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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Then, to be perfectly honest, "you're doing it wrong."[...]
    Or maybe you are.
    Or maaaaybe different people have different motivations for playing games? Madness, I know!

    There is a difference, but that difference doesn't necessarily mean anything to any given person, nor should it.

    I know analogies are always picked apart, but the HM vs. LFR one often feels to me like discussing travel. Let's say two groups of people decide to see the top 10 touristy national parks in the US during 2012. Group A makes it a roadtrip. Group B blows a bunch of cash to fly as much of it as possible, only driving the minimum distance (and then with a rented car).

    Group A takes a month and a half to see all of them. Group B takes 3 weeks.

    Which group is "doing it wrong"?

    The answer, unless you're being intentionally obtuse, is "neither". The roadtrip has additional value, but does it outweigh alternative ways to spend those additional three weeks? For some it does, for some it does not. This is perfectly fine.

    I know it's currently a futile fight, but it would be really nice if gamers as a group could stop trash-talking the playstyles of other gamers.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by keese View Post
    No. Think of it this way. Two guys have gym memberships and pay $15 a month. One guy goes 4 times a week for 2-3 hours and sees a noticeable improvement over time in his physical health and his sexy bod. The second guy goes once a week if he's lucky because he has a job, a wife, and two young kids. As a result, he doesn't have bulging biceps or rock hard abs but isn't unhealthy or overweight. Seems fair to me, they both are healthy as a result of their $15 a month but the guy who puts more time in is going to get more out of it.

    Except this is a world where you need 25 people for you to work out. No matter how many times you show up every day, working as hard as you can, you will never get buff without 24 other people.

    The main barrier for raiding, for me, isn't total time, but scheduled time. My hours are completely irregular. I can never be guaranteed more than a week in advance to be able to be available at ANY given time.

    This is why I'd rather have harder 5 mans than have nerfed heroic raids. I won't do the heroic raids anyways. I can't raid with a guild, no matter how much time I put in. I still play WoW like 6+ hours a day a lot of the time. I work hard. But I can't do it without a large amount of other people. I actually liked heroics at the beginning of cata, they weren't like horribly back-breakingly hard or anything, but I felt like I actually had to pay attention and had to manage mana and cds and stuff as a healer. It was GREAT to see people who don't pay attention and can't be assed to even remotely play well get smushed by bosses. I had a lot of fun, it wasn't too hard, but you had to pay attention to mechanics. It was just right for me. As someone who can not do an organized activity with other people due to schedule constaints, I too believe that nerfing hard modes is the wrong decision. People who can't raid due to time constraints will still not raid heroic content.

    More accessible content is 5 mans instead of raids. I'd rather have good 5 mans. The new 5 mans can be done blindfolded and are not appropriately tuned to the amount of gear you need to get into them. The new 5 mans in MoP that are "WOTLK difficulty" will bore me to sleep. LFR is a direct spit in my face. It's even easier than the 5 mans. Raids should not be easier than 5 mans. That's disgusting. I want to need to pay attention. I have done LFR at least 3 times as a healer now and I still have no idea what the mechanics on deathwing are, because I don't need to pay attention at all, I just spam heals on people who lose health and jump the platform when other people do. It's boring. That's why I stopped doing it.


    TL;DR version:

    Time and effort are not the only factors barring people from raiding. You can not just decide "I'm gonna work really hard!" and suddenly be in a hardcore raiding guild. Even if your schedule is too inconsistent to raid, you may be someone who wants to work hard and spends many hours a week playing WoW. Therefore, we need better content that doesn't take as many players, such as solo content and 5 mans. This will get even worse in Mists. I have no interest in being in a raiding guild because I would let them down all the time with my attendance, but I'm not retarded. I want content that I can't sleep through while autofollowing a dps and pressing healing wave.

  3. #323
    The Cata 5 mans certainly cannot be "done blindfolded" when you first go in them. They are entirely appropriate for the gear level you have then and even somewhat overtuned. The heroic versions were completely overtuned when first encountered and caused many people to give up and even leave the game. The ones in MoP sound like they will be just about right to me. You also don't "need" 24 other people to raid. You actually only need 9 and since the 10 man raids are actually harder than the 25's, you should go that route.
    Last edited by Dch48; 2012-01-26 at 11:52 PM.
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  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Dch48 View Post
    The Cata 5 mans certainly cannot be "done blindfolded" when you first go in them. They are entirely appropriate for the gear level you have then and even somewhat overtuned. The heroic versions were completely overtuned when first encountered and caused many people to give up and even leave the game. The ones in MoP sound like they will be just about right to me. You also don't "need" 24 other people to raid. You actually only need 9 and since the 10 man raids are actually harder than the 25's, you should go that route.
    The new Hour of Twilight ones can totally be done blindfolded and when I said "new" those were the ones I was referring to. The original cata heroics were not even remotely overtuned and could be done by anyone if they followed simple directions. They were just attempted by people who had spent OVER A YEAR in full ICC+ gear doing content that was intended for people in worse gear than Naxx 10 gear and who had gotten used to feeling completely invincible. They actually sandwiched the perfect point between "do it right and you live, do it wrong and you die" with simple mechanics that anyone with a functioning brain can understand. If you say a casual player can not learn to do those heroics (back then with appropriate gear) you are seriously insulting them and calling them retarded, in my opinion. "Get out of the blue splashy stuff" should not be something that we consider too "advanced" for the playerbase, that's just really, really insulting.

    Also I've been a raider in the past when I had more scheduled time. At the moment, it doesn't matter if it was 1 other person, 4 other people, 9 other people, or 24 other people, there are 0 people who can rely on me to be there at any scheduled time. That being said, I liked the original cata heroics because they were appropriate difficulty for unorganized groups. I completed them all with no help from guild or friends during the first week I was 85, which was when they were current content, completely using LFD. It was fine.
    Last edited by neccowafer; 2012-01-27 at 12:00 AM.

  5. #325
    Okay, but I think the new 5 mans are fine. I actually have only done one of them though. I stand by my statement that the original heroics were too hard though as well as even the normal mode of the first raids.
    Desktop ------------------------------- Laptop- Asus ROG Zephyrus G14
    AMD Ryzen 5 5600X CPU ---------------AMD Ryzen 9 6900HS with Radeon 680M graphics
    AMD RX 6600XT GPU -------------------AMD Radeon RX 6800S discrete graphics
    16 GB DDR4-3200 RAM ----------------16 GB DDR5-4800 RAM
    1 TB WD Black SN770 NVMe SSD ------1 TB WD Black SN850 NVMe SSD

  6. #326
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zotan View Post
    Bolding the parts you want to reply to and taking them out of context eh?

    1. You don't speak for "most of us" (whoever that is), and watching videos is but one part of what goes on. Being aware of the world first race is example enough)
    2. a) This doesn't make any sense. If you see all the content at a lower difficulty setting, it is no longer difficult content.
    b) You already see all the content. This is what "normal mode" and "LFR" is for. You may of heard of these features. You probably also argued that they were fine "because the hardcores get their heroic mode" well guess what, now they're losing that too. But wah wah wah I'm a paying customer I deserve everything under the sun we get it.
    3. It doesn't require large amounts of time. I know many guilds and players who commit 2-3 nights a week at most to raiding and do fine. This is you assuming everyone who raids heroics spends 5 hours going at it every night. "A quick push of a button should be all that is needed"? Guess what else this describes...
    1. I do indeed speak for the average player, there is less fun in watching somebody play a game than there is in playing it yourself, that much is rather obvious.
    2. You don't understand what the thread is getting at. The OP also implies he is against LFR by saying that $15 a month does not give you entitlement to see a raid.
    b) Unless you are at 8/8 Heroic mode, this will actually help you progress through the bosses. You are not losing Heroic mode, there is also an option to turn the buff off if you wish to clear the bosses at the same difficulty that they were at before.
    3) Actually 3 nights a week is a heck of a lot of time compared to what many players have.

    Also, I never took anything out of context, and quite frankly the attitude that players who do not have a consistent play schedule should not be able to play the more interesting parts of the game is disgusting.

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