new paradigm, old habits

[Fernling306]

So if I say some classes are better in support than others, some classes are better in controlling than others it would sound strange in your ears?

Very good point. I knew that too, I am very tired haha.

[Jovanaar]

Very good point. I knew that too, I am very tired haha.

We all have days like that, no worries get some sleep!

[Vlad Morbius]

My experience in this type of scenario stems from my time in Asheron's Call where characters also had multiple weapon choices. It was something that each player had to become comfortable with in each different battle scenario. I remember switching between melee and range on the fly several times in one dungeon all based on the type of creature I was facing and what the group needs were. This is the beauty of the system, and yes I know many here have their doubts if they haven't played that style but let me tell you this, once you are comfortable doing so nothing else will ever be good enough.

It is also a matter of knowing the capacity and limits of each person/profession in your group and this comes with playing the content. To me the biggest bonus is that everybody in the group comes away with a terrific sense of accomplishment because the individual's performance matters and success does not usually come down to one role but a compilation of each player throwing a well timed heal, taking agro, switching damage etc.

[Maarius]

well I wouldn't say a class is better in control, support or damage, what I would say:

A certain class may have more options/more ways to do a certain aspect (control, support) but that doesn't mean that the class can do it better.



a little example here:

• the Guardian may have a lot of skills which apply the boon "Regeneration". He can cast 2 Regeneration-Skills one after another, but that doesn't mean that the target gets more heal out of it. The boon doesn't stack in power. Boons generally don't stack in power. It will only stack in duration.
• so let's take a look at the Warrior. He has also some supportskills, let's use the banner. It applies a regeneration-boon too. It heals with the same amount as the guardians boon. There are no stats that give boons more power as far as we know.
• the Ranger has the healing spring
• the Elementalist has several weaponskills that apply regeneration. Same here: even if he could spam them, they are not more powerful... they only stack in duration.
• ...

the only difference here is: how the boon is applied, every profession has different very profession-specific ways to do it. We can't even say that any class has no way to apply the regeneration boon since we haven't seen all the skills yet.

Each class will have

• 6-8 Healskills
• 20 Utility-Skills
• 6-8 Eliteskills
• Then there are Cross Profession Combos which will certainly have their fair share of regeneration-boons too,
• AND don't forget the traits

--> no Profession is better in healing others than the other. They all can support their friends in very different ways, but that doesn't mean that one is superior to the other.







an other example:

you have the situation: 100 little spiders swarm towards your group. You have to control them. Which profession can do it best?

• the Elementalist has, like any other profession, more ways to handle this: he can use his Static Field and daze the enemies, he can slow them with ice,...
• the Mesmer could use his chaos storm to apply different conditions, a lot of them make the enemy slower, the view that come through first can be taken out with concentrated fire. We don't know much about Mesmer-Skills though.
• the Guardian could use his Line of Warding
• the Warrior could use his Tremor Wave (Mace Offhand Skill) and his Stomp
• ...

so each of the Professions will get any sort of Controllskill. Again: we haven't seen all Skills yet, so there are much more to come. HOWEVER: most of the classes have ALREADY skills from each category.
In our example each of the players could equip at least one skill/weapon with a control-skill. They alternately stop the spiders, while one does this, the others AoE the spiders (again: every class has a sort of AoE, in the style of their profession)

so can you tell me who is the better profession in supporting? There may be classes with more than 1 control-skill, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't make them crucial for this situation. If you play with any kind of party, the party will have to analyse what the situation looks like and no one has to be excluded, because there are a hell lot of options to succeed. It doesn't really matter.






my conclusion: all of the classes can do support, control & damage. Some of the classes will have more ways to do things, but that doesn't mean that it's more powerful. It only means, that this profession has more ways in doing this specific thing. Guardians have more ways to be supportive, but their support-skills aren't more powerful than those of other professions.


This is how I understand what the developers told us.

[Umbra]

Warrior: control 20%, support 30%, damage 30%, mobility 20%
Thief: control 15%, support 5%, damage 50%, mobility 30%
Guardian: control 10%, support 50%, damage 20%, mobility 20%

The problem that arises when you turn it into a numbers game is that you need to have some reliable source of where you're getting your facts from. What is it, exactly, that makes the Thief 5% more controlling than the Guardian, a whooping 50% larger when it comes to relative percentages? What makes it 50% more mobile than a Warrior? What makes a Warrior twice the control-freak a Guardian is? You need to back this up from somewhere.

The goal that (I believe) ArenaNet have with the profession balance, in terms of a numbers game, is to have every profession be equally good at what they want to do, mathematically. In your system, that would be 25%'s across the board.

[Zeek Daniels]

I think its safe to say that if 5 of the same class is running the same build and non of them are willing to play different styles of the same class then the run will most likely fail. It wont take long for the group to figure out that high damage x5 is not always the best option and ppl will switch to more control or supportive roles.

[Deleted]

I'm really sure that you will be able to do a dungeon with 5 Thief only, 5 Elementalist only, 5 Engineers, Mesmers, Guardian and so on.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if people would continue with the old habits searching for specific professions only, like - "LF Sword/Shield Guardian, Water Elementalist, Minion Necromancer" <.<

[Maarius]

I think its safe to say that if 5 of the same class is running the same build and non of them are willing to play different styles of the same class then the run will most likely fail. It wont take long for the group to figure out that high damage x5 is not always the best option and ppl will switch to more control or supportive roles.

1.) Welcome to the forums

yes you are right, if everyone plays without using his control- or supportbuttons then the group is doomed. It's all about finding the according tactic to a specific situation. All of those 5 charakters will have options to equip a corresponding skill. That's the point. You don't depend on a specific profession, because all of them can do

• control
• support
• damage

in their own profession-specific style. That's GW2s strength, to play with your friends, doesn't matter which profession or which playstyle. Everyone in the group has all of those 3 skilltypes at hand. Mostly the first 5 skills are about damage (some of them damage + support/control), and the utility-skills are about support/controll (some of them damage too).

---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 06:28 PM ----------

Though it wouldn't surprise me if people would continue with the old habits searching for specific professions only, like - "LF Sword/Shield Guardian, Water Elementalist, Minion Necromancer" <.<

yeah, I wouldn't play with those kind of people, I don't need them anyway, it's much easier to find players here in this game. Best solution: go with the first 4 guys from your guild.

those guys will be laughed at, they will learn it the hard way since they don't care to get informed first

[Ruak]

1.) Welcome to the forums

yes you are right, if everyone plays without using his control- or supportbuttons then the group is doomed. It's all about finding the according tactic to a specific situation. All of those 5 charakters will have options to equip a corresponding skill. That's the point. You don't depend on a specific profession, because all of them can do

• control
• support
• damage

in their own profession-specific style. That's GW2s strength, to play with your friends, doesn't matter which profession or which playstyle. Everyone in the group has all of those 3 skilltypes at hand. Mostly the first 5 skills are about damage (some of them damage + support/control), and the utility-skills are about support/controll (some of them damage too).

That's not true. The devs themselves said that for example 5 warriors with the same weapons CAN complete a dungeon successfully. Too lazy to find a link but I can if you insist. Using different weapons/professions will just make it easier.

[Maarius]

That's not true. The devs themselves said that for example 5 warriors with the same weapons CAN complete a dungeon successfully. Too lazy to find a link but I can if you insist. Using different weapons/professions will just make it easier.

I didn't say otherwise. The weapon only defines the first 5 skills. The other 5 can easyly be support/controllskills

[tibben]

those are merely examples

im concerned that MMO players are so used to being pigeon holed into doing only one thing all the time they will not use things like weapon swapping to it full potential

in addition people will be reluctant to switch away from "their build" to accommodate the needs of the group and the game isnt rigid enough to screen those players out ith "lf support" chat spams since the game doesnt have full time roles like that

From my understanding, the bosses and mobs will target different players based on different criteria, meaning EVERYONE needs to be prepared to use some type of control/support abilities to succeed in explorable mode dungeons. If they aren't prepared to do that you should find other people that actually want to succeed and not just be carried to victory while spamming fireball because it's the only ability they think they'll ever need. If you want to succeed in the harder dungeons you will need to adapt your skills to the situation.

Anet has said any combination should be able to complete the dungeon, but I don't believe they meant any combination of selfish/ignorant players who have no idea how to use the other 9 abilities on their action bars + weapon swapping can succeed.

[Balfire]

Hmm, that is interesting. I thought this was one of the main things Anet wanted to avoid. I thought they were putting a ton of effort into making sure that every class/weapon is JUST as viable as any other in any group comp.

<Wobbley> One of the greatest changes Guild Wars 2 promises to bring to MMOs is to break the holy trinity of group roles. Would you dare say that this is true for any class/spec combination, or does it contain some modifications? An example would be; could 5 skilled Guardians using the same weapon and traits do a dungeon?

<[ANet]JonathanSharp> -Absolutely, they could do it with the same weapons and traits. If you changed out your weapons and traits, you'd have more diversity, and would make it easier on yourself.

This. Quote basically says for all you people who don't understand, yes everyone can play through a dungeon with whatever setup they like, but you are making it harder on yourself.

All classes/roles/weapon sets will be able to complete a dungeon, but there will always be a faster way, and the best way to play will be to adapt on the fly using all your weapons and skills to do each encounter a tactfully and as fast a possible. For me at least I will never be in a group with 5 thieves saying "I ONLY GO DAGGERS IM DPS HERP DERP" because they would be kicked instantly. If people try and only stick to one role they will not make it very far. Everyone carries a bigger weight of responsibility in this new set up and MUST learn to adapt.

[Glytch]

looks like people arent understanding the OP and are just rambling about the 5 dagger example i gave (which has very little to do with what im asking"

trust me, ive read up on all the info that has been released and listened to all the interviews out there, im not so dumb as to ask something as silly as "CAN FIVE THIEVES DO DUNGEONS????" the topis is much deeper than that its about players and their unwilliningness to change

[Ynna]

the topic is much deeper than that its about players and their unwillingness to change

If people don't change, they don't complete the harder content. So they can suck it up. It's up to the community to make sure everyone gets this. If people are being dicks in your group, start by calmly explaining things have changed. Otherwise, kick them from the group.

[Vlad Morbius]

looks like people arent understanding the OP and are just rambling about the 5 dagger example i gave (which has very little to do with what im asking"

trust me, ive read up on all the info that has been released and listened to all the interviews out there, im not so dumb as to ask something as silly as "CAN FIVE THIEVES DO DUNGEONS????" the topis is much deeper than that its about players and their unwilliningness to change

I completely understand your concern and it is a valid concern. A lot of players are of the new MMO generation and have no basic concepts of how this is supposed to play out and some just won't accept the change in dynamics but I truly believe for the most part once many of those same players begin to recognize the absolute freedom that comes with this they will be hard pressed not to want to adapt. It has to do with two very different MMO styles and there are many that don't want to adapt themselves to the game but instead try and force the game to adapt to their style or choice. We have to congratulate Anet for not caving in and hopefully it continues going forward.
That being said, if this comes to fruition in the manner they have described, they will have provided every player the option of fulfilling all roles to varying degrees which in itself provides a lot more flexibility when it comes to people grouping. There is not much more they can do beyond that and there will always be those who refuse to see the forest for the trees, unfortunately they are also usually the most vocal and the most uniformed.

[Koshun]

For some reason, I feel the very nature of WoW demands that players do not completely understand their class. I don't know why, but I have this odd feeling that in any other MMO (hell, any other genre!) people would be willing to take the time to learn the class and understand the importance of support/utility/etc.

[Vlad Morbius]

For some reason, I feel the very nature of WoW demands that players do not completely understand their class. I don't know why, but I have this odd feeling that in any other MMO (hell, any other genre!) people would be willing to take the time to learn the class and understand the importance of support/utility/etc.

Hence my comments on there being two very different MMO generations, those who have experienced other styles and those weaned on WoW. It isn't a shot at either group but having seen and experienced both sides of the coin does lend itself to a very different view of GW2 and the ability to adapt to multiple roles.

[Verazh]

so ive been thinking, even with the whole "getting rid of the holy trinity" theres still not going to be total freedom when it comes to playing what you want. lets be honest 5 thieves with dagger/dagger pistol/pistol isnt going to work for most dungeons on explorable so my question is how do you handle that

i mean the game isnt as rigid that you'll be able to spam LF support Ascalon crypts PST but i find it hard to believe that you'll be able to grab 5 people and be able to convince someone to change from their precious build into something that meshes well with the group. how do you even decide who has to? players are so used to running the same spec over and over and over (even in GW1 people ran the same generic build even when specialty builds were superior) that convincing many people to change their setup, even temporarily, will be an awkward social situation

EDIT: since people dont seem to understand this post im worried about the players of the game, not the game mechanics itself

I can understand your concern. Many a MMO player is so brainwashed by what they consider to be the only viable way to play that they cannot fathom change. Many people in general dont do well with change. But, lets hope for two things:
1) The game will attract players that really seek new ways of gaming and
2) The game (and general GW2 community) successfully changes the mindset of those that have a hard time coping with change, over time.

[Fencers]

For some reason, I feel the very nature of WoW demands that players do not completely understand their class. I don't know why, but I have this odd feeling that in any other MMO (hell, any other genre!) people would be willing to take the time to learn the class and understand the importance of support/utility/etc.

I don't know about "demands" but Blizzard certainly design so that one doesn't need to.

I do feel Warcraft is a expertly designed game and fun to a certain degree- but in my personal opinion, it is the easiest major game I have ever played in the genre. This is because Warcraft is broad.

[Merendel]

looks like people arent understanding the OP and are just rambling about the 5 dagger example i gave (which has very little to do with what im asking"

trust me, ive read up on all the info that has been released and listened to all the interviews out there, im not so dumb as to ask something as silly as "CAN FIVE THIEVES DO DUNGEONS????" the topis is much deeper than that its about players and their unwilliningness to change

I actually recall one interview where the dev specificly said they'd completed explore modes of some dungeons with a group comprised of all thieves as well as all elementalists. Any combination of professions should be able to complete any dungeon even explor mode based on what the devs have said. Now can 5 of any prof useing the exact same weapons/style beat them? probably not, not cause the profession is weak but because useing only 1 weapon drastically limits the options you have available to control and adapt. I'm sure a mixed group will be easier in most situations because of easier access to CC and buffs/debuffs but any group should be able to win if they use all the tools avalible to them properly. if folks ridgedly latch on to the idea of "I'm a dagger only thief and nothing else" or any other combo they are walking into fights with 1 hand tied behind their back anyway. If they cant win with that handycap they have only themselves to blaim.