U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[Acewipe]

Stopping needed environmental regulations in order to help business is not considered a liberal or progressive policy decision.

Services provided by the federal government has always been part of the conservative principle because there are certain things that gov't simply does better and it helps promote business growth or helps to protect liberties.

It's big, complex, and very important to get right and so he has refused to approve it until all of the major details are worked out. Proponents of it were trying to get it passed with huge unknowns still there, which would be pretty irresponsible.

Big disagreement as to whether CO2 regs are actually needed.

Most conservatives fell that the gov. should not provide nearly the services that they do- frankly most entitlements make me want to puke. The pipeline did not have any significant unknowns- apart from those invented by its opponents. Also, Obama has appointed very liberal SC justices.

Obama is not some victim of lies and paranoia- Obama is a liberal- and that is what I expected and why I want him out.

[Willeonge]

Big disagreement as to whether CO2 regs are actually needed.

Most conservatives fell that the gov. should not provide nearly the services that they do- frankly most entitlements make me want to puke. The pipeline did not have any significant unknowns- apart from those invented by its opponents. Also, Obama has appointed very liberal SC justices.

Obama is not some victim of lies and paranoia- Obama is a liberal- and that is what I expected and why I want him out.

He replaced liberal justices with liberal justices on a conservative court, what's your point.

And Obama is only liberal, to some. You are further to the right that he is, thus he is liberal. He is further to the right than I am, thus he is not a liberal.

[ptwonline]

Big disagreement as to whether CO2 regs are actually needed.

Most conservatives fell that the gov. should not provide nearly the services that they do- frankly most entitlements make me want to puke. The pipeline did not have any significant unknowns- apart from those invented by its opponents. Also, Obama has appointed very liberal SC justices.

Obama is not some victim of lies and paranoia- Obama is a liberal- and that is what I expected and why I want him out.

The only disagreement about CO2 regulations are from big oil, those who big oil pays, and those who listen to the sources that big oil pays.

You may disagree with most of the entitlements, but core services provided by the federal gov't is still a part of conservative values. The biggest one of all being defense.

And what "liberal" SC justices has Obama appointed? Sotomayor? Kagan? LOL. Those two are evidence for just how far to the right the SC has drifted. They are actually a lot like Obama: pretty centrist but considered "liberal" only because the right has moved so far to the right. Remember Justice John Paul Stevens? He was a liberal pillar in the Supreme Court, which is odd since he went in as a moderate conservative. He didn't really change. The SC moved to the right and kept moving to the right until a moderate like himself was now on the far left. That's pretty much where Kagan and Sotomayor are now: traditionally they would be considered moderate or even slightly conservative but because everything else has difted to the right, they are "liberals". Just like Obama.

[Acewipe]

The only disagreement about CO2 regulations are from big oil, those who big oil pays, and those who listen to the sources that big oil pays.


And what "liberal" SC justices has Obama appointed? Sotomayor? Kagan? LOL.

CO2 costs too much to be regulated (as in, it will increase your electric bills a lot).

Calling Sotomayor and Kagan moderates is a freaking joke. It looks like our problem is that you perceive everything that is not socialist/communist as moderate or conservative.

You can call people whatever you want- but as far as the current political landscape in America- Obama and his peeps are very liberal. Whether that is the result of America being slanted to the right or otherwise.

My only hope is that America (and the dems) continue to move toward the right wing. That way, eventually both parties may be able to agree on some things and get some shit done.

---------- Post added 2012-03-09 at 02:44 PM ----------

Romney's plan was based on the Heritage Foundation's plan. I'm sure you're aware of the Heritage Foundation.

Gingrich championed it, wrote on op-ed about it in 2007.

You may be right that it's not conservative, but what it means if that's the case, is that the people railing against it right now, aren't conservatives either. Not Romney, not Gingrich.

I think it's freaking hilarious that the largest outcry of Obama being a socialist was Obamacare, conveniently ignoring the fact that Republicans LOVED the idea until then. Now who's socialist again? (This wasn't directed at you, Acewipe, just the general population that believes this kind of crap.)

I agree- I think the plan is stupid (and I think Gingrich is stupid)...but my reasons are a little different.

Obamacare is unconstitutional because it is a federal mandate- if the mandate was not their I would have little dislike for it (apart from below)

My reasons for disliking it are simple:
1. It reduces physician pay by reducing the procedures that primary care physicians can do and reduces primary care payouts.
2. Increases taxes on employer paid health plans
3. Increases regulatory burden on everyone (big ass new law causes a lot of compliance costs)

[Willeonge]

CO2 costs too much to be regulated (as in, it will increase your electric bills a lot).

Calling Sotomayor and Kagan moderates is a freaking joke. It looks like our problem is that you perceive everything that is not socialist/communist as moderate or conservative.

You can call people whatever you want- but as far as the current political landscape in America- Obama and his peeps are very liberal. Whether that is the result of America being slanted to the right or otherwise.

My only hope is that America (and the dems) continue to move toward the right wing. That way, eventually both parties may be able to agree on some things and get some shit done.

No, just no.

The far right that took over the Republican party and annihilated any form of moderates in their is the issue. You look at a moderate Senator from Maine who is retiring because of that very fact. They move further and further to the right and demand the Democrats meet them in the middle, so that what was once the middle is now right.

[ptwonline]

CO2 costs too much to be regulated (as in, it will increase your electric bills a lot).

Calling Sotomayor and Kagan moderates is a freaking joke. It looks like our problem is that you perceive everything that is not socialist/communist as moderate or conservative.

I'd laugh at your opinion if the consequences of that opinion could not end up so tragically.

You can call people whatever you want- but as far as the current political landscape in America- Obama and his peeps are very liberal. Whether that is the result of America being slanted to the right or otherwise.

Obama is not very liberal even by current American standards. Well, to be more precise: he has not governed like a liberal. In many ways he's just a Bush third term, except with more dignity and less stupidity.

My only hope is that America (and the dems) continue to move toward the right wing. That way, eventually both parties may be able to agree on some things and get some shit done.

You're dreaming. If the Dems shift to the right the conservatives will just keep going deeper down the rabbit hole. We know this because that's what has been happening for the past 20 years.

[Acewipe]

I'd laugh at your opinion if the consequences of that opinion could not end up so tragically.

What tragedy? Global warming? lol- An increase in my electric bill is more important to me.

[Dacien]

What tragedy? Global warming? lol- An increase in my electric bill is more important to me.

Yeah, I'm on board with you Ace.

This is just how people work: you have an overall issue, right? Most people don't care about this issue. So, the only way you're going to get most people to care about your issue is if you convince those people that they have a personal stake in it. So suddenly it isn't just that your air isn't clean, your whole fucking world and everyone on it is going to die if we don't do something! You hear phrases like "tragic consequences", "catastrophic results", things like that. It's particularly effective against people that have a natural inclination towards the issue in the first place.

These people (and I'm not necessarily talking about you here, ptwonline) care so much about their issue, they will kill the economy, waste hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on trying to force a solar market, raise prices on already struggling Americans, a whole slew of genuine tragic consequences, just to promote their issue.

[emulsion]

You're dreaming. If the Dems shift to the right the conservatives will just keep going deeper down the rabbit hole. We know this because that's what has been happening for the past 20 years.

I'd be curious to know what that conservative rabbit hole means to everyone reading this, actually. To me - hopeful, silly me - it means Jeffersonian Republicanism, aka classical liberalism.

[emulsion]

I hate to Godwin this, but this was a championed philosophy of Goebbels in Nazi Germany. Yell loud enough, and long enough, and you will enact change, regardless of the collateral damage. Both sides have done this(neo-cons with the whole war on terror thing, environmentalists with the global warming thing).

It's why I know global warming is happening, but can't trust the predictions. They're predictions are just too radical, IMO.

Any scientist worth her weight wouldn't dwell too long on intangibles when there's too many variables. The Dems' love affair with electric cars, bamboo baskets and "wild spaces" is all based on emotion and speculative, impractical technology. The science has to mature before we'll be able to dig in and fix things.

This is coming from someone who studied ecology in college and considers himself a devoted conservationist. I've met a lot of knuckleheads along the way with their high ideals about saving the earth. I have my own. But the term conservation admits what many environmentalists don't want to admit: that every bit of nature is touched by man. There is no wilderness. Let's stop pulling heart strings like there is and get to managing things better.

It's also become a hobby of mine to observe and mentally record the awestruck global warming catastrophism from the mouths of self-proclaimed non-religious people. They couldn't deliver a better modern version of the end times Biblical oral tradition if they tried.

[Lenonis]

My only hope is that America (and the dems) continue to move toward the right wing. That way, eventually both parties may be able to agree on some things and get some shit done.

We'd get just as much done if the Republicans moved more to the left.

The question, of course, is which party has the right answers. I can get on board with more right leaning economic policy (in some respects) however I will NOT be moved further to the right on social issues. This country is already got its head up its ass when it comes to social issues.

I have no idea how republicans can champion small government in one sentence and then talk about outlawing abortion, gays, and anyone other than christians in the next. That is not small government.

[Acewipe]

We'd get just as much done if the Republicans moved more to the left.

The question, of course, is which party has the right answers. I can get on board with more right leaning economic policy (in some respects) however I will NOT be moved further to the right on social issues. This country is already got its head up its ass when it comes to social issues.

I have no idea how republicans can champion small government in one sentence and then talk about outlawing abortion, gays, and anyone other than christians in the next. That is not small government.

Agree completely. I am very liberal on almost all social issues. I just can't deal with the dems trying to steal my money!!!

[Deleted]

in my opinion: american politics is just another hollywood-made production. Just an opinion.


And I believe Obama deserves the second term.

[emulsion]

Well, there is, but what's left of it we don't give two shits about(see useless islands in the Bahamas for example).

I don't make chemical distinctions when I say there is no wilderness. We've touched every inch of the planet, disturbed every biological system. The preservationists would have you believe that biological systems could be intact if... which is wrong headed.

I hope you weren't referring to me on this.

Absolutely not. Referring to ptw's "tragic consequences" and the countless multitudes that also revel in agnostic phantasms.

[stabetha]

in my opinion: american politics is just another hollywood-made production. Just an opinion.


And I believe Obama deserves the second term.

for the last three and a half years Obama has had to worry about getting reelected if he gets another four years then he goes off the deep end in his pursuit to destroy America.

---------- Post added 2012-03-09 at 06:21 PM ----------

We'd get just as much done if the Republicans moved more to the left.

The question, of course, is which party has the right answers. I can get on board with more right leaning economic policy (in some respects) however I will NOT be moved further to the right on social issues. This country is already got its head up its ass when it comes to social issues.

I have no idea how republicans can champion small government in one sentence and then talk about outlawing abortion, gays, and anyone other than christians in the next. That is not small government.

I hate to be the one to tell you this but only a very few extremists want to outright outlaw abortion, no one wants to outlaw gays (that's just ridiculous), and as for outlawing other religions it's the opposite the left has outlawed Christianity.

[STLRepresent618]

I love war! Kony for president!

[Goundin]

I think Obama will win it only because the Republicans are shooting their selves in the foot. Obama will win simply by not trying. These are bad times we live in, and Obama isn't making them any better.

[Willeonge]

for the last three and a half years Obama has had to worry about getting reelected if he gets another four years then he goes off the deep end in his pursuit to destroy America.

---------- Post added 2012-03-09 at 06:21 PM ----------

I hate to be the one to tell you this but only a very few extremists want to outright outlaw abortion, no one wants to outlaw gays (that's just ridiculous), and as for outlawing other religions it's the opposite the left has outlawed Christianity.

Yes no one wants to outlaw abortion..except maybe all those states enacting all those abortion laws.

[stabetha]

Yes no one wants to outlaw abortion..except maybe all those states enacting all those abortion laws.

there is a difference between outlawing and regulating.

[Sunseeker]

there is a difference between outlawing and regulating.

Abortion is highly regulated.