Turning off the "5% buff" is not an option...

[Christan]

the OP mentioned 'turn the buff off' isn't an option, but he mentioned one of the lesser reasons.

you have to satisfy the 9 / 24 other people in your raid, if even 7 of them want to use the buff, guess what, why keep them angry, it isn't an option because in casual guilds only 1-3 members would care about doing it with the buff off, the other people will just want the loots that take 5*x% less effort.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Do you really think Blizzard doesn't have the kind of detailed metrics that tell them the exact story regarding how people are progressing, which guilds are raiding else or which guilds have taken breaks? It's all right there in their databases. All they have to do is pull the data and do some number crunching.

Why would I think that? Of course they track it, they themselves said they look at the progress and nerf content if certain number of people have not progressed a certain amount by certain time. They do this because they need to artificially push the people through the content so that they're ready to buy the next expansion on schedule. What I'm saying is that given normal modes and LFR they should just leave heroic modes alone, let it be the pinnacle of raiding where you either raise up to the required level or you don't beat the boss -- and if you don't beat it, it doesn't matter since it's an optional mode designed purely for challenge.

That's entirely the point. Nobody around here knows if they're beating content "as it was intended". It seems quite reasonable that if people aren't progressing at the pace Blizzard wants them to, then people are not beating the content as it was intended. They're working on content that is -harder- than Blizzard wanted it to be.

It was tuned a certain way when released. And this is not about fixing tuning issues, it's about pushing people through the content on a set schedule no matter what, in this case with a progressive buff.

The recruitment thing is a vapor argument. Guilds who are good enough to be ranked or claim server firsts will continue to be capable of doing with the buff. Those guilds will still be able to attact the kinds of players they want. I'm sure there will be some players who want to join only guilds who cleared content before the buff, but I doubt that's a significant number of players.

If you think it's a vapor argument, you have never had to deal with recruitment in an end-game guild. Or you're on a dead-end server with one decent guild with no competition. In the majority of cases your guild is not the only option for recruits, they will have maybe a handful of possible choices. If you refuse to take the buff and the other guilds do, they will beat you in progress. And it's nothing to do with server firsts, there are many guilds far lower on the ladder that are competing against each other for recruits, even below the server top 10.

[Deleted]

most important question is : can you put it back after disabling it ?
example :
- remove the 5% debuff for farmed content (so you can still enjoy the fight as it was designed)
- put it back for progression content when you "need" it because you didn't kill it yet.

Anyone has any info regarding the possibility to reactivate it after desactivation ?

[Lord Blackmore]

What I'm saying is that given normal modes and LFR they should just leave heroic modes alone, let it be the pinnacle of raiding where you either raise up to the required level or you don't beat the boss -- and if you don't beat it, it doesn't matter since it's an optional mode designed purely for challenge.

I can't disagree that. And I'm someone who won't ever do heroic modes.

If you think it's a vapor argument, you have never had to deal with recruitment in an end-game guild. Or you're on a dead-end server with one decent guild with no competition. In the majority of cases your guild is not the only option for recruits, they will have maybe a handful of possible choices. If you refuse to take the buff and the other guilds do, they will beat you in progress. And it's nothing to do with server firsts, there are many guilds far lower on the ladder that are competing against each other for recruits, even below the server top 10.

I'm pretty sure we're not talking about the same thing.

I think you're talking about the difficulty in recruiting for guilds who don't want to use the buff vs. ones that are going to use the buff to remain competitive. I think you're probably correct on that point.

What I was talking about is guilds who plan to use the buff competing for recruits. In that case, since all competitive guilds will use the buff, it becomes effectively a non issue.

[Deleted]

How can you complain about getting more options in a video game?

None of the nerfs/options/buffs have ANY impact on the guilds competing.

If you dont want the buff, then turn it off. If you want the buff, let i be.

[brirrspliff]

This is the exact reason why the buff is coming. After all this time, they still haven't downed the bosses. They're pushing hard to do it, but they can't. They need that help, from both a game-mechanics point of view, but also a morality boost. And I'm just talking about the competetive guilds here!

this is wrong. there are a lot of guilds out there who raid only 1 or 2 days per week. it's a matter of time. just look at the playtime of KIN, paragon and the likes. it's more than freaky. they play 40 hours and more per week. that's the amount of time i am working my "real" job.

you just can't compare players like you tried to. it's does not make sense.

[Deleted]

Eveybody should think twice before posting something like that.

Everybody that raids are a part of a raid team either 10-man either 25-man . In this Thread the only think that i'm reading is selfish quotes like everybody talks as they are a grp but they forgor that are simply 1 guy posting and always refering as many ** . The only quotes that i'm reading is (about him, about him ) or (Guilds don't want , Guild don't want ). Its kinda simply only quotes that are create some argue between ppls. Some of guys think that this game is an solo rpg game without anyone=Biggest Mystake.

[Sesshou]

How can you complain about getting more options in a video game?

None of the nerfs/options/buffs have ANY impact on the guilds competing.

If you dont want the buff, then turn it off. If you want the buff, let i be.

Except its not a viable option. Even if some one wanted to turn the buff off, this isn't a single player game, I guarantee you not all of the other 24 people are going to feel that way. If you aren't in one of those top 100 guilds, not everyone raids for the same reasons and you generally have to accept that to get the people you need to do content. Also, the world top guilds competition is over, I agree, however many guilds compete with others on their server (and some servers even don't have a server first yet). My guild isn't trying to compete with paragon or blood legion... thats like taking those guys you hang out with and play basketball with to compete against an NBA team, its a completely different level of play. To anyone still competing for server ranking or whatever, having an uneven playing field is not a viable option (also theres recruitment issues because the first thing anyone looking for a hm raiding guild checks is the #/8 HM in the title or raid times).

Also more time is not the same as more gear or more skill. On a lot of fights (such as hm rag), the difference isn't the one or two items that finally dropped for your guild this week, its getting every single player to execute the strat perfectly at the same time. If a top guild needs 300 attempts to kill a boss, (assuming some other guild could do it in the same number which is unlikely if it wasn't nerfed) 300 attempts for a 3 day a week guild is month at 25 wipes a night assuming they do not reclear old content. But then you also need to allow more time to get to that big encounter because, hey, they still only raided 3 days a week to get there.

[Soxoffender]

Summary so far:

You don't have to use the buff it if you don't like using it.
"That's not an option everyone will be using it and we like to keep a competitive rank."
But if everyone will use it, then you can use it and remain competitive too."
"But we like the challenge of the fights!"
Then clear the content without the buff after you're done competing for your rank.

Everything solved?

It's not quite the same unfortunately. Gearing up to help you get last few percent is one thing but going back months later with heroic Deathwing weapons and Spine trinkets is a bit different.

There's no perfect solution. Heroic raiders are just going to have to compromise somewhere and accept that Blizzard have decided the race for server 4th is less important to them than some magical overall-completion percentage.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Saying that the "5% to xx%" buff is not optional is like saying that "not raiding an extra few hours a week, or an extra day a week is not an option" or that "not getting full epic gems is not an option" or that "not buying better crafted DS gear is not an option either".

It's not. One of those things nobody will actually do. Can you guess which it is?

[Veroly]

not turning off the buff to keep a competitive rank yet cant kill anything past Yor on heroic i lol'd what are you competing against the special olympics.

Infracted.

[Darkelementz]

Since when has raiding been about killing bosses slower than you could if you had a buff? It is like doing heroic bosses without buffs like fort, kings, and might. Sure you can do it and people would think you're stupid for it, but why would you want to make it that hard aside from bragging like a child?

[Brett Skullcrack]

You have the option to take it, if competitiveness is your main goal. ...

I don't know what you're on about. My point was that nobody skipped using the buff in ICC and nobody will do it now. The other things you listed are things that many guilds actually do. Therefore one can conclude that the "choice" of using the 5% buff is somehow fundamentally different.

The main difference is this: Disabling the buff gives you nothing tangible, but puts you at a great disadvantage. If a guild chooses to raid only 3 days, the players get more days off to do other things, if the guild chooses to not use gold on gems/crafted items they will use it elsewhere (like tank gear or handing it to the players instead).

To make it an actual choice, Blizzard could for example make it a one time thing: It's off by default, but you can permanently turn it on. But once it's turned on you cannot get any achievements. Combine that with wowprogress awarding more progress points for those achievements and now you suddenly have a choice of whether you want to just kill stuff or you want to remain competitive.

[Brett Skullcrack]

But you're talking about discussion points which have been discussed pages ago. We're talking about the WHY behind people not taking the buff, which as I pointed out irrational behaviour.

There is nothing irrational about it, you can trivially derive it from elementary game theory if you want.

---------- Post added 2012-01-23 at 10:28 PM ----------

If you think rationally about it there are already tons and tons of raidguilds who are trying to be competitive but who are willingly crippling themselves in that goal with low raidhours, low raiddays and low motivation on pumping effort into maximizing gear and stats of the raid.

As I said, the sometimes 200-300% (or higher!) difference in weekly raidhours between guilds who are trying to be competitive with eachoter makes the 5% buff neglectable to have an influence on their "competitivity".

That is a fundamentally different choice. How many hours you raid, and whether you extend or not are core defining factors of a guild. You will obviously compete with guilds that raid the same amount as you. If you choose to raid 3 nights per week you won't be competing with other guilds that raid 5+ nights (assuming similar skill levels), you will be competing with other 3-day guilds.

Thus the WHY answer given: "because they want to remain competitive" has been disproven or rather proven irrational. It's not an argument that can be made when a majority of raidguilds already willingly not make certain choices to give them an edge compared to other guilds.

It hasn't been "disproven" in any way. There are two types of choice: those that have a reasonable tradeoff (e.g., number of raid hours) and those that are just plain stupidity (e.g., not spending your guild's gold intelligently or turning off the buff).

[Stede]

I seriously dont get what all this fuss is about... Its apparent that your not as good to ever kill that boss (well maybe the 1% guys can get a lucky proc). So why do ppl whine so much about it. If you killed it hats down. If not well... obviously you need help.

With holidays biting a good 2 weeks of a lot of guilds' raiding schedules, it's not so obvious that they need help. A bit more time would probably do the trick for a good bit of them. If this buff was coming at the end of February, the QQ wouldn't be half as bad.

I don't mind it, but I would've rather seen it wait another month. And let's be real; nobody will be turning it off. There's no precedent and no reason. Folks are far more likely to get trolled in trade chat for living in your mom's basement if they post a post-nerf screenshot of a boss-kill with the buff turned off than they are to be congrtaulated on staying true to the tenets of special-snowflakism.

[Deleted]

Rank matters for recruiting purposes. I'm surprised this argument rarely comes up.

thank you for restoring my faith in humanity
browsing through 10pages with fingers crossed, please please SOMEONE must have the brain, it cant be just baboons here

so yes, its all about the recruiting. you always lose players and you have to replace them by recruiting.
and what a raider is checking 1st is your progress. no not your ranking. your progress.

you say no to a helping buff which others will use and you will get no/worse recruits due to falling behind of other guilds

[Deleted]

Those who truly want a challenge will turn it off, those who don't are wannabe hardcores who only care about other peoples gear and not about challenge.

It was the same in ICC, some guild down LK in blues while most people bitched about the buff.


You guys are wannabe elitists that do not look for a challenge but rather want to be special.

[Johnmatrix]

5% nerf to damage and health is laughably low.

Start the qq when we reach 10-15% and more, if we ever reach them.

[announced]

gonna say it is an option.. but most really dont care whether they have the buff or not since heroic madness has already been beat to death... same with all other heroic modes.. and normals are on farm for the 90% of the other guilds.

[Deleted]

5% is not a big thing, however it will be when they decide to increase it to 20% in February and 35% in March. I will not be that surprised.

But other thing is a major issue for me. I find it extremmely rude to nerf content like that 8 weeks after release having Christmas in middle. How many weeks is ithat, 5 or 6 for heroic raiding and Blizzard already tell us we hit the wall, have trouble to kill boss so they are forced to nerf. Seriously? You want us to kill heroic boss each week? There are thousands of guild that raid 3 days a week, even less, slowly each at own speed. Nobody need a push yet. Give us time at least 3 months, then nerf, not after 6 weeks !!!