I'm thinking about passing on GW2, but I want to get my facts straight first.

[damntree]

That's actually something that's been going through my head for a few days that I haven't managed to turn into a coherent argument yet.

Alas, I remember when Wow first started handing out easy epics in WOTLK and one of the claims from the unhappy campers was that it wasn't about stats, it was about "when you see someone in T3 you know they earned it". Yet now those same people that once viewed gear ownership as more important that having stats have completely changed their tune and now aren't happy unless their gear gives them an advantage.

WoW started handing out easy epics in TBC.

[Recondition]

The reason to do the exploration mode: Because it's fun. There shouldn't be a tangible reward for everything you do in a game. I'm not attacking you, but there is this mindset that WoW and other games have promoted that players should be rewarded with something tangible for EVERYTHING they do. I think that's backwards for a lot of it because it's the rewards the keep players around, not the actual quality of the content (Skinner Boxes aren't really that fun once you realize you're in one).

As for the raids, the WHOLE game is "end game". They don't do what most MMO's have been doing, which is create this prolonged "tutorial" with leveling, and then throw out everything you did while leveling and put you into the "real" game. Instead, you will continue to explore new zones, take part in dynamics events (some of which are "raids" as they require 10 or more people to complete), do dungeons and PvP. Raiding actually limits the amount of stuff that is available at max level in games for the most part sadly.

It's really something every game has instilled if you think about it.
But if you want a more structured gaming experience, OP (Which is what it sounds like (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)) and you don't do PVP, then GW2 probably isn't for you.

[Fencers]

It was TBC, that's where the welfare epics thing started to gain traction.

OT: The motivation is suppose to be fun. Simply. Rewards are not necessarily increases in power, but can be nice clothes/armors, pets, titles, etc. All the same type of rewards you see in other MMOs. Just not +12 shoulderpads of doom type rewards. Gear in Warcraft (& similar styled games) is merely an access card to other content. But in GW2 all content is accessible and scalable to you as an 80 so there is no need for the fake barrier of gear+.

[Tackhisis]

Progression in gw2:
There will be content patches as well as new expansions. - Paid-for DLC and expansions. So 'no subscription' is a trick.

Achievements and title farming. Totally useless and not worthy of time

Exploration to unlock new abilities for your professions. What does it mean exactly?

...you can go back and forth through content to re-experienc/re-explore different areas of the game.Why would I want do the same with the same character?

A personal raise in skill level will allow you to become victorious in both pve and pvp. You don't, as developers are set to prevent development of mechanic skill of players to not kill their product.


Could someone summarize in a couple of sentences, what will I do at max. level? These options doesn't satidfy me even a bit.

[Old]

@I stand in fire and @Old: do not confuse GW2 having no "instanced" raid content (it has world boss raid content which can scale up to 100 players) or lack of getting more powerful through "stat" increases from gear as a lack of progression or incentive to play your character once you reach the level cap. there is such a thing as HORIZONTAL progression which is what GW2 uses.

Again, read as much as you want my posts, I never asked for instanced raid content and tiered gear. Ever.

Btw, GW2 does have character progression in the form of titles, achievements, skill acquisition and traits.

So yes it will alterate the game to some extend. As much as gear allows you to do more damage and overcome challenges, there are 2 possible options in GW2:

- either it's easy to get the best skills, abilities and traits, and everyone will get them, making again progression non existent because the rest of the skills/abilities/traits are useless and meaningless.

- either everything has real utility, it's hard to actually acquire everything and you end up having progression but the game is no longer about skill. It's all about who has the right traits/abilities/skills.

A boss becomes easier to kill if you have this or that ability/traits. While I strongly prefer it, it's the very same system as getting stronger gear. Skill matters to a point, but progression means more. It doesn't matter from what your advantage comes from, it ends up the same.

You'll get sliced in pvp by people with 20% more runspeed, -5s cd on spells and -10% magic damage taken. This is a really vague and probably unrealistic example, but this is what "providing new abilities, alternate tactics, or gameplay alterations" actually means.

Gear and levels are "binders" in MMOs. If you remove their impact, you have to add something with the same properties.

[Mif]

Could someone summarize in a couple of sentences, what will I do at max. level?

What will you do?
I'll bet money on trolling GW2's equivalent of trade chat all day.

[Televators]

I played GW and really enjoyed it from time to time. I also love PvP and was looking forward to doing a lot of it. However, I was turned by the fact that there literally HUNDREDS of spells and abilities for each class. It would have taken me years to play each class enough to have even a basic grasp of what to do. I hope it's not the same in GW2 or the only people that will be able to compete in PvP will be those who played from day one.

[Nikvis]

Could someone summarize in a couple of sentences, what will I do at max. level? These options doesn't satidfy me even a bit.

You'll do the same thing you did in wow at max level. The only difference is you won't be chasing gear with stats on it. Your character progression is based all on how much you're willing to increase your game sense and perfect it.

If that doesn't satisfy you then gw2 isn't the game for you.

[rzy]

No it isn't.
Just because your mind can't fathom PVE content consisting of anything other than banging your head against a gear treadmill it doesn't mean that there isn't PVE content.

Guild wars 1 was a PvP game, or more focused around that, i dont see them changing it too much, either way i am REALLY looking forward to the game

[Deleted]

Arenanet stated that Gw2 will be pretty much 50:50 PvP and PvE. So many wrong assumptions about Gw2.. Thats not a bad thing, but dont post these false assumptions as facts (first page, Gw = pvp game /thread posts)

[Enosh]

it has been said when they've let the press play they have tried explorer mode many were unable to get past the first few bosses

I really doubt that if you get 25 press members together put them into a LFR group they would be able to clear the first boss

[Lannden]

I'm going to copy what I posted a few days back.

For the longest time I was totally against this game because of a perceived lack of endgame content due to not having some sort of raid/gear treadmill. But then as patch 4.3 we were having a real hard time getting healers to show up for the raid due to the holidays. We ended up just not doing anything fun or productive those nights. "why do I raid if the loot is just a means to an end for me?" I began to think. It is all about doing fun and challenging content with my friends to me, not the loot. Why can't an MMO have some sort of challenging dungeon content without the need for gear or the perfect group make up?

Then, of all things, the Christmas event in WoW started and I went to do the Greench. The new Greench is actually a really fun and active event that the whole community that can get into. Its not perfect and becomes really easy at prime time but its still a lot of fun. It dawned on me this is what DE's in GW2 are supposed to be just without the flaws thanks to the scaling. I also remembered back to the AQ gate opening and how awesome that was, a hell of a lot better than the raid even, this game will have a world full those.

You don't need raids to have fun or be challenged in a game, that and the gear treadmill are an outdated model, at least to me.

[SPeedy26]

But what if we want to keep playing it?

keep playing it, GW2 has been made so that all content is doable so you can go back and experience the lv 45 content with it still feeling engaging as well. :P

As much as gear treadmills and "skinner boxes" are disparaged around here, they give you something to do while you're waiting for that next expansion, that next big patch. The game will be fun, and I think other MMOs are inherently fun, but it seems like where the WoW-model games encourage you to keep playing with their treadmill system, GW2 encourages to have your fill and then take a break.

The skinner box method is a tool it's good in with the right use that being said, relaying on skinner box with a gear treadmill to keep your players is never a good idea. If you've done something ten times and are borad with it having to do it another 20 times would just lead to burnout.... If your running something for no other reason then the gear then your participating in a job.

Progression is for me what defines a MMO. It can be in any aspect of the game such as PVE, PVP, storytelling, etc..You also have multiple kinds of progression in each aspect of the game. For example in PVE you can progress through a dungeon/raid. You progress on a boss, getting each time closer to a kill. You progress through the instance, getting closer to the endboss. And you progress with your skill, getting more betteras you learn.

fixed it for you :P

I'm not assuming that the ways you get gear in wow is any good. I'm not assuming that the gear range to pick from is interesting either. As of today, you really have no choice in the gear you can actually get. It's pretty straightforward and you barely have choice between 2 pieces of gear for a slot.

Normalization on both level and gear clearly removes 2 aspects of the game progression and will left you with a "jump in" game to have quick fun. If nothing rewards commitment and progression besides the look of your gear, this game will never gather a stronger enough community to keep development in high standards.

How will this never gather a strong community?

From what I can understand, progression will be somewhat separated from the gaming experience. There will be no incentive for me to do some crafting if I like the pvp armor look better. But if I prefer the crafting look, I'm forced to do some. Because afterall it's the only progression you can focus on. When I go in dungeon, it's gonna be for the sake of it. After 10 times, fun drops, if there is nothing left, why would I go? I somehow enjoy doing things that don't provide fun in the aim of a "bigger" purpose that is actually part of having fun. Achieving things doesn't necessarily mean "having fun" but it can be that sense of dedication that keeps you in a the game.

If you are tired of a dungeon after 10 times being forced to do it another 100 time won't make it fun. When something gets boring you stop doing it and do something else this is where the "gear progression" system fails. the uber leet gear trivialities any content under the current tier, GW2 allows you to play any of the content that is what's gonna keep ppl playing.

If someone is bored with a dungeon have they should play another of the 32 (8 dungeons x 4 routes)

I like "jump in" games a lot and you can find this system in Lol or Bloodline Champions, in which you have a very quick progression pattern, and then simply nothing but skill involved. It is quite good and the only 2 things keeping you in the game are: fun and/or rankings. In wow you have pretty much the same things, but with gear progression in the equation, making it a lot more complex to design, especially when it comes to balance and fine tuning. And in a MMO, commitment and dedication should reward you, not at much as skill maybe, but still on a significant level.

how about progression of player skill? because that's what both of those games are about, without the crutch of better gear players are always going to have to stay sharp on every encounter.

All in all, this doesn't really affects pvp. My only concern here is that I don't really like being raped by 3 people just because the game normalize their gear and level. I like my progression and commitment to actually mean something when I play. If I'm skilled enough, my gear and level should be part (part not the only factor) of my ability to 1v2, 1v3, etc...

I don't like getting beat down by 1 guy in pvp who has +10000 strength on the gear he framed last week.

Finally my point is that when you actually play the game, doing some pvp or running dungeon, it shouldn't only be a fun/friendly/social experience but include a progression part, even almost insignificant and negligible.

It's not a bad concept, to have no gearing progression whatsoever. Maybe I'm wrong and I misunderstood. But if not, it's all gonna depend on how deep the concept is, how far you can go and how much dedication and commitment you actually need to reach the end of the pattern.

I'm pretty sure all they have to be is fun, because if their not whats the point of doing them?

here's 2 video of progression you might want to see http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2a...mmqA8lha8Ho1ZF (a lot of swearing in this one).

[Tackhisis]

You'll do the same thing you did in wow at max level. The only difference is you won't be chasing gear with stats on it.

So there will be non-trivial, instanced PvE content for groups of 10-12 people?

What will I get for it then? Money? Does GW2 have item wear and/or permanent resurrection sickness?

[Fencers]

Seems like that guy is sorta flame baiting.

There will be content patches as well as new expansions. - Paid-for DLC and expansions. So 'no subscription' is a trick.

Is a statement that doesn't make any logical sense. It could only be worded as such to troll, frankly.

[Mif]

Seems like that guy is sorta flame baiting.

Is a statement that doesn't make any logical sense. It could only be worded as such to troll, frankly.

All Tackhisis ever does is troll, get banned, then troll again until he gets banned. Take his barbershop thread for example, he knows that in GW1 ArenaNet sold makeover packs in the cash shop, so he made that thread asking if there will be barbershops so someone trying to be helpful will answer him and then he can call ArenaNet greedy and carry on about pay to win etc.

If you read his post history it's nothing but him trolling GW2, Rift and SWTOR. The fact that he hasn't been perma banned is a sad demonstration of MMOchampions moderation loopholes.

[Fencers]

All Tackhisis ever does is troll, get banned, then troll again until he gets banned. Take his barbershop thread for example, he knows that in GW1 ArenaNet sold makeover packs in the cash shop, so he made that thread asking if there will be barbershops so someone trying to be helpful will answer him and then he can call ArenaNet greedy and carry on about pay to win etc.

If you read his post history it's nothing but him trolling GW2, Rift and SWTOR. The fact that he hasn't been perma banned is a sad demonstration of MMOchampions moderation loopholes.

Ah, I see. Well, I didn't know his history. Thanks for the information. It did seem odd the way he presented that statement... XD

Thanks again, Mif for pointing that out.

[Ynna]

All Tackhisis ever does is troll, get banned, then troll again until he gets banned. Take his barbershop thread for example, he knows that in GW1 ArenaNet sold makeover packs in the cash shop, so he made that thread asking if there will be barbershops so someone trying to be helpful will answer him and then he can call ArenaNet greedy and carry on about pay to win etc.

If you read his post history it's nothing but him trolling GW2, Rift and SWTOR. The fact that he hasn't been perma banned is a sad demonstration of MMOchampions moderation loopholes.

I was actually planning on PM'ing the regulars of the GW2-forum, but this might be easier. Wouldn't it be best to just not engage the guy? It's easy, it's clean and it doesn't get in the way of regular conversation.

[Tackhisis]

Is a statement that doesn't make any logical sense.

How else can be worded? Can you guarantee there will be no 'mission' DLC packs, which are not expansions? I will not buy anything extra except expansions to provide me with end-game content.

[Nikvis]

So there will be non-trivial, instanced PvE content for groups of 10-12 people? What will I get for it then? Money? Does GW2 have item wear and/or permanent resurrection sickness?

So what do you mean by non-trivial?
Do you mean non trivial as in it's the same content each time you play through it, or non trivial in that you get shiny purples at the end of it?

As far as I know (any body that does know is more than welcome to correct me)
The instanced segments of pve content will be 5 man (raids are ofc much bigger but the only raids i've seen has been out door raids not instanced ones ) and there are different levels of difficulty as well as alternate events that you may not have been able to see the first or second time you cleared it.

You'll get gear I believe but it'll be mainly cosmetic.

I'm sure you'll get money and a few other things as rewards.

Gw2 doesn't have res' sickness. the death penalty in gw2 is similar to moba death penalties in that it becomes harder and harder for you allies to revive you and the time spent dead before respawning increases.

---------- Post added 2012-01-01 at 06:14 PM ----------

Ah, I see. Well, I didn't know his history. Thanks for the information. It did seem odd the way he presented that statement... XD

Thanks again, Mif for pointing that out.

Yeah I won't bother responding to him anymore then