Virginia: Ultrasound required before abortion

[eriseis]

I'm actually a little surprised that people use this excuse. "You are nothing more than a parasitic organism until you pop out of that magical line. Then, by the power of Zeus, you are a human being!" If you are trying to imply that a fetus cannot survive without the proper care growth, then you are right. At the same time though, neither can a baby or a toddler. A fetus can be grown in a tube, so we obviously have the care to grow it, and a baby can be taken care of by responsible adults, so we obviously have the level of care for them as well. Those levels may vary, but neither can survive without the caregiver. So babies are parasites too?
It just sounds like a lame excuse for pro-choicers to distance themselves from the emotional side of the decision. Now, I am a pro-choice person myself, but I have never liked the lack of responsibility rampant on this side of the fence. Own up to your decisions, I won't tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body, but she better damn well know what exactly she IS doing.

The thing in the womb does not start out as a fetus, btw. It's a fetus in later stages of development.

[palladiamors]

Absolutely pathetic.

So why are all these guys getting blown up in Iraq and Afghanistan for if it's not to preserve freedoms and freedom of choice etc?

What about the freedom and freedom of choice of that unborn child, hm? Oh, sorry, forgot, you'd rather let them be murdered before they even GET that choice. Personally? There are VERY few cases where abortion is even kind of okay. Rape, or if the mother and or child aren't likely to survive the birth. Otherwise you are essentially killing off a baby. I have NO IDEA when that became an acceptable thing to do in society.

[Polarthief]

Reason can be just as flawed as emotion

Sounds like the sex drive of humans once they're already horny >_>

[Bakis]

I'm one of those who consider abortion without making it harder for the woman or trying to make her feel guilty, to be a human right.

[Polarthief]

What about the freedom and freedom of choice of that unborn child, hm? Oh, sorry, forgot, you'd rather let them be murdered before they even GET that choice. Personally? There are VERY few cases where abortion is even kind of okay. Rape, or if the mother and or child aren't likely to survive the birth. Otherwise you are essentially killing off a baby. I have NO IDEA when that became an acceptable thing to do in society.

Okay and what if the baby CAN'T be taken care of by the mother?

Either make it painless for the UNBORN child, or let them suffer as they die slowly. Personally, I'd be for painless killing if they HAD to choose one.

[Maelstrom51]

Its funny this thread was Godwin'd in the first page.

On topic: This bill is dumb. So dumb.

[phenom568]

It's because people take the word "parasite" to mean "bad".

A baby or a toddler is definitely a human being. It has the proper parts to function as a person. It only lacks the mental capacity to take care of itself.

Pull a 2-month old fetus out of a womb, and see if it can digest breast milk. Or even understand that it needs food to survive. It's not possible, because it's not a fully functional life-form. It will most likely turn into one, but that's neither here nor there. People project what it "could be" onto what it currently is, which is a parasitic organism that benefits from its host. Cut off the host, and the parasite dies.

I'm pro-life, by the way. I just understand the development of a human fetus. It's a glob of cells for a long period of time(during which time most people get their abortions). So is my spit, so is your blood from that paper cut. So's the urine in the toilet.

Ah but what of those who are born with defects? Should their life be thrown away as well. They are incapable of caring for themselves. Babies are born all the time that will need a "host" to live for their entire lives. Then the process repeats itself at around age 60+

There's a reason the death rate for children dropped dramatically, its because many babies who would not live do.

[Maelstrom51]

Could someone please tell me why Americans want to enable people to make choices and NOT live with the consequences?

Sex is a choice. You can choose not to take part in the REPRODUCTIVE act of our species. If you CHOOSE to do it, you must live with the consequences.

Why in the world would you support abortion? Help someone understand the LOGIC.

(Excluding rape, I am talking about consensual sex obviously)

If we have a way to not have consequences, why should we have the consequences?
If there was an instant cure for lung cancer, would you tell smokers with lung cancer "nope, you smoked, you have to live with the consequences and not take this instant cure!"
Think about it.

[Purlina]

So women should only have sex if they are willing to have a baby?

Sorry guys, have fun not getting any sex...

[phenom568]

This isn't about individual people condoning abortion. That's a personal issue. This is about the government determining your personal opinion for you. And it's wrong.

How, the only thing the government can be accused of here is providing you with information, visual information. And you need information to make the correct decision.

Besides an Opinion is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

[Bakis]

Not really surprised it is a southern christian state either.

[Deleted]

So women should only have sex if they are willing to have a baby?

Sorry guys, have fun not getting any sex...

For many who take this stance, I imagine it is already the case and not by their choice, if you'll pardon the pun.

[phenom568]

If we have a way to not have consequences, why should we have the consequences?
If there was an instant cure for lung cancer, would you tell smokers with lung cancer "nope, you smoked, you have to live with the consequences and not take this instant cure!"
Think about it.

Smokers would have to pay for the treatment which is all this law is doing really. Making people pay financially for their decision.

For clarity: In your analogy "You shouldn't have to pay for the cure because its the tobacco company's fault you got sick"

[Purlina]

How, the only thing the government can be accused of here is providing you with information, visual information. And you need information to make the correct decision.

Besides an Opinion is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

Information needed to make the correct decision...? It's not like your showing them anything they don't know about.

[Vladinator]

Somehow I think this may contribute to the thread in some way, about abortion and life. Just give it a watch. Mind that it's for adults, don't watch if you aren't allowed to listen to cursing... but assuming you play WoW I don't see a big of a deal of posting it here I guess.

[Deleted]

Smokers would have to pay for the treatment which is all this law is doing really. Making people pay financially for their decision.

What about people who started smoking before we had enough science to see the risks behind the habit? What about the people who did not have a choice in whether they partook of the sex/rape that ended up in getting them pregnant?

It must be interesting to live in a black and white world.

[DSRilk]

Could someone please tell me why Americans want to enable people to make choices and NOT live with the consequences?

You are assuming that pregnancy implies the lifelong responsibility to raise a child, which in this country, it doesn't. And if you're talking about a moral responsibility outside those mandated by the courts, I disagree. Your responsibility is to take care of the pregnancy. Either to end it or see it through as best you can. Honestly, if there's any "personal responsibility" in my mind, it comes at the point that you decide to have the child. At that point the personal responsibility is to raise it; and interestingly enough, many people here are instead advocating abandoning THAT personal responsibility in favor of adoption. While an argument could be made that giving away a baby is the responsible thing to do, that would only be true if all babies got adopted, which is not the case. It also presupposes that all babies will be born to mothers who can and want to take care of them, which is also not the case.

In the end though, this is a moral question, and we disagree on what is moral when it comes to this topic, and that's not going to change. Luckily we (theoretically) live in a country where I cannot (and should not imo), force you to live by my moral code any more than you can or should force anyone else to live by yours. Morality is a concept unique to the individual, even when it mainly comes from a source external to that person. The conviction that ones morality must apply to all others is what has been used as a tool to fuel some of the worst conflicts in the history of our species.

[Maelstrom51]

Smokers would have to pay for the treatment which is all this law is doing really. Making people pay financially for their decision.

Abortions already cost money.

[Ghostie]

I really couldn't give 2 shits about women's rights in abortions until men have the right to sever themselves (financially and parentally) to a child before it's born.

Tell you what buddy boy, you keep it in your pants then women won't get pregnant by you. You absolutely know, we all do, that no form of birth control except abstinence is 100% guaranteed, yet if you take that chance and a baby is born because of it you want to abandon this person because you don't have personal responsibility for your actions. You better hope for your sake and any breeding you might do that abortion is an option or you and your precious money will part ways because of it.

No man can tell me what I can or cannot do with my body. Period. This 'law' is offensive at best and highly abusive to women who have to make the difficult choice to have an abortion or not.

[Bakis]

How, the only thing the government can be accused of here is providing you with information, visual information. And you need information to make the correct decision.

Besides an Opinion is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

Hmm what information does it give you that you dont already know? Please explain it.
You know you are pregnent, you need to get shown you are pregnant?

This is simply a law lobbied by religious groups, it has NOTHING to do with information.
Dont know how you can even come to the conclusion.