Swedish government upholds forced sterilisation for transgender people

[Laize]

While i agree this is a violation of human rights... i would just like to point out...


I read that as: transgenders are only required forced sterilisation to be OFFICIALLY recognised as a sex other then they were born. If they dont care what some piece of paper says... there is no problem (especially as same sex marriage is legal in sweden).

This could be viewed/done as a way to prevent perverts from simply dressing as the opposite sex to gain access to sex restricted areas (wash rooms, locker rooms, ect). To protect law enforcements ability to enforce. To protect other people's rights.

Uhhh... can you imagine being a woman and having a driver's license that says "M" in the sex category? You really want every bartender, government official, police officer and others to know you're transgender? What about having your marriage certificate suggest you have a homosexual marriage?

You wouldn't legally be allowed in a women's room. If you got sent to prison you'd get sent to prison with men (Yeah... nothing can go wrong there)... there are MANY problems with not legally recognizing a gender change.

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 02:51 AM ----------

End of the story, you are born with a particular set of chromosomes, claiming that you know better then nature is the height of arrogance. No matter how much you enjoyed wearing your moms high heels. I mean FFS your own example of the Wikki page explains how an 'alternate gender' was an excuse many many many gay people used throughout history to justify to their peers how they behaved.

Does that mean we should stop stem cell research, gene therapy and treatment of genetic diseases? After all, these are the genes we've been born with, and fixing them would be tantamount to claiming we know better than nature.

Nature goofs sometimes. Sometimes it puts a structurally female brain in a biologically male body. Same is true of the opposite. Nature gets it right 99.999% of the time though.

[Felya]

They're people whose brains function like those of a member of the opposite sex.

This is totally not true. In the simplest form, there are parts of a man's body who's functions are not regulated by female's brain.

It's an enormous, fundamental past of someone's personality and existence.

It's just opinion. The opinion is entirely based on how you feel, not physically, but mentally. Please realize, validity of something being 'enormous, fundamental past of someone's personality and existence', depends on the value system of the person making such an evaluation. A hoarder or an addict would use the same description for their problems. Please realize, there are people who act like the opposite sex without having any sort of transgendered identity. Tom boys and metrosexuals, both identify them self as their actual gender.

The way I like to describe it is along the lines of: imagine if you woke up tomorrow and you were in the body of the opposite sex. Imagine if everyone started judging you as a member of that sex and expected you to behave in accordance with those expectations, despite the fact that you knew you were someone different. Every day you have to behave and live your life in the way your sex dictates you should in society, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you feel. If you try to live your life in the way that feels most natural to you, you suffer society's judgement for doing so.

For me, using my imagination, that day dream would end with me visiting a shrink. You are telling me, that if you had the above happen, your reaction would be that you are transgendered and not that the shrimp from last night looked a little green? At which point does your gender become the problem and not simply your personalty regardless of gender?

[Laize]

For me, using my imagination, that day dream would end with me visiting a shrink. You are telling me, that if you had the above happen, your reaction would be that you are transgendered and not that the shrimp from last night looked a little green? At which point does your gender become the problem and not simply your personalty regardless of gender?

Most transgender individuals know something is wrong as early as age 4 or 5. The feelings of wrongness only grow as they get older and the gap between genders widens. That's hardly the result of "bad shrimp".

[Felya]

Uhhh... can you imagine being a woman and having a driver's license that says "M" in the sex category? You really want every bartender, government official, police officer and others to know you're transgender? What about having your marriage certificate suggest you have a homosexual marriage?

I do not understand the problem with this. Do you want your birth certificate to retroactively change as well? Should a doctor treat your prostate or go by the license that now states your female? You want cops to treat you like a woman and doctors like a man?

You wouldn't legally be allowed in a women's room. If you got sent to prison you'd get sent to prison with men (Yeah... nothing can go wrong there)... there are MANY problems with not legally recognizing a gender change.

If you do something to get you into jail, you loose your rights to change gender. If actually not going through surgery, I would predict a lot of males would sign up as transgendered to be in women's prison instead of mans. After all, without surgery, prove it either way.

Does that mean we should stop stem cell research, gene therapy and treatment of genetic diseases? After all, these are the genes we've been born with, and fixing them would be tantamount to claiming we know better than nature.

There is no gene therapy that would change your gender and absolutely nothing about stem cells that would have anything to do with your gender.

Nature goofs sometimes. Sometimes it puts a structurally female brain in a biologically male body. Same is true of the opposite. Nature gets it right 99.999% of the time though.

Than that male body would really have strange bleeding every 28 days, as a female brain regulates. The above is ludicrous...

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 03:21 AM ----------

Most transgender individuals know something is wrong as early as age 4 or 5. The feelings of wrongness only grow as they get older and the gap between genders widens. That's hardly the result of "bad shrimp".

In the example I was responding to, you simply wake up, like after eating bad shrimp the night before. I am also wondering how gender identity is developed before cognitive thought or puberty.

[starlord]

Than that male body would really have strange bleeding every 28 days, as a female brain regulates. The above is ludicrous...

i dont think you really understand. its the brain as a whole. are infertile females not female because they dont bleed? what about genetic males with female-shaped bodies? how do you put them neatly in a box?

[Vanyali]

In the example I was responding to, you simply wake up, like after eating bad shrimp the night before. I am also wondering how gender identity is developed before cognitive thought or puberty.

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_d...d=12771&cn=462

This page and the next explain gender development in early childhood

[Felya]

i dont think you really understand. its the brain as a whole. are infertile females not female because they dont bleed? what about genetic males with female-shaped bodies? how do you put them neatly in a box?

No, genetic females do not get prostate cancer or have brain functions that regulate the prostate. It has nothing to do with sterility, but what your brain actually is. A sterile woman's brain, is still incapable of regulating a prostate. I have no clue what you mean by 'brain as a whole', because I am not talking about some sort of brain pieces.

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 03:37 AM ----------

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_d...d=12771&cn=462

This page and the next explain gender development in early childhood

Yes, in that very article is describes the sort of gender development there is at that age, as in "Children understand that gender is stable over time; however, they often think that changing physical appearance or activities can change them into the other sex." As in, at that age, a girl playing with trucks is not transgendered. As in the second line of your link, "Many people believe that sexual development does not become an important issue until puberty and adolescence. However, children begin showing sexual behavior and interest in their sexual functioning starting in infancy." In no way, even in the article you posted, does it say that children 4 or 5 can make a cognitive conclusion that there is something wrong with their gender.

[Laize]

I do not understand the problem with this. Do you want your birth certificate to retroactively change as well? Should a doctor treat your prostate or go by the license that now states your female? You want cops to treat you like a woman and doctors like a man?

Doctor patient confidentiality exists for a reason. So doctors can treat what's really wrong with you without you being afraid of being judged by society or the law. So yes, that's exactly what should happen. The doctor should check your prostate and when you're done you can put your skirt back down, grab your purse and walk out of the office.

If you do something to get you into jail, you loose your rights to change gender. If actually not going through surgery, I would predict a lot of males would sign up as transgendered to be in women's prison instead of mans. After all, without surgery, prove it either way.

That's a load and you know it. Unless someone is undergoing hormone therapy there'd be no reason to believe they're going through a gender transition.

There is no gene therapy that would change your gender and absolutely nothing about stem cells that would have anything to do with your gender.

You said we're born with one set of genes and to fool around with what they've given us is to assume we know better than mother nature. I'm pointing out how that's a ridiculous point.

Also they're using stem cells to grow working female reproductive organs for MtF transgenders and have had some success.

Than that male body would really have strange bleeding every 28 days, as a female brain regulates. The above is ludicrous...

The male body doesn't have the equipment TO bleed every 28 days. However studies show that a "male" brain can regulate female organs if the organs and hormones are present.

In the example I was responding to, you simply wake up, like after eating bad shrimp the night before. I am also wondering how gender identity is developed before cognitive thought or puberty.

Gender differences are very prevalent before puberty. Why do you think little girls usually love their pink rooms and barbies while little boys love roughhousing and books of trucks? Studies have been done that show even little girls raised as boys still prefer playing the way they were meant to. Gender differences are biological, not societal.

[Felya]

Doctor patient confidentiality exists for a reason. So doctors can treat what's really wrong with you without you being afraid of being judged by society or the law. So yes, that's exactly what should happen. The doctor should check your prostate and when you're done you can put your skirt back down, grab your purse and walk out of the office.

Isn't the fact that they are getting a male test when they are female a judgment? A police officer is an official, who's actual job it is to make a judgment based on actual information. If there is semen left at a crime scene, shouldn't the officer know that the person they are questioning is capable of producing it?

That's a load and you know it. Unless someone is undergoing hormone therapy there'd be no reason to believe they're going through a gender transition.

If I ever have to spend a long period of time, I would go through hormone therapy to get out of big boy jail.

You said we're born with one set of genes and to fool around with what they've given us is to assume we know better than mother nature. I'm pointing out how that's a ridiculous point.

Nope, never said that. Try again...

Also they're using stem cells to grow working female reproductive organs for MtF transgenders and have had some success

Sex organs, not reproductive organs.

The male body doesn't have the equipment TO bleed every 28 days. However studies show that a "male" brain can regulate female organs if the organs and hormones are present.

If you change a male brain to be more like a female brain, than it will function more like a female brain? What point exactly are you trying to make here? Does that mean that a male brain cannot function like a female brain unless it is changed? Interesting...

Gender differences are very prevalent before puberty. Why do you think little girls usually love their pink rooms and barbies while little boys love roughhousing and books of trucks?

Because that's what everyone does and kids copy or mimic.

Studies have been done that show even little girls raised as boys still prefer playing the way they were meant to. Gender differences are biological, not societal.

Really, because I have seen children raised by wolfs, that act like wolfs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxana_Malaya

That "study" also doesn't make sense, because unless they were raised as a different gender while people who raised them also had reversed gender, the end result would mean they still had social gender identity. Your study would need a complete reversal, not only on the child, but those raising them as well. Otherwise, such a study would only show how people switch to their actual gender, when they find out what it is. They would still have inherited what that gender is supposed to be like from watching everyone around them.

[starlord]

No, genetic females do not get prostate cancer or have brain functions that regulate the prostate. It has nothing to do with sterility, but what your brain actually is. A sterile woman's brain, is still incapable of regulating a prostate. I have no clue what you mean by 'brain as a whole', because I am not talking about some sort of brain pieces.

---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 03:37 AM ----------



Yes, in that very article is describes the sort of gender development there is at that age, as in "Children understand that gender is stable over time; however, they often think that changing physical appearance or activities can change them into the other sex." As in, at that age, a girl playing with trucks is not transgendered. As in the second line of your link, "Many people believe that sexual development does not become an important issue until puberty and adolescence. However, children begin showing sexual behavior and interest in their sexual functioning starting in infancy." In no way, even in the article you posted, does it say that children 4 or 5 can make a cognitive conclusion that there is something wrong with their gender.

except we're not talking about regulation of bodyparts. the differences go far deeper than that. You ARE talking about specific brain bits when you talk about regulation of bodyparts.

Discoveries by scientists over the past 10 years have elucidated biological sex differences in brain structure, chemistry and function. “These variations occur throughout the brain, in regions involved in language, memory, emotion, vision, hearing and navigation,” explains Larry Cahill, Ph.D., an associate professor in the Department of Neurobiology and Behavior at the University of California, Irvine.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0229171609.htm

[Laize]

Isn't the fact that they are getting a male test when they are female a judgment? A police officer is an official, who's actual job it is to make a judgment based on actual information. If there is semen left at a crime scene, shouldn't the officer know that the person they are questioning is capable of producing it?



If I ever have to spend a long period of time, I would go through hormone therapy to get out of big boy jail.



Nope, never said that. Try again...



Sex organs, not reproductive organs.



If you change a male brain to be more like a female brain, than it will function more like a female brain? What point exactly are you trying to make here? Does that mean that a male brain cannot function like a female brain unless it is changed? Interesting...



Because that's what everyone does and kids copy or mimic.



Really, because I have seen children raised by wolfs, that act like wolfs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxana_Malaya

Ok let me put it this way (Which may even change the tone of this thread).

Science is within (probably) a decade of being able to completely fabricate sex organs for SRS patients. Knowing this, would you still say transgender people should be sterilized? Even if they'd go this far (And they almost all would if this became a viable option).

[Linkedblade]

Ok let me put it this way (Which may even change the tone of this thread).

Science is within (probably) a decade of being able to completely fabricate sex organs for SRS patients. Knowing this, would you still say transgender people should be sterilized? Even if they'd go this far (And they almost all would if this became a viable option).

In order to go MtF or FtM, wouldn't all of the pre-surgery organs need to be removed? Isn't that what sterilization is??

In order to become as close to a woman as physically possible wouldn't you want to have all of your male genitalia removed? Isn't that sterilization? Am I wrong?

[starlord]

In order to go MtF or FtM, wouldn't all of the pre-surgery organs need to be removed? Isn't that what sterilization is??

yes, but not everyone can afford or is comfortable with such surgery. the main question is, whats the big difference between that & just taking hormone pills, for all intents & purposes? the only real difference is the shape of whats down below. so why should it be necessary?

[Sunseeker]

In order to go MtF or FtM, wouldn't all of the pre-surgery organs need to be removed? Isn't that what sterilization is??

In order to become as close to a woman as physically possible wouldn't you want to have all of your male genitalia removed? Isn't that sterilization? Am I wrong?

Sterilization usually comes in one of two forms, removal of the sexual organs, or chemical sterilization in which, as the name suggests, toxic chemicals are used to kill the reproductive parts.

This issue really isn't that they would be sterile after their procedure, it's the fact that the government is mandating it be done for "official" recognition of their new sex. Again, the point isn't that it would happen anyway, the point is that it's being mandated by the state. And given Laize's hypothetical, which I agree is a very real possibility in the near future, it's simply a ridiculous law that only serves to relegate transsexuals to "lesser" levels of human rights.

[Linkedblade]

Sterilization usually comes in one of two forms, removal of the sexual organs, or chemical sterilization in which, as the name suggests, toxic chemicals are used to kill the reproductive parts.

This issue really isn't that they would be sterile after their procedure, it's the fact that the government is mandating it be done for "official" recognition of their new sex. Again, the point isn't that it would happen anyway, the point is that it's being mandated by the state. And given Laize's hypothetical, which I agree is a very real possibility in the near future, it's simply a ridiculous law that only serves to relegate transsexuals to "lesser" levels of human rights.

Well I think it would be for the safety of the individual. If you want to be identified as a woman, then you shouldn't have male genitalia. And vice versa.

[Deleted]

Hadn't heard anything of this, I'm ashamed over my own country...

[Sunseeker]

Well I think it would be for the safety of the individual. If you want to be identified as a woman, then you shouldn't have male genitalia. And vice versa.

You've going to have to extrapolate on your claim that sterilization or mandated genital-alteration surgery is "for their saftey".

[Linkedblade]

You've going to have to extrapolate on your claim that sterilization or mandated genital-alteration surgery is "for their saftey".

I didn't read the actual law or bill that was written or passed. I would think that sterilization is the first part of the entire procedure to change your physical gender. I mean if you were to identify as a woman, than you wouldn't want a penis, testicles, or any other male genitalia. But I could be wrong? I'm not exactly a person in this situation, so I have no understanding of what it is like.

[starlord]

I didn't read the actual law or bill that was written or passed. I would think that sterilization is the first part of the entire procedure to change your physical gender. I mean if you were to identify as a woman, than you wouldn't want a penis, testicles, or any other male genitalia. But I could be wrong? I'm not exactly a person in this situation, so I have no understanding of what it is like.

its a subjective issue. but it should be up to the person to decide. all surgery carries risks.

[Sensei_Sin]

its a subjective issue. but it should be up to the person to decide. all surgery carries risks.

As well as expenses... Very large ones.