A few questions on optimising dps (Shadow)

[Deleted]

Hi,

you guys already really helped me in the fix my dps Thread but i have a few questions left that i didn't want to state in the thread to not OT it.

1. I got my 4pc t13 this friday and just want to know if the opening rotation from kilee is still in place (Volcanic Potion, SW:P, Mind Flay 2/2, Fiend, Mind Blast, VT, DP, AA) or if i should aim for a rotation where Shadow Fiend is before mind blast to guarantee Shadow Orbs (and through this Empowering Shadows).
A Mind Spike driven rotation is off the charge as i spoke to our warlock to always give me Dark Intent and he is way ahead of me with dps (Legendary and stuff) and would lose too much considering my gain. We also tested and verified this on the dummys.

2. Should i extend casting Shadow Fiend to align Power Torrent with my second Volcanic Potion to maximize dps gain?

I really appreciate your help and thank you in advance.

Best regards

syslord

[Deleted]

Volcanic pot -> pre-cast VT (landing 0.1-0.3 sec into pull) -> fiend (orb inc in 1-2 sec, dont mind blast too early or you may be unlucky) -> sw: P (filler) -> mind blast -> devouring plague -> flay until mb cd -> archangel -> mind blast -> regular rotation -> refresh VT and DP when lightweave, volcanic pot and power torret are about to fade (or when VT is fading on target obviously).

Your dots are now affected by empowered shadows, full dark evangelism, 3 int boost and potential trinket procs or will of unbinding and you're into a regular rotation with cooldowns on pause. It's also a quite optimal use of cooldowns considering how archangel and shadowfiend lines up with each other and int procs/volcanic pot.

If you get heroism/bloodlust/time warp on pull you may want to rethink rotation.

[Deleted]

First thanks for the answer but wouldn't the first VT without empowered shadows be less dps in the end?

Despite my question i will directly try this on the dummy, thanks

[Deleted]

First thanks for the answer but wouldn't the first VT without empowered shadows be less dps in the end?

Despite my question i will directly try this on the dummy, thanks

No, this is the best opener. The one you listed is way off. You always want to precast on any boss (except for madness and spine obviously) and not having VT, DP and mind blast in the opening sequence is just...
The only time you don't want to precast VT is when you can precast an orbed mind blast (assuming you dont want to mind spike).

Also, I fail to see how this isnt better than the one you listed. You get to have full dots on target (vt not affected by empowered shadows), you activate mind blast cd instantly, you activate your procs earlier (because of more dots) so they line up with shadowfiend. You even have the room to refresh VT earlier before using archangel + mind blast depending on the amount of procs you have going on and their remaining duration.

[Deleted]

No, this is the best opener. The one you listed is way off.

I took mine from kilees thread (it's sticky here in the forums), because he also posted 2 wol reports with pretty good rankings and no one in the thrad spoke against it. As this is only my second specc i am not that experienced, so i take every chance i have to optimize.

Any thoughts on my second question?

[Deleted]

I took mine from kilees thread (it's sticky here in the forums), because he also posted 2 wol reports with pretty good rankings and no one in the thrad spoke against it. As this is only my second specc i am not that experienced, so i take every chance i have to optimize.

Any thoughts on my second question?

His opening rotation has been commented a lot on when browsing through the thread, and he definitely haven't included the 4set into it. It's not really an optimal opening, but it's an easy one to pull off hence it's found in a guide. If you want to look at rankings, feel free to browse mine in my sig.
Also, it's better to have a vampiric touch running which deals 30-40 % less than a regular one in comparison to not having any VT at all.
You always want to precast. If you don't precast it's basically waste of a gcd. Also, it's better to precast a dot because it activates your procs, and VT is your highest DPET with cast time in the opening sequence, so isnt it pretty logical that VT is the best choice. And the fact that you don't want to active your mind blast cooldown until after your shadowfiend has hit the boss kind of removes that choice. Only thing left is mind spike, but that's only up for consideration if you want to pull with a mind spike rotation.

[Kilee25]

The damage you gain on VT from 5 stacks of eva, plus power torrent and other accompanying procs and ES makes up for the few ticks of lesser-powered VT you might otherwise get by starting with it. Claiming the opening rotation is going to boost anyone's DPS or make them rank on WoL is false advertisement. It's such a small part of overall DPS as to be made irrelevent.

As to using fiend and following up with MB, it takes a GCD for MB to land, it should catch the first set of orbs created. The only time you need to pause is if you're doing some kind of mind spike opener.

[Deleted]

As to using fiend and following up with MB, it takes a GCD for MB to land, it should catch the first set of orbs created. The only time you need to pause is if you're doing some kind of mind spike opener.

Some times it wont on pull (I've experienced it before on pull especially if the boss is moving), after that I've decided always to delay it at least a 0.3-0.5 sec (unless I am mind spiking), which may as well be used on a sw: p gcd. You're gonna hate yourself if you hit with your mind blast before your shadowfiend hits the target.

Also, my suggestion has same DoT self buff ramp up time with better DoT uptime and quicker activation of mind blast cooldown. I fail to see how it isnt superior.

Edit: let me change it for you.

Volcanic pot -> pre-cast VT (landing 0.1-0.3 sec into pull) -> fiend (orb inc in 1-2 sec, dont mind blast too early or you may be unlucky) -> sw: P (filler) -> mind blast -> devouring plague -> flay until 1 gcd before mb cd -> VT refresh (depends on active procs) -> archangel -> mind blast -> regular rotation -> refresh VT and DP when lightweave, volcanic pot and power torret are about to fade (or when VT is fading on target obviously).

[Deleted]

First, thank you both for your opinions, i really appreciate the help i get here.

Second, my goal is not to get me ranked but to be able to help my raid as best as i can, i also don't want you guys to do the work for me, more to get a better idea on how things work out in the end, i tested both of your options on the dummy and naturally came up with almost the same results testing for about 5 minutes and 1 time for every rotation.

The weaknes of funkys opener would be the first vampiric touch while the weakness of kilees strategy would be that it could happen that i don't have empowered shadows up for the first set of dots, kilee would you in this case suggest reapplying the dots after i got empowering shadows up (granted that would happen very early)?

I know that there is no standard procedure here but would really like to knock out the element of random here so i think i would go with funkys opener.

PS: As i said a mind spike opener would not be reasonable till i catch up on the warlocks dps.

[Kilee25]

Hm..

I think if you have the 4p bonus, and are not opening with MS, the first MB you hit has got to be with orbs. If it really isn't catching the first set, something needs to change. I've not been having a problem with it on my end, but I would say delaying MB by even a few fractions of a second would be best.

Also, I'm not sure what you are talking about with your warlock. If he has a legendary, you are never going to "catch up" to him in dps. nothing you do will ever really compare to him, unless he sucks or something. That shouldn't preclude you from opening with MS if that gets you significantly more dps. It's not going to hurt his dps enough to even compare. So I'm kind of confused about what you're saying here.

[Deleted]

It was my understanding that i should not use a mind spike driven rotation (due to 4pc t13) when the warlock will in fact lose more dps due to me using it than i gain, if i may cite you from howtopriest:

1. It doesn't work very well for the warlock attached to you with Dark Intent. Your uptime on the debuff will drop some while the shadowfiend is out (once every 90 seconds or so). If you are the highest eligible DPS in the raid by a large factor, then this won't really matter much, because the amount of dps you can contrinbute doing this far outweights the loss to the warlock (~1000 dps, minus ~200). However if it comes down to a choice between you and, say, a boomkin or a fire mage who is doing equivalent DPS to you, it becomes more of a gray area. You will want to talk this out with the warlock in your raid before you start changing your rotation significantly.

so i will just sustain to my standard rotation to allow higher dps for him as we don't always have a fire mage or moonkin available?

As to the fact of catching up with him, i do my fl runs on a weekly basis with pugs and am building my staff that should be finished within 11 weeks from now, that's when i am gonna catch up.

[Kilee25]

It's a cumulative dps gain to use use it, with or wthout DI. But if the warlock is of the mindset that he's going to take it off you if you do, don't do it.

[Deleted]

the warlock will do what's best for the raid, as i said whe don't always have fire mages and/or moonkins available so i am the only option left but as i also want to do what's best for the raid, i don't want to sabotage his higher dps while gaining fewer dps on myself, your answer showed me that it's a cumulative gain so i'm gonna use a mind spike driven rotation whenever shadow fiends up, thank your for that .

As for my other question, is it worth it to wait for power torrent to cast my second volcanic potion to use my shadowfiend?

[Kilee25]

I've been playing around with doing that lately, but it depends on a the length of the fight. Your SF will come up about once every 1.5 mins. So if the fight length lands near a multiple of that, it's better to get quantity over quality. But if delaying it doesn't affect the total number you get, it's better to hit it at an opportune time. I've been using a mod Called "Proculas" that gives me a rough idea when procs will come off CD. You may want to experiment with that mod. It's pretty useful.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the idea, this mod might come in handy, so basically it comes down to this:

if i can keep the same numbers of shadow fiend casts, it's better to wait for power torrent to throw a potion and cast shadow fiend, if i lose one shadow fiend due to this, it's a dps loss.

I already thought so, this will be pretty big on ultraxion heroic where i can just extend my second volcanic potion to the < 25% range, i would just wait till power torrent (and maybe also lightweave) proc, throw potion, fiend, sw:d, sw:d, normal rotation, sw:d, sw:d, can't wait to see the results

[Viggers]

i was under the impression that the ideal opener with 4-piece was mind flay until 5 stacks of dark evangelism, (hoping power torrent at least procs during this) then shadow fiend, archangel, MS/MB rotation until fiend is over, then going into the standard rotation. it could be that this depends on levels of mastery though.

this is for personal dps though, and the loss to the lock's dps may change this i dont know.

[Juicebox]

Based on what you told (you being the only good choice for DI), opening with the MS/MB rotation is the best. After that though you'll want to stick to the normal rotation.