1. #1
    Stood in the Fire rethea's Avatar
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    Haste still better than other secondaries for destro?

    To start off, I'm fully aware that haste is simming significantly higher than it "should be" because of the recent change to simulationcraft that factors in the way that doomguards scale with haste without also factoring in its poor AI.
    However, this is my character: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ethea/advanced
    I'm currently at 2663 haste, well above the 2527 cap for goblins.

    I'm running these sims with full buffs, 25k iterations, 350 seconds, 10% variance.
    As expected, my stat priorities with the doomguard are:
    Haste 1.7459 Mastery 1.6074 Crit 1.5633
    Completely removing the doomguard from my priority list still results in:
    Haste 1.6715 Mastery 1.6519 Crit 1.6152

    This confuses me, as everything I can find tells me that going past haste thresholds is bad, but the sims I've run show that adding haste is still a dps increase AND that reforging down to 2527 is a decrease. Anyone have some insight?
    To quote the great sage Ook Ook, "you can take the derk out of the jib, but you shouldn't put the jib in the derk."

  2. #2
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Pretty sure it is Haste>Crit>Mastery untill your like uber geared, then it's Haste>crit=mastery
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  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire rethea's Avatar
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    I've heard 400+ as the point at which mastery > everything else, which I'm not terribly far from, but anyway, EJ's official recommendation is:
    Reforging is essentially following the stat priority rules above to reach certain caps and maximize the benefit we recieve from secondary stats. For example, for the stat priorities in iLvl 401 - 416 gear, we do the following (in order):

    1. Reforge crit then mastery to hit until cap, getting as close to 1742 as possible.

    2. Reforge crit then mastery to haste until 2681 rating, getting as close as possible.

    3. Reforge left over stats to mastery, including any hit or haste over the mentioned caps.
    Also: reforging to the haste threshold and then dumping into mastery is recommended all over these forums, which certainly isn't true at all gear level, including <398.
    Anyway, I'm still wondering if anyone knows why this is thrown around so much when my numbers don't seem to support it.
    Last edited by rethea; 2012-01-31 at 10:47 PM.
    To quote the great sage Ook Ook, "you can take the derk out of the jib, but you shouldn't put the jib in the derk."

  4. #4
    I'm finding your results odd both because crit isn't simming higher than mastery when you have VPLC and like you said, haste is much higher than it should be. I'm gonna mess around with your toon in simcraft a bit and come back here.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-31 at 11:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rethea View Post
    Also: reforging to the haste threshold and then dumping into mastery is recommended all over these forums, which certainly isn't true at all gear level, including <398.
    Anyway, I'm still wondering if anyone knows why this is thrown around so much when my numbers don't seem to support it.
    Mastery has consistently simmed higher than me since mid-firelands, taking a step back for crit only once I got VPLC and then going back up once I replaced VPLC. For the majority of cases those recommendations hold true, but there will always be exceptions which is why I and others always recommend simming yourself to get more accurate results if you are one of those who do have different weights for whatever reason.

    That being said, I'm simming you at:

    Crit: 1.5907
    Haste: 1.6334
    Mastery: 1.7257

    And that's with doomguard in the priority list so in reality haste is probably just below crit. I don't know what's causing the discrepancy but you're always free to do whatever you like if your sims support it.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire rethea's Avatar
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    I'm curious what parameters you're using to get those weights for my character. I've never had mastery pull above haste, even though logic says it should. And I found that the fact that crit wasn't higher after my last few upgrades to be strange as well. I was simming haste > crit > mastery until very recently.
    To quote the great sage Ook Ook, "you can take the derk out of the jib, but you shouldn't put the jib in the derk."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rethea View Post
    I'm curious what parameters you're using to get those weights for my character. I've never had mastery pull above haste, even though logic says it should. And I found that the fact that crit wasn't higher after my last few upgrades to be strange as well. I was simming haste > crit > mastery until very recently.
    I did those at 350 seconds with 10% variance like you did since I was curious about those results in particular. The reason haste is still better than crit for you probably lies in the fact that you don't have ICM.

  7. #7
    I'm under the impression that it's:
    at 390s ilvl Haste(till 2589) > Mastery = Crit > Moar Haste (Extra tick of immolate ++Conflag)
    at 400s ilvl Haste(till 2681) > Mastery > Crit > Moar Haste (Extra tick of immolate under Bloodlust)

    The reason being that until those ilvls you can't hit those haste caps w/o sacrificing too much int (through gemming) or hit.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire rethea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gakpad View Post
    I did those at 350 seconds with 10% variance like you did since I was curious about those results in particular. The reason haste is still better than crit for you probably lies in the fact that you don't have ICM.
    Yeah, I get that, but you're still simming mastery above haste for me, which I can't reproduce.
    To quote the great sage Ook Ook, "you can take the derk out of the jib, but you shouldn't put the jib in the derk."

  9. #9
    My two cents:

    Simming my own toon as destro (ilvl398, legendary, N WoU+N VPLC combo, 2715 haste, 900+ crit, 1.2k mastery) also gives me the same stat weights as OP.
    Haste > Crit = Mastery

    One of the reason might be that doomguards have been changed to scale with haste, thus slightly increasing the value of haste.

    Also, something that i've noticed from playing destro for the past few weeks. Since the change to the ISF buff to 20 seconds, more often that not I find myself casting non-backdrafted incinerates. This is even more evident if you have IOTCM or during lust/hero phases, where your backdraft stacks get consumed so quickly that it drastically increases the amount of non-backdrafted incinerates during the whole course of the fight. This reason combined with the fact that DG scales with haste now probably would increase the value of haste slightly, like what some people, including myself, have simmed.

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