Mind Spike as a part of the rotation?

[Vampiroth]

Im sorry but you do realize that that Kilee you are talking about is just above you? And where are your logs showing both the good and bad of each and every thing that you have tried, and is it with the same buffs, debuffs and is the fight equaly long?

Kilee posted as I posted. hence the post in the same minute, as you can see I edited the post... Did you read my post? I'm not the one doing the theorycrafting here I'm asking for logs so I can see the difference.

I admit I didn't actually read your original post.



So you are advocating casting Mind Blast without 3 orbs during the rotation? No, this is an incredible loss to dps. That is easy to prove just with simcraft.

10,000 iterations, with cancel aura: 43,138 dps
10,000 iterations, without cancel aura: 42,704 dps

Given that this is very easy to model in simcraft, and a very accurate representation of what you are advocating. At this point you need to explain to me why you think simcraft is wrong.

I was mainly addressing that he shouldn't be mind flaying, I did ask for logs of cancel aura being higher as it's something I've asked others about before. I don't see any logs in that thread of 1 rotation vs another rotation. If I am wrong and they are there please link me directly to the post rather than have me sort threw 10 pages.

Do you have numbers for casting mind flay in there too?

Did you even read the post on how to priest? There are logs on there. There is solid math and theorycrafting and logged evidence supporting that the ms+mb rotation is superior dps with 4pc t13. Even if you only use it as an opener it is easy to get insane burst on opening then just drop into the normal dot rotation for the rest of the fight. How on earth you think you can argue any differently is beyond all reason. Then you have the nerve to demand evidence and when it is provided you dismiss it for the most arbitrary reasons without providing any evidence to the contrary. Just save yourself further embarassment and politely back out of this thread.

I'm not sure if you even read what we are talking about.... We are discussing how to go about the ms+mb rotation. Which one is better, not dot vs ms+mb.

Casting MF during the MS/MB spam isn't a waste of GCD. Show me the calculation of it, please.
I slip a 1 GCD Mind Flay in once I've done 3-4 Mind Spikes, just before a Mind Blast.
Why? Because it means that as soon as I've casted my last MB I can reapply dots with my Dark Evangelism at 5 stacks.
You can argue it might be a minimal increase/decrease, but you got no numbers backing that up.

Your GCD pretty much ends as mind blast finishes casting, so you MF for 1 tick and youve casted mind blast. If you cancel aura and cast mind blast you use 1 gcd and get the orbs. You should get the orbs on the next mind spike cast too, so using the mind flay wouldn't use lose 1 hit of the shadow fiend.


I'm completely open to the idea of Cancel aura being better, I asked Vyroxx and he did start using that. Thats why I said please post logs. I wasn't being rude and saying your idea sucks I'm going to refute it no matter what. I can test it again as my gear has changed a ton since then. I haven't been using the ms+mb rotation in regular raid because I don't get time to reforge while doing other things. I have only tested in LFR.

Some people on here are just overly sensitive.

[Arlee]

I am sorry but no. This is exactly what you said that started this.

with shadow fiend up you only cast mind spike and mb. MS will take every set of orbs. MB being instant it will not get the orbs... Its a DPS loss to wait, or to cancel the aura to get MB the orbs. I've tested both ways and just spamming MS as fast as you can and using MB on CD is higher damage. If you have logs proving that your method works better vs what I am saying, please post them.

Your point from this statement seems to be that casting MB without the orbs immediately after MS is better than either waiting for orbs to proc from sf, filling that time you would wait for orbs with MF, or using a cancelaura so you have a full cast time on MB and orbs will proc while you are casting. If you meant that you wait for orbs you completely misstated what you meant.

Your GCD pretty much ends as mind blast finishes casting, so you MF for 1 tick and youve casted mind blast. If you cancel aura and cast mind blast you use 1 gcd and get the orbs. You should get the orbs on the next mind spike cast too, so using the mind flay wouldn't use lose 1 hit of the shadow fiend.

Did you mean to Mind Spike there? Because the way Cham was talking about MB would be instant so there is no when MB finishes casting. The method Cham was referring to was MSx3 MF (until orbs or MB is off CD) MB.

[Vampiroth]

I'm sorry that you completely fail to understand what I posted. I clearly state that I said I thought it was a DPS loss to wait to cast MB, or to cancel aura. I then said I spammed MS and use MB on CD, again clarifying that I did NOT wait, I used it instant cast and then continued casting Mind Spike. Also what are you saying no to? The fact that I wasn't asked for carification? Why would I say If you have logs proving that your method works better vs what I am saying, please post them.

There are no logs of rotation vs rotation being posted in here. They aren't in the thread you linked either, those are links to different fights...

And No, I meant Mind Blast. If you can't understand why I said that then I'm sorry, that is just another example of you failing to understand what I am saying. Sometimes things just don't come across as how you mean them over the internet, and again... this is a case of you being overly sensitive.

[reverendball]

surprised noone has asked, but did they queue as healer and then steal blue buff?

i can see that fixing the mana problem, as well as the +100% haste

[Arlee]

I meant no you don't get to pretend that you have been open to the idea of cancel aura because you stated as a fact that it was a dps loss and basically dared anyone to prove you wrong.

Yea I honestly don't understand how the GCD gets used up by the time you finish casting MB when the MB is instant. I am totally stumped by that concept.

[devilminion]

so we have smug trolls here too? good to know
casting MB after 3 MS will never get the 3 orbs ever. try it. u are the one coming here acting like a smug troll. download simcraft try and test the rotations and show us proof of what you are claiming.

[zakaluka]

It's like the 5-minute rule. This conversation has been ongoing since about 2 weeks after 4.3 came out . Does 3 extra ticks of mind flay during wings make a difference? probably not. It might even be inside simcraft's resolution. Does it have a remote possibility of extending your warlock's DI buff? sure. In this one situation (which has a very low chance of occurring) the 3 ticks of MF were well worth it.

Either you're waiting for orbs or you're not. cancelaura does nothing with that gcd, mf at least does something (but really not much)

Kilee's guide is pretty much beyond contest to most of us around here, because all the theory is really easy to understand and pretty rock solid. If you can't be bothered to read it, sorry. Don't come in here guns blaring and get defensive when the whole forum jumps on you at once.

Now, if you have a good theory about why your idea is better other than 'someone show me a log...' we'll be glad to discuss it.

[Vampiroth]

Asking is now daring by because I didn't put a question mark? Another example of flawless logic by you.

Why are you even posting here when you have nothing productive to say? Because you are a mod and can contribute nothing to a threads discussion and get away with it because you think your opinion of what my post meant is different than what it actually was?

Also as far as the GCD. When you cast mind blast you get the GCD at the beginning of the cast... this last for the majority of the cast, and only a little bit of the cast is off GCD. If you mind flay for a tick you get a gcd, you then instant cast mind blast and get another GCD. Those 2 gcd's are longer than that 1 gcd from a casted mind blast AND the extra time on that cast. Therefor you will begin casting another mind spike sooner. Unless you have math proving this wrong too of course, which I'm sure you dont.

Even if you stop spiking early to get that mf tick in, mind spike would do substantially more damage than that 1 tick of flay.

---------- Post added 2012-01-24 at 10:10 PM ----------

Or was it the tone in my voice over the internet that made it a dare?

[zakaluka]

because you changed your story, and you're defensive. You called out the guide stickied in this forum then state you'll only believe otherwise if someone can make a case with logs. And now you're frantically responding to every post made in this thread, in a defensive tone.

You're being a jerk. just let it go.

[Kilee25]

This a complex subject, and there's no easy answer. Asking for logs that prove which rotation work best is never going to be feasable, because you would need something close to 10,000 logs, revealing an average dps amount from using different methods. Raid logs do not reveal truths about small differences in cast rotations. I need you to understand and agree with this concept before we can continue this discussion. Asking for a raid log that proves once and for all that one rotation is "THE BEST" is like asking which fish in the lake is the tastiest, but then only picking out one fish to eat. You CANNOT discern that type of information in such a small sample. Anything you deduce from looking at a log is going to automatically be subject to massive RNG and opinion.

You can figure out "big things" from looking at logs. Using "some kind of mind spike rotation" increases DPS. This is very easy to tell. Figuring out which rotation does more, on average... you don't go to the logs to figure that out. You need to go to simcraft, or start crunching numbers out of math equations.

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This is what I KNOW about the mind spike rotation: if you spam Mind Spike until Mind Blast is off cooldown, and then use an instant Mind Blast, you will eat orbs with Mind Spike and Mind Blast wont' get any. ANY method of keeping this from happening is better. There are THREE methods to keep this from happening.

1. Use a cancel aura macro. Spam Mind Spike until Mind Blast is off CD. Cancel Mind Melt, and cast Mind Blast. Since your GCD is a little faster than the shadowfiend's swing timer, there's still a chance with this method that Mind Blast will hit with no orbs, but it is very small - about 25%. (I don't like this method because there's a chance Mind Blast will still hit without orbs.)

2. Don't use a cancel aura macro, and just wait for 3 orbs to be available before hitting an instant Mind Blast. Spam Mind Spike until Mind Blast is off CD. Wait until 3 orbs appear, hit Mind Blast, and continue. This method is harder, and requires a fast connection with low latency, but with it, ther is 0% chance to not hit a Mind Blast with 0 orbs. (I like this method better, and it is what I use for fights like Hagara and Spine.)

3. Use a "spacer" like Mind Flay, or refreshing dots near the end of the rotation, right before Mind Blast comes off cooldown. The Mind Flay builds stacks of evangelism, and does a small bit of damage while waiting for orbs. There is 0% chance to hit a Mind Blast with 0 orbs, but there is a chance to miss an opportunity to cast Mind Spike with 3 orbs using this method. The DPET of the Mind Flay then becomes the damage the mind Flay does, plus the 4% to 6% damage of the next VT, DP, 2 SW: P ticks, and Mind Flay that is cast. This damage is nearly equivalent, or potentially even higher than #2, because of not wasting time not casting anything.

ANY combination of the above 3 methods is valid, and works. In addition, all three combinations are not going to show a discernable difference on world of logs. The damage is too random, and the gains or losses due to the differences in the methods are too small to be revealed in a small sample. I could look at 3 world of logs samples using each of the above three methods, and make up any conclusions I wanted, because the results would appear to be basically the same, and the amount of DPS done on each log would have NOTHING to do with the rotation used.

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To Arlee, I believe what Vampiroth is talking about with the whole "GCD gets used up by the time you finish casting MB" is that an instant MB still uses up a GCD, and the cast that happens after it takes a GCD to land. Supposing that you cast an instant MB, and the shadowfiend lands a hit immediately after you cast it - by the time your next spell hits (mind spike), 2 GCDs have passed, and you may waste a swing of the shadowfiend.

In metered, time it would look like this:

Mind Blast (instant) -> Shadowfiend hits -> Shadowfiend hits -> Mind Spike lands.

I suspect what Vampiroth is saying is that because there's a chance this can happen, using any rotation with an instant Mind Blast is intrinsically a flawed rotation. I don't know what any other conclusion you could make about it, and this would seem to go against his saying that you should spam MS/MB without a cancel aura. So in truth I don't know what he is trying to say about this, other than it is possible to happen. *shrug*

[Vampiroth]

What you posted referring to the GCD is absolutely what I am talking about.

The only reason I may be being a jerk towards Arlee is because he/she is suspecting to know what I am saying over the internet. Which isn't true. While I understand Arlee is a mod on a highly trafficked website, and probably has to deal with a bunch of stupid people on a daily basis, that doesn't mean he/she should treat everyone that way or act like they don't know anything.

If it did come off that way, sorry. Thank you for clarification Kilee, I will leave this at use what works best for you.

[Zarqa]

Vampiroth, I might (also) misunderstand you, but are you saying that an instant MB is better than waiting, even when it is a 0 orb MB, because the next MS will get the full orbs? And that if you wait/MF/cancelaura, that first MS will not (as seen by Kilee's metered approach above)?

Because if that is the case, it simply is a matter of whether a 0 Orb MB, 3 Orb MS, 0 Orb MS is more DPS than a clipped MF, 3 Orb MB, 0 Orb MS.
I think the first is (and so do most here), while you seem to argue the second is.

Trying to bring it down to a simple comparison of spells. But I probably misunderstood all the arguments......

[Vampiroth]

This thread is probably confusing as hell to read threw. My original post said that I felt just mind spiking and using mb on the instant cast not waiting for orbs would be best. I was open to the idea of using a cancel aura macro if someone was having better results than what I was having.

I'm completely against using MF in that rotation at all, Kilee stated when you use MF and MB both you could waste globals resulting in a loss of DPS if shadowfiend hits you wont consume those orbs before it hits again wasting a set of orbs.

I'll probably switch to testing cancel aura more now as my gear has changed a bunch since I last tested it.

[Kilee25]

I'm completely against using MF in that rotation at all, Kilee stated when you use MF and MB both you could waste globals resulting in a loss of DPS if shadowfiend hits you wont consume those orbs before it hits again wasting a set of orbs.

As I was saying, there is a flaw in cancel aura macro method as well. There is a chance that you will cast a Mind Blast without 3 orbs anyway.

Shadowfiend Hits -> Mind Spike hits -> (cancel aura) -> Mind Blast hits -> Shadowfiend hits

There's actually a pretty high chance this can happen (up to 25%).

It's difficult to say which method is better. Having the shadowfiend hit just after an instant Mind Blast, or having shadowfiend hit just before Mind Spike lands with a cancel aura Mind Spike following. Either method can lead to mistakes. The purpose of the #2 and #3 rotations I've listed is to avoid this scenerio and control when Mind Blast lands so that it always hits with 3 orbs.

If you're just asking me which method I think is "absolutely superior", I'd probably go with #2, which uses an instant cast Mind blast. #2 avoids the double SF hit scenerio if you have good reaction skills, because you are hitting MB immediately after the SF hits, and there isn't enough time for it to hit inbetween the next Mind Spike.

I like #3 however when I'm just doing a single target rotation. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree if you're trying to say cancel-aura is superior to instant mind blast based on the GCD vs swing timer alone. Both methods have potential flaws, but I'll take the one that garantees me a 3-orb Mind Blast if I have a choice.

Edit: You could however use a cancel aura macro and wait a few tenths of a second before hitting Mind Blast, just to be safe. You'd have to practice this in game to get a feel for the correct amount of time to wait.

[Deleted]

As I was saying, there is a flaw in cancel aura macro method as well. There is a chance that you will cast a Mind Blast without 3 orbs anyway.

Shadowfiend Hits -> Mind Spike hits -> (cancel aura) -> Mind Blast hits -> Shadowfiend hits

There's actually a pretty high chance this can happen (up to 25%).

It's difficult to say which method is better. Having the shadowfiend hit just after an instant Mind Blast, or having shadowfiend hit just before Mind Spike lands with a cancel aura Mind Spike following. Either method can lead to mistakes. The purpose of the #2 and #3 rotations I've listed is to avoid this scenerio and control when Mind Blast lands so that it always hits with 3 orbs.

If you're just asking me which method I think is "absolutely superior", I'd probably go with #2, which uses an instant cast Mind blast. #2 avoids the double SF hit scenerio if you have good reaction skills, because you are hitting MB immediately after the SF hits, and there isn't enough time for it to hit inbetween the next Mind Spike.

I like #3 however when I'm just doing a single target rotation. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree if you're trying to say cancel-aura is superior to instant mind blast based on the GCD vs swing timer alone. Both methods have potential flaws, but I'll take the one that garantees me a 3-orb Mind Blast if I have a choice.

Edit: You could however use a cancel aura macro and wait a few tenths of a second before hitting Mind Blast, just to be safe. You'd have to practice this in game to get a feel for the correct amount of time to wait.

From own experience, it rarely happens that Mind Blast get zero orbs. At our current haste levels, it doesn't happen that often. Our first Mind Blast is always instant since we wait for SF GCD. After that we can fit 4 Mind Spikes in the cooldown of Mind Blast. After our 4 Mind Spikes there will be around 0.3 sec before Mind Blast comes off cooldown again.

So you wait a bit there then cast Mind Blast with one stack of Mind Melt(use cancelaura during 4th Mind Spike cast). That time should be enough for you to get another Shadowfiend swing. On the last "round", you Mind Spike a bit and then refresh VT and if you saw that Shadowfiend hit exactly as your last Mind Spike landed you can throw in a SW:P after the VT and still get off the instant Mind Blast before the trinket runs out (Botteled Wishes). I think my Ultraxion video is quite a good proof of that.

All in all it should look something like this:

Mind Spikex2
Shadowfiend
AA-Trinket-Mind Blast(instant)
Mind Spikex4 and cancelaura during 4th Mind Spike
0.3 sec wait time
Mind Blast
Mind Spikex3
VT
SW:P/DP if you see that you won't get orb, else Mind Blast(instant)
Trinket wears off

This is what has been working for me. I still need to get used to using this and implementing it into my play. There are points where I can use it but I fail. I think at this point it is all about choosing a decent MS/MB rotation and try to implement it into one's play. Like I failed horribly today on Warmaster when I for some reason Mind Blasted when SF and AA were 1 second from coming off cooldown=S.

[Veiled]

Reading something someone suggest vs seeing actual evidence that you obviously cannot provide. Made sense... All I said was I wanted to see logs. Comparing 2 people on different fights with different lengths is just stupid.

When you get logs of it rather than a THEORY prove it. The shadow priest I provided is the #1 priest on some heroic fights, and top 3 on multiple others, not using cancel aura or using mind flay...

"When you get logs of it rather than a THEORY prove it." -- Hi, you must be new here..This is why it's called THEORYCRAFTING.

You're arguing a point saying "provide me logs showing two different things". That's reasonable when your argument comes from a place of logic rather than whatever place it's coming from with you. If you want proof, go to a training dummy and do it yourself. I spent all day doing this and saw a gain every time.

ALL theorycrafting done in the shadow priest community is done for people like you who don't know what they are talking about. If you want to argue the validity of what Kilee claims then fine, argue away. I happen to know that he spends an UNREAL amount of time doing this stuff for the shadow priest community. SO when he says one thing works better than another, I tend to believe him as a credible source VS believing someone who's come out of the woodwork in a feeble attempt to troll.

ps: Arlee is awesome.

[Worshaka]

...I thought it was a DPS loss to wait to cast MB, or to cancel aura. I then said I spammed MS and use MB on CD...

This statement is flawed for a couple of reasons.

1. Whether a spell is instant or has a cast time equal to the GCD means that in either instance it's DPeT is identical. If the spell is instant it will deal it's damage immediately but then cause you to be unable to cast for a period of time equal to the GCD. In the other instance you spend the GCD time casting and deal the damage at the end of the GCD but then have the faciilty to cast your next spell immediately.

In either case the amount of time you took to cast that spell is identical with the only distinction being whether the damage was record at the start or end of the GCD. Therefore making a statement that a cancelaura macro would be a DPS loss is absurd. In the worst case that your fiend had a missed melee hit or didn't attack quick enough you would be casting a 0 orb MB for the same amount of time if it were instant. Of course 99% of the time you will delay the damage on MB till the end of the GCD allowing your fiend to generate 3 orbs and therefore get a full orb'd MB instead. Effectively a cancelaura macro only has the facility to increase your DPS.

2. The problem with a cancelaura macro is that for people with bad ping (such as myself that has to put up with Aussie pings 200ms or greater), the cancel aura doesn't work on the application of mindmelt because it's not recorded quick enough to remove, meaning 1 application of mindmelt is applied making MB cast in half a GCD's worth of time which is still too quick to get the 3 orbs you want it to have. In this instance it is desirable to cast MF to allow enough time for fiend to make a melee swing and therefore register a fully orb'd MB.

If you look at the DPeT of a 3 orb MB vs a 0 orb MB there is a difference of 25K in BiS gear, you almost double the DPeT for getting 3 orbs. That gets further magnified when under the effects of temp buffs and AA.

So if you take the example of MS MS MS MS MB(0) MS MS MS MS MS MB(0) vs MS MS MS MF MB(3) MS MS MS MS MF MB(3), what you are trying to convince us of is that losing out on 50K damage is made up by casting MS over MF. Now I'm not sure what the DPeT of a 3 orb spike is in this gear but for you to be ahead it needs to be > (50k + 18.5 * 2) / 2 = 43.5k. I'm not convinced it's that high, if it is you are talking about marginal damage and I'm also failing to factor in the dark evangalism stacks for when you re-dot and that's very likely to make up any shortfall.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

I also made a slight mistake, MB is guaranteed to crit so you are looking at a difference of 100k damage with MB casts. A MB(0) will crit for 60k, a MB(3) will crit for 110k (this is an approximation because DPeT takes into account crits so you can't just double the nominal DPeT but these numbers are close enough and also optimistic in the MB(0) favour). So MS(3) needs to have a DPeT that is near 70K and that certainly isn't the case.

[Arlee]

What you posted referring to the GCD is absolutely what I am talking about.

The only reason I may be being a jerk towards Arlee is because he/she is suspecting to know what I am saying over the internet. Which isn't true. While I understand Arlee is a mod on a highly trafficked website, and probably has to deal with a bunch of stupid people on a daily basis, that doesn't mean he/she should treat everyone that way or act like they don't know anything.

If it did come off that way, sorry. Thank you for clarification Kilee, I will leave this at use what works best for you.

If you have an issue with me send Sunshine a tell she is very helpful about this sort of stuff.

Honestly the first reason I sort of went for you was because you said:

Also, I would disregard SkillOverKill's post. You should not wait for orbs to mind blast, and you should not mind flay at all while shadowfiend is up.

And heck yea I am going to defend the people around here who often post and have proven that they know how to play, from people telling other people to ignore them especially when there was not a single thing wrong with Skill's post in the slightest. So if you really want to pinpoint it, it started there. Just wanted to clarify that for you.

[FieryBull]

MFlaying is also better when you have DI on you, and when you have Necromantic Focus as a trinket (so you don't lose your stacked buff)

[Zarqa]

For what it's worth: this whole heated discussion has made me understand the MS/MB options better than just from reading the related thread in H2P. I am definitely a SP that really appreciates it, even with all the flared tempers. Thanks for everyone explaining their arguments in great detail