Dk/Ret/Disc: Do we seriously just train healers?

[Dyrtnap]

We're playing this comp in the 1900MMR range and sorta getting stuck.

Yesterday we faced a total of 10 glads and 2 current R1's and 3 past R1's so maybe right now with the MMR wipe and changes we aren't really gauging how well we are doing. We nearly had a kill every game except the one vs the 2 Ruthless Glads and a current Glad.

Our strat against anything other than a Disc is CC healer and go for whichever DPS is most fitting depending on what were facing. It is and is not working though. We're above 50% but not by much.

When I look over guides I usually see Zerg healer or die even from players 2600+.

Is that all there is to this comp? I haven't really pushed the Zerg Healer strat because I figured at high ratings it would stop working and I didn't want us to get into bad habits.

Can anyone playing this comp at decent levels confirm/deny what the best (general) strats for this comp are.

[Ieft]

Are you playing frost or unholy?

[Xtreeze]

Yes; kill healers before you get killed. Nuke every healer right off the bat (You can start on a DPS in some occasions) and hope he dies before you do.

[Dyrtnap]

Are you playing frost or unholy?

I play UH:

Frost is just too squishy and honestly UH has more pressure let alone utility. And in all honesty if played right I believe that with Garg + ERW that its burst is superior. I've heard many people say they think frost does more damage or has MUCH more burst and I just don't much if any difference. I've played both extensively since S6 but really with its recent buffs UH is head and shoulders above in most if not all comps. For instance we have never lost to a Frost TSG but have gotten smashed by several UH ones and TSG is supposed to be a strong point for frost.

Also another thing is that 8% does effect the Pallies damage noticeably. UF is also invaluable to either go unpeelable or keep your healer unccable when facing so many comps.

[Ieft]

Played it to 2.3 earlier in the season, as unholy.

We didn't start healers. We went whatever we thought best forced trinket on healer then switched with cd's. The reason I asked if you were uh or frost was because this strat wouldn't work aswell when playing frost.

Also with mls / shadowplay / lsd2, we would split on the two dps, the shaman would fall behind in healing pretty quickly then we'd just switch to whatever the best target was at the time.

[Deleted]

Okay, to be straight forward, trying to CC with a melee cleave doesn't work. Because you don't really have any CC

Basically, a healer without help from his teammates cannot survive 2 melees, doesn't matter how much he's faking.

What you want is it coordinate your stuns and interrupts. BOTH of you getting faked on one cast, and it's pretty much GG.
I'd suggest the following ->

Go in and get on the healer as soon as possible. What most teams try to against melee cleave is to pop CDs and counter pressure you. Don't let that happen.

Stick on to him, maybe blow wings, but nothing major. Then when he is at 60-80% health, you blow CDs. Let the DK(you I assume) interrupt first since 10yd interrupt, then if faked, ret will interrupt. If both faked or both on CD, you stun him to keep him from healing. If stun is on CD, fear him to add even more pressure. Don't think about going defensively, except for bubble and icebound to save yourself or even pre counter inc damage.

But yea that is pretty much what there is to it, not that it is an easy task. You need to have so many things going right. gl =)

[Dyrtnap]

Played it to 2.3 earlier in the season, as unholy.

We didn't start healers. We went whatever we thought best forced trinket on healer then switched with cd's. The reason I asked if you were uh or frost was because this strat wouldn't work aswell when playing frost.

Also with mls / shadowplay / lsd2, we would split on the two dps, the shaman would fall behind in healing pretty quickly then we'd just switch to whatever the best target was at the time.

I appreciate the help! This is our first week together and none of us have ever played a Meleecleave for more than a few games screwing around and I guess we're trying to play it like something it isn't. I've always hated VSing healer zerging comps and it makes me feel like I need to take a shower every time we rape a poor priest so I was hoping it wouldn't come down to that in order to play at our skill level... but oh well I really like the guys I'm playing with and soap is pretty cheap :P

We've been splitting on MLS and ShatterPlays with hard switches. We have been sitting SPriest on Shadowplay (most maps especially z-axis) those series were hard to gauge because we were facing Multi-glad's almost half the time but of the other 3 ShadowPlays we faced I think we only beat one and it was a late Dispersion.

We are getting trucked by LSD 2 and KittyCleave and are sub 50% vs RLS, PHD, KFC. I would really love some help with them.

Also a really big question is how were you handling HPals? We are basically dumping everything but strang and our 2nd-3rd HoJ into him to force bubble and then making a hard switch but so often vs Meleecleave our Priest is going down before we can force bubble and trinket and unless its a Frost DK we are having a tough time forcing them defensive enough when they smell my poor Priest's blood.

I do appreciate the help here on strats because I know 57% win is below our skill level ESPECIALLY at this low of an MMR we were all getting embarrassed even with all the games against much more experienced players taken into account.

I do really wish that the glads would stop team hopping so it isn't such a slow trip up to our T2. I've seen quite a few 2400-2600 players I know and have played with/against in the past stuck sub 2200 this season because of how weird MMR is now.

Okay, to be straight forward, trying to CC with a melee cleave doesn't work. Because you don't really have any CC

So Rep, HoJ, Strang, Gnaw, Fear and MC aren't CC? Not to mention gripped heals and DT:Charge as ranged interrupts on short CD's.

We almost (the operative word I know) dropped a multi-glad ShadowPlay (sub 5%) using that CC chain twice in consecutive games. No I'm not bragging about that I'm just saying it is quite possible to play the comp that way but I'm trying to find out if it is the optimal way or not once we get up to our skill range which is ~2400-2500. We went toe-to-toe with 5 R1's and only got dominated by the 2 Ruthless Glads + 1 current Glad LSD one match. Saying that this comp doesn't have any CC is kinda short sighted. It's not a spammable chain and if it isn't handled right its disastrous but you can very easily land kills CCing a healer with Ret/DK/Disc.

Let the DK(you I assume) interrupt first since 10yd interrupt, then if faked, ret will interrupt.

Also this is just FYI to help you out in the future.

Mind Freeze is melee range just like any other kick. It may look like more if you've had smart DK's focus kicking you from max range but any "kick" has a fairly large hit box its just that most melee are up a targets ass and have better ways to close the gap when they focus interrupt you.

[Dorkman007]

Okay, to be straight forward, trying to CC with a melee cleave doesn't work. Because you don't really have any CC

Basically, a healer without help from his teammates cannot survive 2 melees, doesn't matter how much he's faking.

What you want is it coordinate your stuns and interrupts. BOTH of you getting faked on one cast, and it's pretty much GG.
I'd suggest the following ->

Go in and get on the healer as soon as possible. What most teams try to against melee cleave is to pop CDs and counter pressure you. Don't let that happen.

Stick on to him, maybe blow wings, but nothing major. Then when he is at 60-80% health, you blow CDs. Let the DK(you I assume) interrupt first, then if faked, ret will interrupt. If both faked or both on CD, you stun him to keep him from healing. If stun is on CD, fear him to add even more pressure. Don't think about going defensively, except for bubble and icebound to save yourself or even pre counter inc damage.

But yea that is pretty much what there is to it, not that it is an easy task. You need to have so many things going right. gl =)

This is mostly what you want to do.
There are different viable strats, for instance on a spellcleave (with a shaman healer) you can focus down an easy target untill the healer pops his CDs (Spirit link) and trinket to get out of CC, pop CDs and smash the healer to bits. And you always have the option to CC-chain healer by forcing an early trinket and going heavily on dpsers.
Sometimes, however, sitting on healers is your best bet .

[Deleted]

this comp is the same has tsg, a train with tunnel, if u go defensive u loose, healer all the way/or dps (start on a dps, if the healer is sitiing on the back, then grip the healer, cds up and go for the kill or try to strugle the dps so the healer cant keep up), u dont have any viable spammable cc to long last a long fight, switching often is gona make u loose with this comp im affraid, and u play with a disc, its an ofensive comp all the way.

[DiscoGhost]

dont start healers. repentence him from the start and pray to god he trinkets, after that he should die in a hoj/strang combo.