Why does Blizzard hate Holy Paladin ?

[Thakah]

When I see my spam HR over a druid tranquility (Zon'oz pack) with wing or anythings I doesn't feel I need to be buff (without 4T13)
Stop crying

[Deleted]

Yeh, WHY give holy radiance a cast time >

[rushofcrazy]

They gave HR a cast time cause it made it 100% better than it was...thats why...

[Piitz]

Better that they nerf the 4set than the spell.

[tukchen]

Did you? I couldn't manawise. Sure in the end it got more and more DL than HL but the choice was more important since there was no real no-brainer-heal. Nowadays if in doubt cast holy radiance.

Do you even still use FoL to save someone because you have to? Most of the time now you spend your time pumping HR with the occasional Shock on lower-end-HP-players. Other than that it's mostly HL. Either the AOE damage is so overwhelming that there is just no TIME for choice or the damage is so ridiculously low that there is no need for chosing a heal.

I hate to follow logical fallacies, specifically the argument from authority but, Ajwon is 6/8 attempting Spine at the moment. I have no comparison to you as I cannot find your character page. He is right though; by the time you were up to legs on Rag you should've been using Divine Light pretty much all the time, with Holy Radiance saved for the seed explosions.

I assuming you were talking about 25mans and heroics (good god i hope so), where I have no experience, but in 10mans the only fight I just spam Holy Radiance in is Ultraxion, saving my holy power for a Light of Dawn to save people close to death. I never use Holy Shock as a means to top someone off whose low, either using Light of Dawn, Flash of Light, Lay on Hands, especially if I'm low on mana, Word of Glory if everyone is topped off (don't forget the fat crit bonus) or even Divine Light if I know heavy raid damage will not be consistent. I'm sure it is the same in 25man but probably not to the extent that it is on 10man. I often find myself choosing not to use Holy Radiance if less than 4 or 5 people are injured AND there is little AoE damage, using Divine Light, Holy Shock, Flash of Light or Word of Glory to heal 3 or 4 of them and using Holy Light for the rest.

If you think the AoE damage is overwhelming, it really isn't. Either you are using your cooldowns ineffectively or your other healers are not doing good enough. Last week I thought the damage on Ultraxion was overwhelming but I had a talk with the resto druid I was healing with and it turns out, he ran out of mana while I was sitting at 50%. This week I told him to relax and let me heal heaps. I reached blue at 25% mana with a Divine Plea off CD and he was at a healthy 85%. The AoE damage at the soft enrage was easily healed through and we did not need our boomkin to use Tranquility like last week, with the raid at 100% health when the boss died (good lord Tranq does so much healing with Red).

Now I am no where near the top in terms of how good of a player I am but I believe I am a decent player who understands how to play a Holy Pally based on the mathematics. If you do care to look at me, my character is Tukadin on US-Jubei'thos, I raid twice a week typically and sometimes choose to use 2p/2p for progression. Right now I'm testing the benefits of running Heart of Living together with Tsunami (my other trinket is the haste proc one from Warlord Zon'ozz, which I hate due to the lack of control of the proc)

[lionhearteve]

i have holy paladin , resto drood . and holy priest.

i never healed raids with paladin , never. coz i hate to be "only" tanks healer.

after 4.3 i almost stoped playing with other classes.

divine light for heavy tank dmg
WOG for snipe heals
LOD for some scattered heals here and there
HR for stack up phases

HRX3>>>LOD combo for heavy raid aoe dmg ....

not to mention becon and all the damn list of cd's and self-protection cd's that we have

what more do u want m8?

u want to be like resto druid?
Lifebloom X3 on tank
Wild growth and swiftmend on CD
tree and smash regrowth when some ppl are gonna die
go OOM

. period

[Deleted]

Normal people? We can AoE like normal!? We have by far the most powerful AoE heals so far in WoW, we are light years ahead of the other 3 specs on AoE healing such as Ultraxion.

I'm not saying we're overall OP or anything, the spell has it's downside such as the tiny range. But the 4pc had that nerf coming, 20% is just way too OP. Even at 5% it's still a decent set bonus, nothing amazing but it's ok.

[Bostonian]

In terms of your post, I think Blizz originally had 20% because they were thinking of the HoTs for HR, which 20% would be appropriate, but because the initial heal (before the HoTs) is pretty strong, they don't want that increased by 20%. A simple fix would have been 10%; I'm not convinced 5% is a good 4-set bonus, but whatever.

Yes Holy Radiance is very powerful now. But, I actually don't like the new Holy Radiance. We still use it as a stack-up heal. I rather cast it once for 8200 mana and have the HoT last 10 seconds (and be able to move around), rather than cast it 3 times (with cast time) for 24,600 mana and have each HoT last 3 seconds. The reason it heals for so much is because of the initial heal before the HoT; I don't think the 3 sec HoT is too beneficial (but i'll take it I guess). I want (enjoyed) sometype of AoE-HoT like other classes, i.e. Shaman's healing rain, Holy Priest's Sanctuary, Resto Druid's Efforence). Our Holy Radiance used to be a really nice 10 second HoT. But now it's just an AOE heal. I am suprised they kept a 3 sec HoT attached to it. I do like that HR now gives a charge of HP, so you can use it inconjunction with LoD. No 20 sec cooldown is nice too. I am just not convinced that Holy Radiance is satisfactory yet (I think Blizz will change it again).


While I'm at it with things I don't like, I am really hoping Blizz makes LoD a mana spell (with a 6 second cooldown), but keep it as strong as if you had 3 HP. There are times that I would really love to use LoD but because I don't have 3 HP built up, I have to wait. With such a change, they could lower the mana cost of HR since it's not a 10 second AoE-HoT like a shaman's healing rain. And possibly drop the mana cost of other heal-spells too. If Word of Glory was our only HP heal, I would use it more. 90% of the time I currently use LoD over WoG.

I know most people probably disagree with a lot of this, but I guess I am sooo Old School (Pre-BC & BC) with the way I think, that it's not even funny.

[Simca]

@tukchen: Holy Radiance is a huge part of healing in 10s on Morchok, Zon'ozz, Yorshaj, and Ultraxion. It is a medium part of healing on Deathwing. It is a minor aspect of Hagara, Warmaster, and Spine.

In 25s, it is a huge part of healing on Morchok, Zon'ozz, Yorshaj, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, and Deathwing. It is a medium part of healing on Hagara.

So yeah, 25-man is pretty HolyRadiancelol-filled.

[Bostonian]

Simca, on heroic Morchok, if you are assigned to tank heal, is it better to go for a Crit Or Mastery after having 2000 haste. My 25s are so AOE heavy that Pallys are still very solid tank healers and can build HP for LoD to aoe heal and throw in a HR every now in then...

[Mythricia]

And for once in our pathetic little lives we can aoe like normal healers and it gets nerfed . Why ?

AoE heal like normal people... Are you fucking kidding me? Paladin in my guild solo heals Ultraxion 10 Heroic. Solo, heals. Because of Radiance.

The 4set was nerfed veeeeeeeery quickly, and even WITH this huge nerf, it's still absolutely mindblowingly overpowering compared to any and all other AoE heals of any class. Sure it's mana heavy, but mana is not necessarily a limiting factor during short bursts of AoE - in which case, nothing beats HRadiance if the raid is stacked close enough.

Wow.

[Deleted]

Simca, on heroic Morchok, if you are assigned to tank heal, is it better to go for a Crit Or Mastery after having 2000 haste. My 25s are so AOE heavy that Pallys are still very solid tank healers and can build HP for LoD to aoe heal and throw in a HR every now in then...

By what logic would haste devalue after 2k? Even after 2k your Divine Light and Holy Radiance will still get lower cast times and your GCD will still go lower. I don't get why you picked a random number and decided to go for other stats after it, haste is haste and it's still more throughput.

With that said if you're doing only tank healing than mastery builds aren't bad, but that's a whole different story. If you're using a haste build like most people are then keep using haste, there is no reason to stop at any number. It's not like haste magically changes after 2k.

[Bostonian]

I Had remembered 2078 or something like that was a cut off for something, maybe a holy raidiance tic...anyways, to answer ur question raven, there's no way for me to get extra mastery at this point unless i stop reforging things to haste.

so you eventually answered my question. So Mastery it is for tank healing. thanks.

[scdogg44]

Content is being nerfed.

Therefore...

It won't matter if your class gets nerfed.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

While the t13 4pc nerf is pretty pointless and doesn't really affect our healing because it is OP to begin with...it therefore doesn't really warrant the 15% nerf.

Do people spam HR in PVP? Not even in RBGs

I would rather have them change it to an interesting set bonus, one that makes me think or changes one of the class mechanics rather than a static and boring +X%.

[Deleted]

While the t13 4pc nerf is pretty pointless and doesn't really affect our healing because it is OP to begin with...it therefore doesn't really warrant the 15% nerf.

Do people spam HR in PVP? Not even in RBGs

I would rather have them change it to an interesting set bonus, one that makes me think or changes one of the class mechanics rather than a static and boring +X%.

You do know the 4p have been nerfed since week 1-2 of DS?

[zakaluka]

Thanks for the info . This means that the 4 set is crap ? And I'm sorry for the whine but for the first time we can finally aoe like normal people (and I'm smelling a nerf in the 5.0.0 patch or a previous one)

I play a priest, just have a different perspective. I'm curious how the hpally community reacts. This is not a 'lolOP' post, don't worry

Holy paladin 4set is still one of the best two healer 4-sets. A 5% boost to HR should cash out at about a 3-4% boost to overall healing. Unless your guild has you tank healing, but so many guilds are experimenting with paladin-raidhealing setups now. Next best 4-set is the holy priest 4-set, which is pretty much a flat 3% hps boost but only on stacking fights. Pretty similar, right? The real tweak is mana efficiency, since no class should get top performance by stacking haste AND spamming their most expensive heal at all times. That was pretty broken.

As a comparison, holy priest mastery vs haste is pretty abysmal:
128 points of haste is going to increase both your raw HPS eHPS by 1%,
179 points of mastery increases raw HPS by 1%, but because echo is guaranteed to overheal about 50% no matter what you do it only raises eHPS by about 0.7%.
Net result is that same 128 points put into mastery instead of haste, only improves your eHPS by about 0.5%.

Holy priest mastery is horrible. It has horrible conversion, it has horrible utility. But people still stack it in 25, because we're capable of dumping pretty fast anyway, and it's our best efficiency stat.

Blizzard wants hpallys making a spike vs effic tradeoff for performance, something you all have never had to do They are telling you - you're gonna have to start experimenting with mastery-stacking itemizations.

And now, on the note of:

for the first time we can finally aoe like normal people

I catch your drift on this one, but there's a minor oversight in all these HR tweaks. All the previous patchlevels, hpaladins were designed around really strong spot heals and keeping up on meters meant firing enough LoDs. Which you couldn't do unless the encounter permitted it (this tier wouldn't have been horrible for that model, except 1 fight)

Now, though, your highest HPS spell is an area-centered raidheal, and you have no talents/abilities to make even one of your spot heals as good as Holy Radiance. Every other class has some spot heal they can use without losing throughput from AoE:
Shamans have riptide, their 2nd best heal. Also, chainheal's biggest component is a sizeable directed spot-heal.
Druids have SM, far and away their best heal. HT refreshing a mature LB has insanely high HPC. And rejuv, which is decent since druids spend tons of time in fill.
Priests have Borrowed Time and Serendipity (allowing them to completely recoup throughput lost on a PW:S or Flash Heal)
Paladin's strongest spot-heal in this tier is.... the beacon that procs off an LoD. You can't cast ANY other directs during an AoE spike without losing tons of throughput. If you can trust your druids, priests, and shamans to handle spot-heals, you should.

Yeah, paladins can AoE now. But you shouldn't be tank-healing during AoE. Good trade? I guess. Couldn't blizzard find a way to make paladins capable in either role, since most other classes are? That'd require a change to the talent trees, though.

[BatteredRose]

AoE heal like normal people... Are you fucking kidding me? Paladin in my guild solo heals Ultraxion 10 Heroic. Solo, heals. Because of Radiance.

The 4set was nerfed veeeeeeeery quickly, and even WITH this huge nerf, it's still absolutely mindblowingly overpowering compared to any and all other AoE heals of any class. Sure it's mana heavy, but mana is not necessarily a limiting factor during short bursts of AoE - in which case, nothing beats HRadiance if the raid is stacked close enough.

Wow.

You're being a smidge over-dramatic there.

[Deleted]

You're being a smidge over-dramatic there.

No he isnt, in a fight where you are stacked and there are a lot of AoE healing paladins are absolutely #1 healer no questions asked.

[kernera]

pallys are still parsing pretty high on some fights so to think that blizz hates the class your assumption is wrong.