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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue post
    This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.
    Not a bug, a simple nerf.

  2. #62
    Ok, some test results:

    SoT DOES NOT proc eye of unmaking buff anymore (and from a previous post, apparently doesn't proc AoK).

    It still gives extra procs to Shadowmourne.

    So... my guess at least, this nerf will hurt all Cata items and maybe Landslide (unsure on how to test this one).

    edit: i specced out of Seals of Command to be sure btw.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    At least it confirms it to not be a bug; they refer to it as a "fix." God I love being right.

    Anyway, we have no idea what they mean by "where we intend them to be," or whatever. I guess Arms Warriors are supposed to be the best 2-handed melee spec and Fury and Unholy can go suck it, or something? I dunno.
    Last edited by Reith; 2012-01-05 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #64
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Why does it make you angry? The Blue gave you as honest an answer as he could. Blizzard doesn't have any plan for discriminating against Ret Paladins, it just so happens that this particular issue was a bug and it was easy to fix, and so it was carried out quickly. Yes, other specs are above where they should be at the moment, but balancing them isn't quite as easy (if possible at all, see Hunters vs Spellcasters with Legendaries).
    Makes us angry because he says they have no plan for discriminating against ret (as you put it) yet they clearly are. As it stands post-nerf this weapons is nearly worthless for us.

    He pretty much said they want gurth to be drastically less powerful for ret than every other spec.

  5. #65
    Data Monster Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    At least it confirms it to not be a bug; they refer to it as a "fix." God I love being right.
    Well, like I said on the previous page - it is a old bug (like really old) that was fixed in order to nerf the spec. Therefore it is both.

    But yeah, I'm glad they're not pretending this is something they just figured out because that would be pretty sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Anyway, we have no idea what they mean by "where we intend them to be," or whatever. I guess Arms Warriors are supposed to be the best 2-handed melee spec and Fury and Unholy can go suck it, or something? I dunno.
    There will always be a best spec and a worst spec. "Where they are intended to be" is in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Makes us angry because he says they have no plan for discriminating against ret (as you put it) yet they clearly are. As it stands post-nerf this weapons is nearly worthless for us.
    Pretty sure Normal Gurth is still better than all other Normal weapons and Heroic Gurth is still better than all other Heroic weapons and LFR Gurth is still better than all other LFR weapons.

    It isn't close to "nearly worthless".
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  6. #66
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Makes us angry because he says they have no plan for discriminating against ret (as you put it) yet they clearly are. As it stands post-nerf this weapons is nearly worthless for us.

    He pretty much said they want gurth to be drastically less powerful for ret than every other spec.
    Don't forget he said that they want ret to be lower in dps while fire mages and arms wars continue to clean house.

    I'm angry because there is no logic to their reasoning. You can't logically say, in a game such as this, that ret damage is too high when it's 6k lower than fire. You can't logically believe that the sword was doing too much for rets when it still only made us somewhat competitive with other specs. You can't logically expect to balance melee-attack procs for entire roles (plate dps) around specs who have vastly different amounts of melee attacks.

  7. #67
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    Well, like I said on the previous page - it is a old bug (like really old) that was fixed in order to nerf the spec. Therefore it is both.

    But yeah, I'm glad they're not pretending this is something they just figured out because that would be pretty sad.



    There will always be a best spec and a worst spec. "Where they are intended to be" is in the middle.



    Pretty sure Normal Gurth is still better than all other Normal weapons and Heroic Gurth is still better than all other Heroic weapons and LFR Gurth is still better than all other LFR weapons.

    It isn't close to "nearly worthless".
    In theory, yes, I just went through the entire madness of deathwing encounter with only one proc, I hardly call that worth using.

  8. #68
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    Well, like I said on the previous page - it is a old bug (like really old) that was fixed in order to nerf the spec. Therefore it is both.

    But yeah, I'm glad they're not pretending this is something they just figured out because that would be pretty sad.



    There will always be a best spec and a worst spec. "Where they are intended to be" is in the middle.



    Pretty sure Normal Gurth is still better than all other Normal weapons and Heroic Gurth is still better than all other Heroic weapons and LFR Gurth is still better than all other LFR weapons.

    It isn't close to "nearly worthless".
    If the best dps is as far ahead as fire is, why would you spend your timing nerfing the ~#4 dps who's 6k behind the top? It's hypocritical to nerf us, saying that's where they want our dps to be, when fire's is so inflated and do nothing about that.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    At least it confirms it to not be a bug; they refer to it as a "fix." God I love being right.
    They actually confirmed it is a bug, and they do not confirm that it isn't a bug. They confirmed it was not changed by an accidental bug fix, that isn't the same as it not being bugged.

    They mean that it was not just a random bug fix which buggered over your damage, it was a specific fix to this bug which they did because of the reasons they listed. Check the first blue response in the thread, where someone says "It was bugged and proccing twice as much for Ret Paladins" and the blue poster says:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    This is true, and has been fixed. Gurthalak should not proc off of Censure.
    There's also here where they directly call it a bug themselves:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Yes. The bug was with Seal of Truth, so Souldrinker will proc less for paladins as well.
    And again:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    The specific bug was that paladins running Seal of Truth had two chances with every swing to trigger the proc with Gurthalak or Souldrinker. They now have one chance.
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  10. #70
    Data Monster Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    You can't logically say, in a game such as this, that ret damage is too high when it's 6k lower than fire.
    Yes, actually you can.

    By logic (not your emotions), Ret damage being too high has absolutely nothing to do with Fire. Fire is a statistical outlier that also needs to be nerfed but it is irrelevant to the position of Ret.

    Ret being too high above the median/mean damage of raiding specs is not related to the status of other specs that are also too high.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    At least it confirms it to not be a bug; they refer to it as a "fix." God I love being right.

    Anyway, we have no idea what they mean by "where we intend them to be," or whatever. I guess Arms Warriors are supposed to be the best 2-handed melee spec and Fury and Unholy can go suck it, or something? I dunno.
    Unholy is good, and currently gurth benefits from their mastery, meaning not only do they have a higher proc rate, but that their tentacles do much much more damage

  12. #72
    wasnt a nerf it was a bug fix.
    discuss

  13. #73
    2nd blue post is LOL. I don't think that residue inside Kaivax head can be called brain.

  14. #74
    the ret paladin from towelliees guild http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...didae/advanced did 98k dps on Alizabal BH, and they were doing it with 17ppl so it was not a super quick fight, i dont know but if you ask me the weapon needs a nerf not to say its not a nerf, it was not working the way its supposed to...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    In theory, yes, I just went through the entire madness of deathwing encounter with only one proc, I hardly call that worth using.
    Could just be bad luck, but I'm getting better damage with H Sulfuras now than N Gurthalak. Ill know more tonight when i go head to head with our other ret using Gurth while I use sulf. Currently this sword seems to be crap though.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-05 at 05:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxJr View Post
    the ret paladin from towelliees guild http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...didae/advanced did 98k dps on Alizabal BH, and they were doing it with 17ppl so it was not a super quick fight, i dont know but if you ask me the weapon needs a nerf not to say its not a nerf, it was not working the way its supposed to...

    LOL what? 98k??? logs to prove this? Interesing that top rank overall on this fight is 51k by a lock.

    Please don't feed misinformation.

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire Phantoms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    Well, like I said on the previous page - it is a old bug (like really old) that was fixed in order to nerf the spec. Therefore it is both.

    But yeah, I'm glad they're not pretending this is something they just figured out because that would be pretty sad.



    There will always be a best spec and a worst spec. "Where they are intended to be" is in the middle.



    Pretty sure Normal Gurth is still better than all other Normal weapons and Heroic Gurth is still better than all other Heroic weapons and LFR Gurth is still better than all other LFR weapons.

    It isn't close to "nearly worthless".
    They threw all precedent (set by TAiJ, Shadowmourne, Landslide, Bone Link Fetish, etc. when they work in harmony with Seal triggers) out the window and single out Gurthalak, making us feel "worthless" because in a raid setting we're much less valuable with the weapon than any other 2h melee class.

    I understand that the weapon is practically just as useful for us as it was before, and anybody who doesn't understand that should.

    However, in terms of raid DPS, a Ret with the weapon is nowhere near as valuable as any other 2h melee class with it. That's what people seem most concerned about.

  17. #77
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    Yes, actually you can.

    By logic (not your emotions), Ret damage being too high has absolutely nothing to do with Fire. Fire is a statistical outlier that also needs to be nerfed but it is irrelevant to the position of Ret.

    Ret being too high above the median/mean damage of raiding specs is not related to the status of other specs that are also too high.
    Balancing dps in this game is, i imagine, a large portion of a lot of people's jobs at blizzard. In the interest of balance, you cna't logically "fix" ret's dps first, when there are other specs who are far more unbalanced. I understand that this may have been the quickest, but have you heard any word about them "fixing" fire? or arms? Rogues will be too good with the legendaries, so they should "fix" them too. You can't purport being interested in balancing dps when said balancing doesn't exist.

    Sure, I might be angry over this, but it's certainly not just because I play ret. Hell I don't even have the sword. I'm mostly angry because they don't seem to think any of these things through. It was an overnight "fix" to a high-mid dps while the massively "broken" fire mages continue to stomp on everyone else's junk in just about every situation.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-05 at 11:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoms View Post
    They threw all precedent (set by TAiJ, Shadowmourne, Landslide, Bone Link Fetish, etc. when they work in harmony with Seal triggers) out the window and single out Gurthalak, making us feel "worthless" because in a raid setting we're much less valuable with the weapon than any other 2h melee class.

    I understand that the weapon is practically just as useful for us as it was before, and anybody who doesn't understand that should.

    However, in terms of raid DPS, a Ret with the weapon is nowhere near as valuable as any other 2h melee class with it. That's what people seem most concerned about.
    It's impossible for it to be "practically as useful" as it was before the nerf with the massive loss to proc chance. As far as this weapon is concerned, usefulness is determined by the damage output from the proc, of which you won't see (on average) numbers anywhere near what you would have before.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca
    It isn't close to "nearly worthless".
    This is correct, if you have no other option.

    @Abandon
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue
    There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:
    This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort.
    They've obviously never been wrong or miss-spoken.

  19. #79
    High Overlord Shaith86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sizzlinsauce View Post
    our rets are top on meters wtb fix

    This.x100
    /10char

  20. #80
    Our logs are private Max. And that 98k was on trash lol.

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