The dumbest/worst argument in the history of MMORPGS.

[Kenasan]

It has nothing to do with people seeing the content. It's about progression and letting more guilds progress. Blizzard has a percentage of guilds in mind that they would like to see making progress and not enough people are doing it so they will nerf it to help those guilds. It's really that simple.

[Seegtease]

And yes, tyranny of majority. Real life example: germans and jews. Germans were majoritary and didn't like the jews so they voted to put them in special districts (at start). The majority voted for that and the jews weren't happy. And the jews were put in special camps. If you find this democratic... you are not the one understanding how democracy should work, it's a true example of tyranny of majority, just like taking away the challange from raiding is a

No, your idea of democracy is a representative democracy. The people vote for their leaders, and the leaders act in the best interest of all the people. It's a type of democracy, but not a pure democracy.

A pure democracy would be just that - majority votes, and the plan goes. There would be no leaders - just votes and a kind of trust that people follow the rules. I can't think of any pure democracies though, most/all democratic governments just use elements of it. People tend to want leadership. Also, your example is terrible because you're forgetting that the Germans had a leader in that time, and if it were not for that leader, I assure you, there would be no majority vote against the Jews.

I'm not saying tyranny of majority can't happen. In fact, I know it WOULD happen in a pure Democracy, which is probably why nobody uses a pure democracy.

[tacoloco]

What threshold is acceptable? What actions are acceptable if that threshold isn't met? Even with buffs/nerfs the majority will not complete 8/8 HC.

There is no threshold. HC content should be a big assed roadblock that only the best of the best will be able to progress in. Again, I am not one of those players, so I'm looking at it from a more or less objective point of view.

Blizzard's argument has always been that we don't want to create content that only a fraction of the players see. Having super hard HC content doesn't violate that, since it's the same raid as in other modes, with obviously some changed mechanics (I assume) and harder hitting/more health bosses. Everyone gets to see all of the content, but only the best players get to finish HC content.

FWIW, I know that's not the way Blizzard sees it nor is it the way Blizzard will handle it. It's just my pie in the sky idea of how it should be.

[Rivellana]

No, your idea of democracy is a representative democracy. The people vote for their leaders, and the leaders act in the best interest of all the people. It's a type of democracy, but not a pure democracy.

A pure democracy would be just that - majority votes, and the plan goes. There would be no leaders - just votes and a kind of trust that people follow the rules. I can't think of any pure democracies though, most/all democratic governments just use elements of it. People tend to want leadership. Also, your example is terrible because you're forgetting that the Germans had a leader in that time, and if it were not for that leader, I assure you, there would be no majority vote against the Jews.

I'm not saying tyranny of majority can't happen. In fact, I know it WOULD happen in a pure Democracy, which is probably why nobody uses a pure democracy.

Please stay on topic.

[Bashkar]

I do agree that this policy is stupid and is ruining this game.

Nothing stops people from seeing content

Having a busy life does. Not everyone can dedicate to raid nights.

People don't want to pay $15 a month so that they can see content six months from now when it's irrelevant to character development. Sorry, but guess what? It's a video game. I pay to play, and I play to enjoy myself. In the timeframe that I have to play, I'd like to actually be able to enjoy the game I'm paying for, not sit in Stormwind wishing I could play with all the cool kids.

[Dexiefy]

So... the like 10% of the playerbase that's hardcore lost?


WOW! A company that caters to the majority of people! It's like, a democracy or something here!

you are talking like democracy is some kind of good political system... It gives alot of freedom to avarage person but it also assumes that there are more intelligent people than there are avarage guys who can think by thmselves from time to time or total morons, not mentioning that 1 vote of guy with 170iq is worth as much as vote of 1 moron with iq of 85...

On the topic tough. You buy any game, if you are shit you dont complete it, do you run to the company to give you your money back because you are simply bad?
No you dont (and if you ever manage to get your money back for such reason let me know so i can get my money back for most of games that are being released past few years that dont show any challange even on hardest difficulty and therefore arent fun at all), therefore any argument that you should get as much as every1 else just because you pay is only proving how low your iq is.
You pay, you play, how much you achieve depends on YOU and nobody else. Nerfs to raids etc destroy the game for people who play on higher level than you.

Besides i tought that LFR was made so that baddies can feel special and can see the end of the story. Isnt nerfing normal mode kind of contradicting that design? Ah right... gc is still lead designer...

[vinnyboombat]

Shhhh, you'll hurt the special snowflakes' feelings.

By special Snowflakes, you mean the 1% hard mode raiders living in their mom's basements... right?

[melodramocracy]

Having a busy life does. Not everyone can dedicate to raid nights.

People don't want to pay $15 a month so that they can see content six months from now when it's irrelevant to character development. Sorry, but guess what? It's a video game. I pay to play, and I play to enjoy myself. In the timeframe that I have to play, I'd like to actually be able to enjoy the game I'm paying for, not sit in Stormwind wishing I could play with all the cool kids.

And that's why the LFR exists.

[gamingmuscle]

There is no threshold. HC content should be a big assed roadblock that only the best of the best will be able to progress in. Again, I am not one of those players, so I'm looking at it from a more or less objective point of view.

That would still be a threshold. And again who are the best of the best? How do you measure the success. I don't know if you are purposely being vague or you just haven't thought it out yet.

Blizzard's argument has always been that we don't want to create content that only a fraction of the players see. Having super hard HC content doesn't violate that, since it's the same raid as in other modes, with obviously some changed mechanics (I assume) and harder hitting/more health bosses. Everyone gets to see all of the content, but only the best players get to finish HC content.

This isn't about content. Its about progress. IE who is the best of the best. Blizzard sets a threshold, you want them to be okay with missing the threshold if they OVER tune it. IE if they fail at their goals, to just let it go and not fix it.

[bufferunderrun]

In bold for you. This argument has done more to destroy the culture of mmorpgs than any lack luster content patch ever has (IMO). Incredible, there is no faster way to kill a game than to give everything away. It's hard to believe the "I pay 15$ a month! I want to "see" everthing!" argument has officially won.

Actually the argument that as won is "I pay 15$ a month! I want to "defeat" everthing!"; this as become a form of pay to win, just like a real money weapon/armor shop.

[Shekita]

In bold for you. This argument has done more to destroy the culture of mmorpgs than any lack luster content patch ever has (IMO). Incredible, there is no faster way to kill a game than to give everything away. It's hard to believe the "I pay 15$ a month! I want to "see" everthing!" argument has officially won.

As it should. Blizzard is catering to the MAJORITY...as they should.

A lot of people that play WoW....contrary to popular stereotypes...do have a life outside of the game. They have relationships, family, kids, school, jobs, and a social life. God forbid they make it so it no longer takes 40 hours a week in-game to accomplish something, on top of the 40 hours work/school week and spending time with the significant other and friends outside of the game.

I can honestly say I've NEVER heard the "I pay 15 bucks, I should be able to see EVERYTHING argument" actually said by ANYONE except for BLIZZARD themselves...so not sure how that's a user argument....but I digress.

The argument ~I~ see from players is "I pay my 15 bucks like everyone else" which means, I should be able to play this game however I want to....and...that's a correct statement. It's your 15 bucks, play the game however you want to play it [or don't, whatever.].

BLIZZARD is the one that wanted everyone to experience the game because you know what sucks? Spending months sometimes YEARS on developing new content...just to have less than 10% of the playerbase actually see it....as a developer...THAT SUCKS!

IF I spent a damn year working on a raid...I want as many of the MILLIONS of players playing the game to experience it as possible. I don't want only the people that have no life outside of the game to see it, that's just lame

So yeah, the argument you're bitching and moaning about, is one BLIZZARD has made time and time again, not the users.

PS: Bragging about being good in WoW is like bragging about being good at beer bong. Though amusing, nobody gives a shit.

[Luko]

Schedule preventing them from normal raiding times, off the top of my head.

And what about nerfed changes are allowing them to play now opposed to their situation before?

[tacoloco]

[QUOTE=gamingmuscle;15134886]

This isn't about content. Its about progress. IE who is the best of the best. Blizzard sets a threshold, you want them to be okay with missing the threshold if they OVER tune it. IE if they fail at their goals, to just let it go and not fix it.

Blanket nerfs to HC content is not the way to fix ovetuning. Not every boss in a raid instance is overtuned. The correct way to fix this is to address the specific issues with specific bosses. Nerfing every boss by some arbitrary amount is what really gets people pissed off.

As far as threshold goes, whatever Blizzard decides should be a very low percentage.

[Necrolepsy]

So... the like 10% of the playerbase that's hardcore lost?


WOW! A company that caters to the majority of people! It's like, a democracy or something here!

How's that catering to casuals going as a business strategy
Oh-wait SUBLOSS derp

[salamala]

raiding should be hard. and i don't mean for 2 months out of the entire year.

[gamingmuscle]

Blanket nerfs to HC content is not the way to fix ovetuning. Not every boss in a raid instance is overtuned. The correct way to fix this is to address the specific issues with specific bosses. Nerfing every boss by some arbitrary amount is what really gets people pissed off.

As far as threshold goes, whatever Blizzard decides should be a very low percentage.

How is it not? It may not be the way you want it to be addressed, but it is a solution. A small gradually increasing nerf is better in my opinion than significant individual boss nerfs.

Preserves some of the ego value that some people put into progression.

[salamala]

And what about nerfed changes are allowing them to play now opposed to their situation before?

Not play, it allows hem to succeed. Hey, some people like the easy crossword puzzles some go for the hard. The more I see what video games have become from when I was a kid - everything is about punching in a code to have everything unlocked right off the bat. Never actually playing the game that was designed, just tearing it apart and then in 10 hours saying... wow that was lame i've done everything in the game already. And now, what seemed like the last bastion of difficult video gaming (wow, mmo raiding) is going 'if you can't beatem joinem'.

[marthsk]

Guys, guys, guys... this is Blizzard's game, not yours. Either get off your high horses, or leave without making a parade of it; nothing would warrant one anyway.

[Deleted]

Er... with the normal time frame, 10 h/week is enough to complete all heroic content. I can't see how that's no-lifer. I would call it having a hobby, and as with every hobby, enjoying a little effort. If I didn't play I would probably play other games or watch series, not be partying in a yatch in wednesday nights. The problem as always is not that other people get to complete it. It's that you run out of content faster, while there was already a couple of difficulties more aimed at having a proper difficulty for everyone. The complain resides there, unless the "big" announcement about MoP tomorrow is a sooner-than-intended date, it's what will happen. Yes, optional, blabla, but part of the fun is competing with the local guilds of your server. There goes that.

Although, this time they do have done it much better than with FL. A 5% nerf is a rather minor nerf. Far much better than the "here, do 6/7 HC in an afternoon and run out of content for the next two months". We had 6/7 at that point, but luckily we could chew on a pretty satisfying ragnaros the rest of the patch, and by the time we killed it 4.3 was around the corner. Don't know if we will be as lucky this time, seeing that this time the big boss depends that much on gear and health nerfs, and we are already at it.

Yes, ragnaros got easier with health nerfs and gear, but it still had myriad of mechanics that made the encounter hard, opposed to spine.

[wariofan1]

I lol'ed when I read that, simply because Blizzard has opposed that argument since like... forever. Oh Blizzard... you remind me of fanboys, only that this is for your own game.

Guys, guys, guys... this is Blizzard's game, not yours. Either get off your high horses, or leave without making a parade of it; nothing would warrant one anyway.

The whole ''this is Blizzard's game, they can do with it what they want'' argument is as dumb as the one in the OP. Sure, they can, but that doesn't mean that we have to like it, if we were blind followers, well hell would know where Blizzard could take this. It is a fact that more and more people decline WoW, especially with MoP upcoming and the giant Dragon Soul flop. Yes, it's Blizzard's game, not ours, but without us they'd be nothing, a think they should learn sooner or later.