PvP Healer Queuing needs to be revamped

[Serurian]

You should read the first posts in this discussion if you want to post. I'm not saying he cant have his opinion, hell I cant have my opinion either? He's argumenting that I need to RBG's because I find them fun. He's also stating he knows what the majority of the wow population wants, and that's gear.

Also, I dont recall having said anything negative about the length of bgs, so that's maybe you trolling me?

Please repost something new and constructive to this discussion so we can get moving

If you had read the entire discussion like you claim I should, you would see I have been posting repeatedly thru this discussion. What people are simply saying is that this idea of the OP to create a raid style start to BG's would not work.

A. Gear Requirements: Have yet to hear how forcing a gear requirement for a lvl 85 bg but not having one for the 80-84 bracket makes any sense at all. Also what is the magical gear requirement, Twilight Highlands lvl? What about the people that leveled thru BG's? There is no progressive gear between 80 and 85. Increase the ilvl of lvl 80 pvp gear for those that didn't go thru PVE or does everyone now have to do PVE to play BG's?

B. Role Selection: You would have DPS select healer role without actually being the healer. This already happens in raids and dungeons, if this is news to anyone, they must not have been on wow for long.

C. Queue times: Just because some high pop battlegroups and servers have low queue, doesn't mean all servers share that. Many of us already are 7 minute queue's we don't want 2-3 more minutes just to appease someone that thinks you can only win with having 2 healers.

D. You can win without having healers! This whole discussion is moot because if you are good players you can win without healers, maybe is a learn to play issue rather than a "I lost it's because they had more healers, they need to change everything for me" excuse. Hell you can even win with 1 massively undergeared healer.

On another note, it is your way of typing that at times makes it hard to understand what you mean. So I apologize for thinking you meant length of the BG's themselves rather than them being in WoW for a long time.

[omniscience]

If you had read the entire discussion like you claim I should, you would see I have been posting repeatedly thru this discussion. What people are simply saying is that this idea of the OP to create a raid style start to BG's would not work.

A. Gear Requirements: Have yet to hear how forcing a gear requirement for a lvl 85 bg but not having one for the 80-84 bracket makes any sense at all. Also what is the magical gear requirement, Twilight Highlands lvl? What about the people that leveled thru BG's? There is no progressive gear between 80 and 85. Increase the ilvl of lvl 80 pvp gear for those that didn't go thru PVE or does everyone now have to do PVE to play BG's?

B. Role Selection: You would have DPS select healer role without actually being the healer. This already happens in raids and dungeons, if this is news to anyone, they must not have been on wow for long.

C. Queue times: Just because some high pop battlegroups and servers have low queue, doesn't mean all servers share that. Many of us already are 7 minute queue's we don't want 2-3 more minutes just to appease someone that thinks you can only win with having 2 healers.

D. You can win without having healers! This whole discussion is moot because if you are good players you can win without healers, maybe is a learn to play issue rather than a "I lost it's because they had more healers, they need to change everything for me" excuse. Hell you can even win with 1 massively undergeared healer.

On another note, it is your way of typing that at times makes it hard to understand what you mean. So I apologize for thinking you meant length of the BG's themselves rather than them being in WoW for a long time.

Accepted and I concur for not being clear in my post.

I haven't really given it much more thought than the first post I wrote about having it work like the dungeon que system, but since you've posted some ideas/problems let me write what I think.

A. I think it could work for max lvls only, since I agree on the part that many uses bgs to lvl and it'll have alot of problems with different lvls of players.

B. Maybe blizzard could invoke a system that locked your on role when you queued. So if a shadow priest checks healer he cant join when he's in his shadow spec. Something like that

C. I can see the consequence of this system, and I noted it in my first post aswell. I also play on a server (have an alt on a high pop one) with high queues and personally, I wouldn't mind a 2 minute longer que in addition to the 7 minute, if it would mean I could play a balanced one.

D. Yes, ofc you can win without healers. But alot of people joining bgs aren't good enough to make a difference. The situation happends maybe 1 out of 20 bgs because of luck. Alot of posters inhere concur that it's def not a l2p issue, but an issue with the difference around having 0-1 healer on your team whereas the opposing have 5.

[NightZero88]

Accepted and I concur for not being clear in my post.

I haven't really given it much more thought than the first post I wrote about having it work like the dungeon que system, but since you've posted some ideas/problems let me write what I think.

A. I think it could work for max lvls only, since I agree on the part that many uses bgs to lvl and it'll have alot of problems with different lvls of players.

B. Maybe blizzard could invoke a system that locked your on role when you queued. So if a shadow priest checks healer he cant join when he's in his shadow spec. Something like that

C. I can see the consequence of this system, and I noted it in my first post aswell. I also play on a server (have an alt on a high pop one) with high queues and personally, I wouldn't mind a 2 minute longer que in addition to the 7 minute, if it would mean I could play a balanced one.

D. Yes, ofc you can win without healers. But alot of people joining bgs aren't good enough to make a difference. The situation happends maybe 1 out of 20 bgs because of luck. Alot of posters inhere concur that it's def not a l2p issue, but an issue with the difference around having 0-1 healer on your team whereas the opposing have 5.

I apologize if this has been addressed before but how are you going to confirm that healers are actually decent? For example, let's say Blizz takes your advice and implements this and they even go further as to lock down your role with what you queue as. Here's what I see happening. Hey, I'm Mr. ret/prot pally or mr. enhance shammy and I want an instant queue. So I queue as a healer, with a healing spec while wearing my ret gear, what then? Are you going to have Blizz implement a check on what gear they are wearing? Also, what happens when your healer queues up wearing a full set of PvE gear and gets smashed? Are you going to then request Blizz has a res rating requirement to queue(Personally I would love if this existed by the way). Even if your idea goes in, there will still need to be a bunch more things behind it to make sure that system works as well.

While in theory it is a sound idea, it would take a lot of work to get it to function correctly when you could as I've said just queue for a rated BG. Now you said you can't do that and for that I apologize but don't you think that fact alone does indeed put you in the minority as I've said?

It is far simpler to just leave the system as is because it works, your idea introduces a whole slew of problems and Blizz has clearly shown they are bad at solving problems with new systems being introduced.

[omniscience]

I apologize if this has been addressed before but how are you going to confirm that healers are actually decent? For example, let's say Blizz takes your advice and implements this and they even go further as to lock down your role with what you queue as. Here's what I see happening. Hey, I'm Mr. ret/prot pally or mr. enhance shammy and I want an instant queue. So I queue as a healer, with a healing spec while wearing my ret gear, what then? Are you going to have Blizz implement a check on what gear they are wearing? Also, what happens when your healer queues up wearing a full set of PvE gear and gets smashed? Are you going to then request Blizz has a res rating requirement to queue(Personally I would love if this existed by the way). Even if your idea goes in, there will still need to be a bunch more things behind it to make sure that system works as well.

While in theory it is a sound idea, it would take a lot of work to get it to function correctly when you could as I've said just queue for a rated BG. Now you said you can't do that and for that I apologize but don't you think that fact alone does indeed put you in the minority as I've said?

It is far simpler to just leave the system as is because it works, your idea introduces a whole slew of problems and Blizz has clearly shown they are bad at solving problems with new systems being introduced.

Indeed it introduces challenges and maybe problems. But i've seen dozen of players in dungeons speccing healer whilst they have 4/5 pieces of str gear, so it's not a new problem, although this example dont solve the problem either.
I agree that a res req will solve the problem with pve geared players, but the 40% baseline coming in mop is set in motion, so that's one problem out of the world.

Now with people who feel they need to snatch easy honor by selecting the role their gear dont contribute... I dont know, mana req?

[Serurian]

The current system while it has flaws is not broken in such a way that blizzard would fix it, even if these were actual blizz. forums and blizz. actually read this. The fix suggested would cause many more issues than the current system has, from having to ensure people were in right type of gear and right type of spec. To having to ensure that they had a mana level now?

it's way more complex than is needed for a system that works, it may not always work, but it is random. Sure you may not always like the randomized results, sometimes they are in your favor sometimes they are not. Not to beat on a dead horse here but if you want to ensure something happens a certain way, you need to trade chat spam and get more people to join you. Form a guild or join one already on your server that has more people that are active at pvp so can join premade random bg's then. There are a bunch of solutions already available, to not take them just because they are not the ideal solution for you, is not enough reason for blizzard to totally remake the system.

[Hatexoxo]

I honestly think this would be a waste of time. First off the OP says he queues for RANDOMS for the challenge. This destroys any credit to his name to be honest. Randoms are for gearing not for a challenge, randoms are only challenging if it is premade vs. premade which is essentially a rated BG. If you want a challenge do Arenas or Rateds. It takes 5 minutes for me to put together a Rated group at any level with my guild. While this obviously isn't going to be the case since realm size and guild size can affect it. The point is is that it is easy to make a Rated group if you really wanted a challenge.

Secondly you don't need healers to beat a team of 5 healers. With that many dps on your team its not hard to blow someone up if your cc correctly.

[Korgoth]

The situation can get even worse...if you happen to be on the side that, by RNG has ZERO healers...yey, funny, 6 Warriors, 2 Rogues a Retadin and a Hunter against 2 Holys, two Diszis and some DDs, t

Yeah that right there is the issue. If that was 6 mages, or Warlocks, or Ferals or Shadow Priests, or even 8 rogues, you could have CC'd your way to Victory, or octo-bombed flag returned. But you got 6 of the gimpest class in the game; that is just tough luck.

Setting up forced roles in BGs wont work because it makes the queue time longer and because people will just click healer then not heal. BGs are not instances, the group does not stop and kick someone if they are not performing the role they choose. Hell half the time you have multiple players standing around doing nothing or botting.

[DSRilk]

Personally, if I queue for random bgs it is for fast honor for gear. I believe this is the case for most people doing random bgs. If you want to actually enjoy the fight then queue for rated bgs with friends.

I queue random BGs because I like to PvP and don't have 10 people on hand to do RBGs most of the time I pop on to play for a bit. I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one who plays because they like it.

vocal minority hates IoC and SotA

I'm not sure it's a minority. I, for one, hate IoC and SotA. I don't like them because they don't feel like PvP to me. It's all player-versus-wall. I mean, you win IoC by riding in stuff, shooting gates, and burning down a PvE boss. At least in AV towers you fight other players while trying to hold or take them back (assuming you're not in a bumrush the boss pack, which is why AV isn't one of my favorites either). You win SotA by rooting and snaring demos or cleansing them and cc'ing players. Honestly, if you're in SotA and you're stopping to try and kill someone, you're doing it wrong. And *that* is why I don't like those. There should not be BGs where killing other players doesn't help you win. I think there are very valid arguments against those BGs.

---------- Post added 2012-01-25 at 10:30 PM ----------

Oh, and they don't need to require X healers and tanks for BGs. I think just having roughly the same on each side would do it and not really affect queue times at all.

[Repo123]

I agree and would support this idea 100%. It's virtually a given when you enter a BG and see the enemy has 3-4 healers and you have none that it's already a loss. And that's disheartening.

Somewhat off-topic, but if the decision is made to make random BG's a queueing system like LFD, could we instill SOME sort of Ilvl requirement? Nothing insanely high, maybe 329 equivalent to heroics. It's pretty aggravating to join a WSG or TP and see that 10-20% of your team is comprised of 94k hp DK's wearing WotLK gear, knowing full well they will be virtually useless to the team.

You could always roll a healer.

[DSRilk]

You could always roll a healer.

Oddly, every time I bring my healer, I swear there are 4 other healers already there. The moment I bring my dps guy, there are no healers to be found. Bad luck.

[Takanami]

Agree! Just let us que as healers or damage dealers and let the system assign a max of so many heals per team dependent on the size of the bg group. Seems like it would be a nice set up.

[Deleted]

Rated BGs provide a more balanced environment for players to compete in with the caveat that the player gets the team together. If you just want to do a quick bit of PVP then you can hit the Random button for a random match-up. Expecting Blizzard to match up teams according to gear, roles and specs without it adversely affecting queue times is a dream. People say they wouldn't mind an increase in queue if it guaranteed a more fair battle but they can't seem to find the time to set up an RGB which would provide the same benefits now. Random queue is random- I remember one WSG I had on my priest where it was me, a Ret Pala and 8 rogues in our team. of course all 8 rogues went in stealth and just hanged about in mid while the opposing team farmed me and the pala until I had enough and left the BG. I didn't open up a ticket asking blizz to restrict the amount of rogues I could be grouped with, I just waited until the debuff wore off and queued again.
Whats to stop Mr Shadow Priest from clicking on the healer button for a quick queue?

[Kogarandel]

Not sure if serious on the bolded and underlined part. You're asking me if I'm using random bgs to get gear? Um..yes. So is everyone that plays WoW. You get honor from random BGs and you use that honor to buy gear. Where have you been?

And I'd be super excited to have a death match style BG but Blizz has already said they won't do it. Besides that, I fail to see how BG objectives have ANY bearing on me getting honor and gear. Your post really makes little sense.

My argument is extremely valid for not making the changes suggested. If you require at least 2 healers, queue times will go up and matches will last longer. The main reason people do BGs is for honor to gear up. Those two changes fly in the face of this. If you want to play matches where you have healers and strats you play RATED bgs, that is why Blizz made the damn thing.

While I do admit getting a team full of idiots does suck it is still faster to lose with said team of idiots and get honor then to play a 30 minute clincher to the end because both teams have healers. I could do at least 2 matches in the time it takes you to do one.

Does no one play the game for fun anymore?

I play on a low population server, Ravenholdt. We have all of zero pvp guilds on our server, with the last gladiator being crowned during the Relentless season.

As someone who's been playing this game extensively throughout the last 6 years, I do actually like to pvp for fun. WHAT?! BLASPHEMY!!! NO ONE CAN HAVE FUN IN WOW!!!!!

I beg to differ. I see all these arguments about "You're stopping us from getting gear faster, qq!"

On my mage, which hit 85 4 months ago, I was able to gather a full set of honor gear within 2 weeks. So is that the end of my character? My arena partner(s) isn't always online, I only raid 16 hours a week, there are no RBGs on my server, world pvp is -very- dead on Ravenholdt... So am I supposed to afk in Orgrimmar all day waiting for the TB queue? No thanks.

I like wasting time by queueing for random BGs, not for lulgearcauseimsobadineedgeartocarryme, andimfartoolazytogetgearfromoneofthehundredthousandotheroptionsinthegame, but because I like PvPing. I find it a fun way to spend my time. I like having the ability to virtually carry a group to victory on my own.

Now, why would changing random BGs to make them more fun be bad? Is it so wrong that this element of the game should cater to people other than those who only do random BGs for two weeks to get their l33t epicz?

Either make a rated BG queueing system, or fix the healer imbalance. It's impossible for one good player to kill even one dps being supported by even two healers, when I have no healer of my own, and lets face it. The current community means that only rarely will I queue with other people who care about having fun and winning, as people like the above quoted think random BGs are 'just for gear.'

/endrant

[DSRilk]

they can't seem to find the time to set up an RGB which would provide the same benefits now

Are you actually comparing the time it takes to get a full BG team together in /trade chat to the time it takes a server to gather a full BG team from a cross-server pool with the only caveat being matching healer numbers? Not gear, just spec.

[roahn the warlock]

I agree on most of the wall. It's def not fun to be outnumbered 4-1 in healers. I try that often.

Maybe Blizz could incorpe a system that checked the que for healers, every1´s gear and class mb - something so we'd end up with decent balanced teams.

But I feel your opinion on this one. It's fucking frustration to play with

How I pray for a system like in starcraft, every day.

---------- Post added 2012-01-25 at 09:20 PM ----------

Also want to add, I have been in a bg against 5 healers and still won. it's just a pain in the ass

[Cliche]

I'm not trying to be rude, but if you want healers, queue with healers or re roll heals.

You may say that you shouldnt have to, and blizzard shouldnt make you have to do that. But as for me, I'd rather roll the dice and hope I have a healer or two in my bg instead of trading my 5-10 second queue (yes it's that short, alliance darkspear) for a 5 minute queue where I might have a competent healer that might know wtf is going on.

I think people to need to remember what CC is when it comes to complaining about outrageous numbers of healers on the other team.

[Scratches]

It wont have the greatest impact on high populated bg-groups, but the concern is ofc the smaller ones where ques possibly would be too high.

I would gladly trade my 10 seconds que with a 2-3 min one, if it would mean I could get a balanced bg.

I like the idea but as someone mentioned, it might get nasty on low pop realms due to longer queues and what if there's a lot of healers on that low pop realm, then the queue for healers would be even longer.

I don't know how people still believe this -- it really baffles me. Battlegroups no longer exist for non-rated (non-Arena?) pvp. It's been said a million times, and it's been like that since the 4.0 patch. Have you guys really gone a whole year without putting 2 and 2 together?
If you need proof of this, go to the wow site, look up your battlegroup, and take note of all the servers in it. Then, join a battleground, look at all the players from servers that aren't in that list, and be amazed at how such a feat of technology could ever have happened.

//edit: proof in writing, if one so desires/needs it

Because of this new-fangled system, if you have a long battleground queue on one server (as Horde, for instance), you're going to have a long battleground queue on another server just the same (also when playing as Horde, of course).

Off-topic, but do you have a 10 second queue? Mine are usually 10 mins at best... :S

Yours are that long because you're Horde (judging by your sig); Alliance has near-instant queues, all day, every day.
Well, on American servers, at least. The same might hold true on Euro servers, but I've no idea... *shrug*

[propriest]

lol, so interupt and cc the healers? Rated bgs usually run 4 heals, yet they do fine. Wonder what's different there. Oh thats right, they actually know how to play.

[anabolicz]

that would be so wonderfull, i tried beeing a healer as ally once.... jeey look at me im the only healer. opposing team: 3-5 healers and dps that actually target healers.. when im dps in bg i my self try to kill the healers while my team-mates tries to kill a dks with 3heals on him :S How can u make this happen? easy! just remove the ability to activate secondary talent in bg. and post a requirment, for 3 healers in each bg.

[yuca247]

I agree with the OP, it's not fun when one team has 5 healers and the other side has no healers regardless of what side you are on.

As a side note, the damage people are putting out these days with gear and legendary weapons is just ridiculous. It's to a point where it's getting out of hand. I just wanted to get that off my chest.