Rogues PVP

[Stanton Biston]

I'm all up for rogues having the ability to reset the match get some CDs back and some health and come at it in another way. I just don't see how sitting there for 20 + mins not doing anything apart from hoping the other person will quit out of boredom is really is a valid tactic.

Then grab one of the giant purple crystals that gives imp. stealth detection. Stop being dumb.

[Afflictrick]

You a feral complaining about a rogue.. Mind = blown. You are basically our melee counter buddy. Definitely a L2P issue here, then again that should of been obvious the moment you seriously stated rogues have no DR.

[ophion1990]

Even in the worst case scenario its 6 sec KS, 2 sec cs and another 1 sec cs. This makes us waste our burst aswell unless we vanish 2x? :X

As for the DK fight, DR fades after a set amount of time and also he probably played blood, the rogue responds to the unkillable spec by playing like an jackass.

[Resentful]

Even in the worst case scenario its 6 sec KS, 2 sec cs and another 1 sec cs. This makes us waste our burst aswell unless we vanish 2x? :X

As for the DK fight, DR fades after a set amount of time and also he probably played blood, the rogue responds to the unkillable spec by playing like an jackass.

Hey It's the only way to kill those things <.< Shiv his Veng and well yeah do as you've stated :P

[Deleted]

Ferals > Rogues, not sure how you managed to pull that loss off ... :-/

[SYNTH3T1K]

I love these forums ^_^. You ask for balance but in all honestly Feral Druids were built to break us. Its all skill my friend and knowing your opponent. I'd suggest you research because honestly I've watched rogues get beat to a pulp before. Myself included. =[

[Icpie]

If you're a feral and complaining about rogues, then you're doing something(s) horribly wrong and have much to learn.

[Resentful]

I love these forums ^_^. You ask for balance but in all honestly Feral Druids were built to break us. Its all skill my friend and knowing your opponent. I'd suggest you research because honestly I've watched rogues get beat to a pulp before. Myself included. =[

Yeah It was amazing I was like hah I'll live don't worry, NOPE VIAL OF SHADOWS+CAT = Dead Rogue.

... Opps I just had a taste of my own medicine since I have a heroic vial myself and it was very very painful.

[Deleted]

It's not that they're weak atm either...

^^^^^^^^^^

[Lolretadin]

There are multiple types of stuns. Cheap Shot, for example, does not share a DR with Kidney Shot.

[Jaxxs]

There are multiple types of stuns. Cheap Shot, for example, does not share a DR with Kidney Shot.

Umm, yeah it does. It has for a while now. You guys really need to research stuff before you start complaining about things.

Btw OP LOLCYCLONE says hi if you're referring to things being overpowered. It's the only undispellable (other than trinket) CC in the game, and you can instant cast it when you're predatory swiftness procs (which happens a lot as feral). So please learn your class, and stop complaining about ones you know nothing about.

[Gandrake]

I was having a massive rage fit but my points are still valid

err

Ferals are probably the best solo melee in teh game with rogues giving them good competition, so I'd take just about anything from a raging feral with a grain of salt

hit bearform and mangle harder, drop some bleeds on kids and watch them die

[Takanami]

Problem with rogues is that they either dominate or get dominated. There is simply no middle ground. When it comes to pvp you have to learn not to rage. You win some, you lose some and pvp is never a fair fight no matter what you might think.

I play a lock, and as such, I reserve the right to rage against rogues more than any other class. Heck, I reserve the right to rage about any other class I see fit more than any other class simply because everyone knows how hinky our class has been throughout cata. However, the simple fact is, if you are running without a healer you are going to die and shouldn't complain about it. If you can't survive a full on stun lock you are going to die, and shouldn't complain about it.

Thing is, sometimes things go your way. Last night I ran up on a DK and War with my cds up. I outplayed them and killed them both. Then again, sometimes they just don't. Later, with my healthstone and trinket down I got hit by a rogue. He cycled his cooldowns properly and I never even got the chance to land a corruption on him. (almost 5k res even QQ) Then later, I ran up on a frost mage, hardly payed him any attention, he blew all his cds and tried so hard.. so hard. But with a full line of dots and ds with his low gear level he just fell over without taking 30% of my health.

Point is, paper rock scissors isn't supposed to be balanced. For the most part its all luck because certain comps just beat others better and certain classes just win over others. If you have a pocket healer you will probably beat the guy that don't. If you have 5,000 res you will probably beat the guy that has 3. It just boils down to gear>class>skill.

So if as a feral you are losing to rogues, you need more gear. :]

[Resentful]

There are multiple types of stuns. Cheap Shot, for example, does not share a DR with Kidney Shot.

It's always shared the DR for a VERY long time now. Why give false information?

[hazer221]

It's always shared the DR for a VERY long time now. Why give false information?

You're wrong, cheap shot is an "Opening stun" KS is a "Controlled stun".

Source: http://www.wowpedia.org/Diminishing_returns

[Epiphanes]

You a feral complaining about a rogue.. Mind = blown. You are basically our melee counter buddy. Definitely a L2P issue here, then again that should of been obvious the moment you seriously stated rogues have no DR.

With the current state of rogues with t1 legendaries and Vial of Shadows, Rogues > Ferals. It's pretty simple to determine that bleeds get outhealed by improved recuperate, so bleed kiting is being completely mitigated. Point is, rogue damage > feral damage. Period.

[Lygo]

Ferals are rogues 2.0. Regardless of what trinket and weapons the rogue may have in combat against a feral. The feral will always have the advantage. E.g Natures grasp, instant cyclones, bear form, self-healing ( Which I would consider more efficient than rogues recuperate), Why do you think FMP was flavour of the month? Why play with a rogue when you can do so much better with a feral druid? Immune to Polymorph's while in cat form? Shapeshift snares?

And for those who think CS and KS do not share DR, think again. Cheap Shot is a 3 second stun. Kidney shot alone with 5 CP's is 6 seconds. I assure you if you over-lap one another, opening with CS then Kidney shot. The stun timer adds up to 6 seconds in total. If you still disagree. Go look on the Cata patch notes. You will find that blizzard made Cheap shot and kidney shot share diminishing returns, trying to eliminate rogues utility.

On another note. If you're having trouble against rogues. Then all I could say is get better. Majority of the people who complain about how OP rogues are is usually he players that have no clue what to do against the class.

[Gandrake]

You're wrong, cheap shot is an "Opening stun" KS is a "Controlled stun".

Source: http://www.wowpedia.org/Diminishing_returns

ok if you know so much

why dont you get on your rogue, open with CS and drop a 5pt kidney? Because I can tell you that it sure as hell isn't going to last 6 seconds.

[Resentful]

ok if you know so much

why dont you get on your rogue, open with CS and drop a 5pt kidney? Because I can tell you that it sure as hell isn't going to last 6 seconds.

It's amazing how people have no clue on how Our class works. It really is, Like I wanted to flip tables reading his post.

[mea]

But, rogue DR does exist... And you as a feral (I too Feral PvP), should dominate rogues. But you don't. God knows why. Clone the shadowdance and it's game over.

Before they merged the CD on CloS and CR, rogues were perfectly capable of beating ferals, and ferals capable of beating rogues. However it required alot more from the rogue in terms of timing. Not sure how it is now, but they can't be that far behind. So no, while he should be able to (maybe) win most of the matches, he shouldn't dominate them if he's very good, and the rogues are too.

---------- Post added 2012-01-19 at 03:38 AM ----------

With the current state of rogues with t1 legendaries and Vial of Shadows, Rogues > Ferals. It's pretty simple to determine that bleeds get outhealed by improved recuperate, so bleed kiting is being completely mitigated. Point is, rogue damage > feral damage. Period.

Recup is 4% and with 150k that's 6k (7.2k with talents if i'm correct) every 3 secs. Rip and shred paired do not deal sub 2.4k dps even on 5k resil. It's beneficial to kite if shadowstep is on cooldown regardless, to throw up a few hots as long as you're safe he won't be able to (or won't beneficially prioritize) use shadowstep.

---------- Post added 2012-01-19 at 04:02 AM ----------

Problem with rogues is that they either dominate or get dominated. There is simply no middle ground. When it comes to pvp you have to learn not to rage. You win some, you lose some and pvp is never a fair fight no matter what you might think.

I play a lock, and as such, I reserve the right to rage against rogues more than any other class. Heck, I reserve the right to rage about any other class I see fit more than any other class simply because everyone knows how hinky our class has been throughout cata. However, the simple fact is, if you are running without a healer you are going to die and shouldn't complain about it. If you can't survive a full on stun lock you are going to die, and shouldn't complain about it.

Thing is, sometimes things go your way. Last night I ran up on a DK and War with my cds up. I outplayed them and killed them both. Then again, sometimes they just don't. Later, with my healthstone and trinket down I got hit by a rogue. He cycled his cooldowns properly and I never even got the chance to land a corruption on him. (almost 5k res even QQ) Then later, I ran up on a frost mage, hardly payed him any attention, he blew all his cds and tried so hard.. so hard. But with a full line of dots and ds with his low gear level he just fell over without taking 30% of my health.

Point is, paper rock scissors isn't supposed to be balanced. For the most part its all luck because certain comps just beat others better and certain classes just win over others. If you have a pocket healer you will probably beat the guy that don't. If you have 5,000 res you will probably beat the guy that has 3. It just boils down to gear>class>skill.

So if as a feral you are losing to rogues, you need more gear. :]

To be fair, if we're talking about players who really master their class, rogues have very few counters. Ferals aren't a direct counter either once you know how to handle them well enough. It is one of the toughest fights however.

I sympathize with you as a lock versus rogues, they should never under any circumstance lose to you with all cooldowns up. This goes for shadow priests, warriors, frost and undead dks, moonkins, ret palas, and both enhance and elemental shamans. There isn't anything you can do to win a rogue that plays near perfectly; if he doesn't mess up one bit, you won't win with any of these class/spec combination. You can be as good as the rogue, but it doesn't help.

Hunters, blood dks and frost mages can still beat rogues consistently. A rogue can choose to never die versus a blood dk and exit the fight when he feels like it even without long cooldowns, and a hunter will have a slim chance against a rogue with vial due to having to use cooldowns more frequently to prevent any damage instead of just shadowdance/full energy/trinket boosted damage, as the proc alone can result in a rushdown before the hunter can exhaust all the rogues cooldowns.

I play a rogue, and have for 4 years. I still lose 1 vs 1, although very rarely if both of us have all cooldowns. When i do, most of the time i see what i did wrong, and know what i should have used to guarantee a win regardless of the other player did. There's a high 'skill cap' (god i hate that term) to subtetly rogues, but once you get close to it, you won't find yourself losing much at all.

If you want a good chance at beating a feral, don't save clos for a clos vanish. You should rather use vanish directly after opening with ambush for another damage opener, or at the end of garrote (prevents faerie fire) or cheap shot. This will land you high opening pressure and prevent the feral from reaching a double 5 cp combo, as in rip and a ready cyclone for your defensive cooldowns. It'll also force him to choose between going defensive, or offensive instead of bleeding you up and going bear before frenzied regen, as with rogues' current damage even if he pops survival instinct, he won't be safe in cat after an opener including 1 garrote, 4 ambushes, and a kidney shot's duration of vial/autoattack damage. Admittedly though, you need to be good at anticipating his nature's grasp with a gouge or shadowstep --> CS --> garrote combo to keep pressure up. The same goes for cyclone, and both of these have their own indication through activation or proc. If the feral manages to get range and heal up with faerie fire on you, chasing isn't generally a good idea if cooldowns are blown. If you have the hemo dot up, a shadowstep feral charge or sprint will counter his original control. You can also prioritize Clos over CR in this situation to land another opener, with a second shadow dance.

If you play a rogue, try using an offensive ambush opener to negate the definite feral win that is a double 5 cp finish combo during the start of the fight.

Anyway, i guess this wasn't as coherent as i'd like it to be, i'm tired and going to bed in a minute. It isn't meant to teach you how to play your class, but unless ferals have scaled way beyond rogues since clos/CR, they are in no way hard counters to rogues. Just very difficult to beat.

edit: i somehow typed 'rogues' instead of 'goes' in a sentence. the rogues are in my mind!

---------- Post added 2012-01-19 at 04:23 AM ----------

OP is completely wrong about everything. Further posts by OP have increased his wrongmagnitude.

Rogue CC:

STUN DR:
1- Cheap Shot. This is a 4 second stun. Useable when stealthed or shadowdance. It shares DR with every stun except Charge (meaning, it shares DR with itself, it shares DR with hammer of justice, and the frost mage stun, and the unholy pet stun, and kidney shot, etc.) Feral druids have pounce as a rough equivalent.
2- Kidney Shot. This is 1+CP seconds of stun: up to 6. It shares DR with Cheap Shot, and all the other stuns. This is a finisher, consuming combo points. A combat rogue can actually make this longer, but you never fought one of those, so whatever.

DISORIENT CC:
3- Gouge. This high energy melee range move is normally front-only, but a glyph most players don't have lets it be done from behind. This is 4 seconds, or 6 for a combat rogue. This move delivers a combo point and costs 45 energy, so it is a rather large investment. Additionally, any damage at all breaks it immediately. Sub rogues can talent it such that it doesn't break on sub bleeds, which are trivial damage- this talent really allows rogues to glyph hemo at all.
4- Sap. You have to be out of combat to be sapped. This is 8 seconds.
NOTE: Disorient CCs share DR with polymorph, hex, etc.

Fear CC:
5- Blind. This long cooldown CC makes you wander in tight circles for 8 seconds. Any damage will break it. A glyph allows blind to erase dots when put on a target such that it doesn't break immediately.
NOTE: All fears on on this CC.



Rogues are fully effected by DR. Rogues have no tricks around that. You are just ranting because you hate rogues and don't even remotely understand what is happening to you, so you believe it is a class problem.

Good explanation. I wouldn't say Gouge is a large investment, however. You end up at approximately the same energy level as when you used it when it's not on the dr.