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  1. #1

    Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=84943





    Hello,

    Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

    Video Examples of the Discussed Subject

    Thank You - Baznasty (Page 87) -- MUST SEE!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj6LD6H0ys8

    Thank You - Sanchpanza (Page 123) -- TOR Example www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzP0xjNLyX4

    Thank You - Samdbtto (Page 124) -- TOR Target Switch Responsiveness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXlX5...1Xqqj_g-bLhNjO


    Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

    The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

    Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

    I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

    You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

    Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.


    What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

    It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

    If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

    If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.


    Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

    From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

    And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

    0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

    Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time


    Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

    I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

    Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.



    Notable Mention:

    Page 133 -- Poster: ajjw

    "In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

    In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately."



    P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.



    -----------------------
    Last edited by brb2009; 2011-12-27 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    If you want this to be taken seriously I'd probably remove your last sentence.

    On-topic. I don't have any idea what you're talking about. I have no problem interrupting any any setting PvP or PvE. I'll just assume this isn't one of the retard posts from someone who just didn't turn off Ability Queuing in the preferences. But again. Sounds like a player issue, I can cast Lightning Strike (1.5s) hit my interrupt 1/2 way through the channel or right after and it goes off immediately so I still have no idea what you're talking about. Are you actually talking about the spell animation for the interrupt not showing up until after the 1st spell animation is done, even though the interrupt went off as soon as you keyed the button?

    That thread is full of people like me who don't have this problem so I'm inclined to agree with them. Player issue!

    edit- i just use "interrupt" as an example because you have it in there somewhere.
    Last edited by Buckwald; 2011-12-28 at 05:21 AM.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the input, although posting it here won't really do anything. It's not like any of us have any power to change game systems.

    That said, I've never experienced this elusive "delay" or "choppiness" that people talk about. As long as my server latency is reasonably low (the only time its been over 75ms is when using my Android's tethered wifi) I've never felt this delay that's been spoken of.

    Maybe it only affects certain people? That's the only reason I could think of that would make so many people say they don't notice any delay while many others say they do.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    I've noticed that I get dismounted if I move after the mounting casting cost ends, but bevore the animation has actually stopped, it's annoying the crap out of me

    haven't had more than a handful of times where the combat really bugged me because of this, but it's a valid concern, that might put people off off the game.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  5. #5
    I agree with this guy's post. My one gripe with SWTOR is that the combat feels "blocky" or "clunky", and he outlines why. I love every other aspect of this game, but WoW feels much more fluid in combat.

    EDIT: I should emphasize this video is an excellent example of why it feels clunky.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXlX5...1Xqqj_g-bLhNjO

  6. #6
    @Shamburger

    actually i was going to ask about the Ability Queuing (and reference champions online). i dont think this is nearly as much an issue as people expecting combat in a another game to be the same (but then i have actually played other mmos :P)
    Last edited by sleekit; 2011-12-27 at 11:26 PM.
    Mannoroth nodded. "The warrior shows much promise... I would see more of his kind, learn their potential..." WoTA

    gee thx Brox...

  7. #7
    That second video you linked to shows that you indeed can quick swap between two enemies at once and do damage to two enemies at the same time. This shows there isn't an ability delay, but he did go on to mention that animations can run into each which would be more of an animation delay but not a delay in the technical side of damage being dealt.

    Also we have a topic that is discussing this very issue right here on the front page:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ility-response

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Shamburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devolution View Post
    I agree with this guy's post. My one gripe with SWTOR is that the combat feels "blocky" or "clunky", and he outlines why. I love every other aspect of this game, but WoW feels much more fluid in combat.

    EDIT: I should emphasize this video is an excellent example of why it feels clunky.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXlX5...1Xqqj_g-bLhNjO
    Did you take a good look at that video? It's exactly what I said in my above post. The mob takes the damage from the grenade before the animation for it even starts AND the GCD is used when it's suppose to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what's shown in that video.

    All this thread is talking about is ability animation running into each other and that is not "game breaking" like the OP so obviously tried to make it out to be.
    Last edited by Shamburger; 2011-12-27 at 11:29 PM.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    It's not an issue caused by ability queueing, I, along with a truckload of other players have had this happen without ability queueing active. It's a fundamental flaw in the SWTOR combat system, and while it's not gamebreaking for me (at least not yet) this should be the single most important thing on their mind. Before UI problems, addons or macros.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  10. #10
    you do realise most of the people playing wouldnt care if it was turn based right ?
    Mannoroth nodded. "The warrior shows much promise... I would see more of his kind, learn their potential..." WoTA

    gee thx Brox...

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord
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    Play a Jedi Knight and use master strike. This ability more than any other highlights this problem massively.

    It is there and I don't know why people are denying it. People want the game to do well and succeed, so I don't understand why people are so opposed to criticism. It certainly is a major problem with the game and will become more apparent as people get into PvP or raid encounters become more complicated.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamburger View Post
    Did you take a good look at that video? It's exactly what I said in my above post. The mob takes the damage from the grenade before the animation for it even starts AND the GCD is used when it's suppose to. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what's shown in that video.

    All this thread is talking about is ability animation running into each other and that is not "game breaking" like the OP so obviously tried to make it out to be.
    You're right, there are plenty of you who don't notice a difference, and that's fine, but there's also a significant amount of people having issues with it, so the issue clearly exists. I was getting frustrated with this before I even knew this thread existed. This isn't a malicious complaint either, this is a bunch of people who want this game to succeed because we've been enjoying all of the other aspects. I've been playing a smuggler so I tend to notice the delayed action for all of my instant casts. I also have a Knight, and like Tojara and jvbastel mentioned, there are large issues with some of the casts, mainly Riposte and Master Strike. It's hard to explain, but the spell will get stuck, and no matter how much you hit it, you'll just go halfway through the animation then it will cancel. It's incredibly annoying with Master Strike because it's a 3 second cast.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Play a Jedi Knight and use master strike. This ability more than any other highlights this problem massively.

    It is there and I don't know why people are denying it. People want the game to do well and succeed, so I don't understand why people are so opposed to criticism. It certainly is a major problem with the game and will become more apparent as people get into PvP or raid encounters become more complicated.
    It's because there are videos showing there isn't an actual technical delay when it comes to dealing damage, the second video that the OP links to try and prove that there is a delay in damage being dealt actually proves the opposite the problem is with the animations more than anything.

  14. #14
    I have to agree. If i ever get any responsiveness issues in wow I would just reset my modem and the problem is solved. Tried to do that in swtor and the problem persisted. Still an awesome game though.

  15. #15
    This guys liberal use of the quotation mark kicked my "ass." haha

  16. #16
    I think the main problem is people expect instant cast spells to do instant damage, that isn't the case cos the moves have an animation.

    For example Rail Shot will do damage 1 second after clicking it due to the animation, it's not a problem at all. Unlike a cast move, Rail Shot can't be interrupted, the main point of instant cast spells.

    I have noticed problems with channelled spells in warzones though.
    Last edited by Tekko; 2011-12-28 at 12:10 AM.

  17. #17
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    I think that there may be two separate issues. There is the way animations, abilities and the GCD interact with each other that is different from games like WoW. I can understand disliking that. The other issue, and the one I have problems with, is the total lagfest that can occur in warzones. I don't know how else to describe it. Perhaps it IS the first issue put into a competitive, fast-paced scene but it is certainly not good. Playing a Gunslinger, Cover is very important. There are times where I press cover but don't do it until a second afterwards. It is very frustrating.

  18. #18
    i can tell you this, when im playing my marauder i got like 0 lag on any ability works perfect. while playing my sith inq. i cant say that im rly happy just becouse it goes like this for example i have my shock bound to E, if i press E twice sometimes my spell wont work but the it will use a GCD.
    By failing to prepare you are preparing to fail

  19. #19
    I found this to be very annoying when I was trying to go into cover on my Gunslinger, but atm, on my Sentinel, I don't notice it much, if at all.

    Hopefully it will be fixed, as i loved Gunslinger, but felt if I was gonna raid in SWTOR it wouldn't be as viable as others with that cover gap every time you have to move (out of aoe or what-not)...

    toomanyrifts.blogspot.ca || A Gaming Blog

  20. #20
    Deleted
    I have no clue what this is about

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