Warcraft rather than Warcraft having an inherent flaw that Guild Wars 2 seeks to solve.

Not really, I still play WoW, I still like WoW, I will still like WoW when GW2 comes out, but people can get so much better.

[Fencers]

Not really, I still play WoW, I still like WoW, I will still like WoW when GW2 comes out, but people can get so much better.

Hm, not sure anything you were talking about is necessarily "better" in GW2. Seems kinda dubious.

[Jovanaar]

Hm, not sure anything you were talking about is necessarily "better" in GW2. Seems kinda dubious.

What I'm saying is that GW2 has much more to offer because the end-game in WoW is too limited. If it's better it's up to the people to decide, you just cannot compare apples to pears.

[Cairhiin]

Don't even get me started on that. I never won a single piece of loot in the 4 times I ran both new raids across 2 characters. It's even worse than a guild as far as I'm concerned.

Yea raiding is all about loot! You know a lot of people raid for the challenge, and to explore the content.

---------- Post added 2011-12-28 at 10:55 AM ----------

What I'm saying is that GW2 has much more to offer because the end-game in WoW is too limited. If it's better it's up to the people to decide, you just cannot compare apples to pears.

GW2 has currently nothing to offer, as it hasn't been released yet. I am personally very interested in GW2 myself as well, and have been following its development. However, I see a lot of people setting themselves up for disappointment. Don't make assumptions about a game that isn't even in beta yet or you might end up majorly disappointed.

[Jovanaar]

GW2 has currently nothing to offer, as it hasn't been released yet. I am personally very interested in GW2 myself as well, and have been following its development. However, I see a lot of people setting themselves up for disappointment. Don't make assumptions about a game that isn't even in beta yet or you might end up majorly disappointed.

I've played this game for about 6-7 hours already and I'm thrilled for it. I'm an old veteran Guild Wars 1 player as well, I think I'm safe to say that Guild Wars 2 will succeed in their expectations. We can't tell what happens after the release, but the game itself will be great.

[Fencers]

What I'm saying is that GW2 has much more to offer because the end-game in WoW is too limited. If it's better it's up to the people to decide, you just cannot compare apples to pears.

I sorta get what you are saying but...

You kinda talk about "freedom" and limitation in Warcraft and set up that post in contra to Warcraft's options. Yet make parallel to the same aspects being in GW2... uh, what?

Pretty sure you can PVP in Warcraft if you want with "no one to stop you", many interested in elite performance are in fact having fun, rare armors/mounts/pets are equally collectible in Warcraft and the like. And there are plenty of raiders who are expressly interested & enjoying raiding.

The entire section about dungeons is the most... um, suspect.

Pretty sure Guild Wars 2 will do many things slicker and by extension "better" than Warcraft. Just a different template of design isn't indicative of any greater shake of quality though. The spirit of what you are saying is mostly awesome.

[Jovanaar]

I sorta get what you are saying but...

You kinda talk about "freedom" and limitation in Warcraft and set up that post in contra to Warcraft's options. Yet make parallel to the same aspects being in GW2... uh, what?

Pretty sure you can PVP in Warcraft if you want with "no one to stop you", many interested in elite performance are in fact having fun, rare armors/mounts/pets are equally collectible in Warcraft and the like. And there are plenty of raiders who are expressly interested & enjoying raiding.

The entire section about dungeons is the most... um, suspect.

Pretty sure Guild Wars 2 will do many things slicker and by extension "better" than Warcraft. Just a different template of design isn't indicative of any greater shake of quality though. The spirit of what you are saying is mostly awesome.

You want to PvP in WoW? Sure, be level 10 first, and if you're level 10, people with higher level will eat you up. Because they can get better gear. Etc. etc. when in Guild Wars 2 you can PvP, when/where and how you like it, it comes down to your own skill, not what spec you're supposed to choose, not the gear you're supposed to have. People tend to get pushed inside little boxes or else they cannot keep up with the higher level.

In GW2, you can keep up with the higher level if you're good enough. Not gearwise.

About limitation I mean, it stops after a while, when you hit lv 85, and I repeat; Do not like PvP. You will run out of stuff to do. Sure I can do the same dungeon 10 times a day for Justice Points, but why? How is that fun?

The Firelands quest hub is said by many the best quest hub in a long time, repeating the same quests every single day so you can get more quests you can do every day, to get a few new items which are useless in a month or 2 because new stuff comes along.

Please don't think from me as a WoW Hater, I'm not. But there are quite some things which bothers me, and I feel they could do so much more with the game.

What are Molten Core? AQ'40, Karazhan these days? Farm Raids for people who can rush through it like; "LOLOLOL look what I'm doing". If they can take what GW2 is doing, balance the whole game to the players, wherever they are. WoW could be a lot more alive.

A raid for 25 people could raid Karazhan with a challenge and receive rewards for the current tier, it's still different from GW2, but it can provide a lot more challenge and people tend not to get bored fast. (Atleast I wouldn't).

[Mkalafut]

snip

Dude don't give them anymore ideas.

[Fencers]

You want to PvP in WoW? Sure, be level 10 first, and if you're level 10, people with higher level will eat you up. Because they can get better gear. Etc. etc. when in Guild Wars 2 you can PvP, when/where and how you like it, it comes down to your own skill, not what spec you're supposed to choose, not the gear you're supposed to have. People tend to get pushed inside little boxes or else they cannot keep up with the higher level.

Isn't their PVP bracketed?

The level 10 thing seems so minor a "limiter", I don't even really know how to address it. Think I hit L10 before I even got to Stormwind to be honest.

About limitation I mean, it stops after a while, when you hit lv 85, and I repeat; Do not like PvP. You will run out of stuff to do. Sure I can do the same dungeon 10 times a day for Justice Points, but why? How is that fun?

I don't PVP. I don't run out of stuff to do PVE wise. This is naturally subjective, but as I said earlier in counter-point burnout is mostly a matter of playing the same game for so long.

The older content isn't intended to be consumed in the manner you are speaking on. Sure it would be nice if AQ was the same at L85 as L60. But that kinda misses the point of tiered raiding.

The desire to just revisit SSC, Sunwell or hang out in level 30 zones, just because is kinda misplaced.

[Jovanaar]

I don't PVP. I don't run out of stuff to do PVE wise. This is naturally subjective, but as I said earlier in counter-point burnout is mostly a matter of playing the same game for so long.

The older content isn't intended to be consumed in the manner you are speaking on. Sure it would be nice if AQ was the same at L85 as L60. But that kinda misses the point of tiered raiding.

The desire to just revisit SSC, Sunwell or hang out in level 30 zones, just because is kinda misplaced.

Their pvp is bracketed yes, but try to pvp on level 10, you'll never know what hit ya. Things are completely about of balance because of the difference of gear.

About your point of tiered raiding, exactly. That's what WoW is about, but that means old content will be there and be useless. Who's doing level 60 content on level 60? Almost completely no one. That means old content is useless and only for the purpose to burn through and get some useless eye-goodies with the Transmorph tool they put in the game?

It's such a shame they've let it go that far, their old work just useless, and that's what Guild Wars 2 would never do. DE's, dungeons will all scale and always give some other feeling because of the DE's inside the dungeons will make your experience different every time you're in it.

Dude don't give them anymore ideas.

Sorry, but that's basically what they are missing. Guild Wars 2 will be big in their own way.

[Fencers]

Their pvp is bracketed yes, but try to pvp on level 10, you'll never know what hit ya. Things are completely about of balance because of the difference of gear.

Hm, not sue about this. My experience is limited. I don't really a have a lot of respect for PVP. However, it seems mostly alright per bracket from the times I jumped.

but that means old content will be there and be useless. Who's doing level 60 content on level 60?

Well it's not useless in so much that one can still go there (they don't lol) but you kinda aren't suppose to go back there to gear up. That is their function; to allow access to the next raid zone.

It's not a flaw to push players to newer content. Kinda necessary in some regards to their design.

[SPeedy26]

Alright, I think that this thread has finally run it's course. I would like to thank everyone who has posted in here for attempting to answer my questions and ease my mind.

I can truthfully say that I am even more so looking forward to this game. Not because it may not have what I may have been looking for, but because of the reactions and helpfulness of the people that have responded. I have never met a better group of individuals who tried to explain to me certain aspects of a game without trying to berrate or insult me. And for that I thank all of you.

Things that I have learned/are more interested because of this thread:

-It may not have End-Game raiding, but it will have organization/strategies involved enough to sate my thirst
-Outdoor Elite DE's may not have the amount of organization I wish it to have, but it will promote server comraderie
-For someone like me who enjoys implementing tactics in thier fights sees thier Dungeons falling short, then I have PvP to look forward to
-This game is going to have one hell of a community

Again, thank you to everyone who has helped me out, I look forward to seeing most of you all in-game.

Glad to see your feeling better
but another thing I'd have to mention is something Bioware talks about in it's mmo and that's Story (although it's a lesser extent then in SWTOR), in GW2 every Character gets a Personal story that they can pursue which will lead to it's own ending. That could motivate players like me (who loves lore) to see the conclusion of that story (I still don't know if I should give my norn a rival to try and overcome or be the hunter of an ancient family heirloom he....lost) that's gonna be a factor that not only encourages people to reach lv 80 with a character but also encourage players toe make alts, which will encourage them to but some more room on their account once they max their all limit because they have become altaholics and then the circle is complete (inserts evil laugh)

@OP

The things which are suppose to draw you back to GW2 is engaging gameplay.

With no sub fees or necessary repetition tasks, GW2 banks on two factors: immediate accessibility via pick-up n' go gameplay 2. expansion packs.

By their own admission, GW2 devs say they don't aim to replace traditional MMOs (like Warcraft). They mean to create an MMO you can play as you wish alongside your sub MMO or play totally in of itself.

$60 for Skyrim = X hours of gameplay. No commitment to a subscription fee.
$60 for Guild Wars 2 = X hours of gameplay. No commitment to a subscription fee.

also this 1000x :P

[Jovanaar]

Hm, not sue about this. My experience is limited. I don't really a have a lot of respect for PVP. However, it seems mostly alright per bracket from the times I jumped.

Well it's not useless in so much that one can still go there (they don't lol) but you kinda aren't suppose to go back there to gear up. That is their function; to allow access to the next raid zone.

It's not a flaw to push players to newer content. Kinda necessary in some regards to their design.

But don't you see why the game meets it's limit? What more is there to do when you are "saved" with your main to the top tier raid and LFR?

[Fencers]

But don't you see why the game meets it's limit? What more is there to do when you are "saved" with your main to the top tier raid and LFR?

That content tier is totally re-playable and engaging to many as it would be in GW2. You'd run Dragonsoul because it's fun. Eventually the next tier comes out and you do the same thing again.

You'd run Catacomb because it's fun. And eventually they put out a new dungeon, not tiered, but the impulse is still.. um, fun.

[Jovanaar]

That content tier is totally re-playable and engaging to many as it would be in GW2. You'd run Dragonsoul because it's fun. Eventually the next tier comes out and you do the same thing again.

You'd run Catacomb because it's fun. And eventually they put out a new dungeon, not tiered, but the impulse is still.. um, fun.

Not really, I think people will be tired of the new content within 3-4 weeks and they want new content. And then you are forced to play the new content. This is not the case with GW2

[Fencers]

Yea getting back into that subjective "I am tired of this game" thing again...

[Jovanaar]

Yea getting back into that subjective "I am tired of this game" thing again...

Well tell me how I'm wrong about it then.

[Fencers]

Well tell me how I'm wrong about it then.

I did. It's totally up to individual players in how/when they get tired of a given content tier or particular zone. There obviously are tons of players enjoying themselves playing the game even if they ran ZG x100, they are having principally, fun. Which is no worse than running a GW 1 or 2 mission you've beaten a x110 before for... fun.

Warcraft is pretty broad in it's appeal. When you run out of stuff to do [doubtful] or simply are tired of the same old same old- play something else.

We aren't obligated to play these MMOs everyday. I don't. Many other players as well. Yet I never run out of stuff I want to do or have the experience of playing marred.

There isn't any greater a design choice in proposing, "Players will run these dungeons for fun & baubles" in GW2 vis-a-vis "Players will run these dungeons for fun & baubles till the next tier".

Where Warcraft [specifically] often falters is in providing frequency of content. They have sped it up a bit to Blizz's credit. In a macro view, not all MMOs are so slow in providing new content.

Not everyone may find ZG runs or PVP equally amusing, sure. Yet many do. The end goals are the same in both games: play for fun. They simply go about it structurally in different ways, not necessarily better or worse than each other.