U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[TechnoKronic]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...s-critics.html

this was a good read.

[ptwonline]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...s-critics.html

I agree with much of what was stated in this opinion piece, but I also feel that the author really glossed over a lot of things in order to maintain his narrative.

He also ignores that this "long strategy" would likely be a failure if the Republican candidates were not so terrible, simply because the misinformation against Obama WORKS.

[Faery]

This country would be better off if everything the President tries to do isn't always blocked. Also, personally, I'd like to see him slide a bit to the left politically. It seems that since the Republicans have moved drastically to the right (it's like the 1950s again) the Democrats have had to follow suit and move into the middle, which gets us nowhere. Obama is definitely better than anything the Republicans can provide, but I would still like to see the Democratic party move back to where it belongs....the left.

I totally agree.

[Solzan Nemesis]

This country would be better off if everything the President tries to do isn't always blocked. Also, personally, I'd like to see him slide a bit to the left politically. It seems that since the Republicans have moved drastically to the right (it's like the 1950s again) the Democrats have had to follow suit and move into the middle, which gets us nowhere. Obama is definitely better than anything the Republicans can provide, but I would still like to see the Democratic party move back to where it belongs....the left.

I also agree

[Bakis]

there is no study of prisoners that I will ever believe. They are *CRIMINALS* they will lie and cheat and stab you to get out of things. Why do you put so much stock into prisoners? You believe them? Would you believe some guy that killed your mom for her purse? That is who this study is studying. Criminals.

Guess that you rule out children from being trustworthy as well or someone who tell something that happened while having alcohol in the body.

[Acewipe]

This country would be better off if everything the President tries to do isn't always blocked. Also, personally, I'd like to see him slide a bit to the left politically. It seems that since the Republicans have moved drastically to the right (it's like the 1950s again) the Democrats have had to follow suit and move into the middle, which gets us nowhere. Obama is definitely better than anything the Republicans can provide, but I would still like to see the Democratic party move back to where it belongs....the left.

That is a joke. With Obama the dems moved drastically to the left.

[Sunseeker]

That is a joke. With Obama the dems moved drastically to the left.

Considering the Democrats are traditionally right of center anyway.

[ptwonline]

That is a joke. With Obama the dems moved drastically to the left.

Uh, no. Just because they say so on Fox News doesn't make it so. Obama has governed essentially as a traditional moderate conservative. A lot of similarities to Clinton actually (who was also considered to have governed in a moderate conservative manner).

It's been pretty widely noted too. Here's an opinion piece from the Washington Post. There are many others like it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...iHP_story.html

[Ausr]

That is a joke. With Obama the dems moved drastically to the left.

Some democrats are annoyed that he isn't left at all as president's tend to go moderate when they're actually in office so they can compromise.

[Dacien]

Uh, no. Just because they say so on Fox News doesn't make it so. Obama has governed essentially as a traditional moderate conservative. A lot of similarities to Clinton actually (who was also considered to have governed in a moderate conservative manner).

It's been pretty widely noted too. Here's an opinion piece from the Washington Post. There are many others like it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...iHP_story.html

That was a very liberal op-ed piece from quite a liberal newspaper.

[Willeonge]

[Dacien]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/us2012.php

Not a huge fan of political compass. There're numerous criticisms, a big one being that they don't factor in the political differences between America and Europe. Just looking at that diagram I can tell they have their head on backwards.

[obdigore]

Not a huge fan of political compass. There're numerous criticisms, a big one being that they don't factor in the political differences between America and Europe. Just looking at that diagram I can tell they have their head on backwards.

Meh. For the US you can pretty much just cut off the entire left half of the grid and go from there.

[Willeonge]

Not a huge fan of political compass. There're numerous criticisms, a big one being that they don't factor in the political differences between America and Europe. Just looking at that diagram I can tell they have their head on backwards.

Yes, this country is so far to the right there is no real left. To even claim that the Democrats are left is silly. Any semblance of the left in this country was removed years ago.

[ptwonline]

That was a very liberal op-ed piece from quite a liberal newspaper.

All the conservative sources toe the "Obama is a liberal extremist" line, but it simply is not true.

Talking about Obama's conservatism
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...141718516.html

Talking about how Obama had to be a moderate conservative mirroring how Nixon had to be a moderate liberal
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Column...xon.aspx#page1

This one is a blog entry but lists a lot of the specifics about Obama's conservatism
http://doubledippolitics.com/2012/01...rate-clothing/

Just read almost any article by Paul Krugman, railing about Obama's conservatism.

[Acewipe]

Uh, no. Just because they say so on Fox News doesn't make it so. Obama has governed essentially as a traditional moderate conservative. A lot of similarities to Clinton actually (who was also considered to have governed in a moderate conservative manner).

It's been pretty widely noted too. Here's an opinion piece from the Washington Post. There are many others like it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...iHP_story.html

All I can say is that just because the washington post says it does not make it true.

Look- I am an independent and in the last election I voted about 60/40 republican to democrat. From an american perspective all of the policies that Obama has championed (universal healthcare, increasing government control over businesses, increasing environmental regulations, increasing taxes, etc.) are all liberal and therefore far to the left of where people in the center and to the right (in America) would want to be.

[Lenonis]

All this left/right nonsense is pointless because it's a contextual argument and everyone has a different context.

"Obama is extreme left!" Extreme left compared to who? Nixon? Lincoln? Hitler? Ghandi?

Obama is more to the left than say George Bush, but he's certainly not anywhere near as far to the left as he could be. He's way more centrist than he campaigned on, which is why a lot of progressive types are upset...they were sold a candidate that would move the country quite far to the left, and they got someone who just nudged it a bit.

[ptwonline]

All I can say is that just because the washington post says it does not make it true.

Look- I am an independent and in the last election I voted about 60/40 republican to democrat. From an american perspective all of the policies that Obama has championed (universal healthcare, increasing government control over businesses, increasing environmental regulations, increasing taxes, etc.) are all liberal and therefore far to the left of where people in the center and to the right (in America) would want to be.

You DO know that Obamacare is a CONSERVATIVE health care plan, right? He based it off Romney's (Republican) plan and the Republican plan put forth in the 90's.

Obama has governed mostly as a moderate conservative. The problem is that over the last 30 years--and especially over the last 10 years--the conservatives calling the shots in the Republican Party have shifted dramatically to the right. They would see the actual Reagan as a liberal (as opposed to this imaginary Reagan icon they worship.)

One of Obama's biggest problems with his base is actually trying to establish that he has some liberal/progressive cred. For most of the past 6 months or so he has been trying to patch that up. Most of his public defenders have to talk about why Obama HAD to be conservative to get anything done, or how he is more liberal than liberals/progressives think because they mostly see him continuing or enacting Bush/conservative policies.

On fiscal, social, regulatory, environmental, foreign policy, and personal rights/domestic security issues the liberals/progressives have been sorely disappointed with Obama because they think he is too centrist. They are right--he has been fairly centrist.

"Universal Healthcare" was a conservative plan.

"Increasing government control over business" is an old canard. His admin is putting in about the same amount of rules as other administrations. ALL admins add rules on business because new industries, new products, and new ways of cheating/manipulating are always found.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...-business.html

"Increasing environmental regulations" - are you serious? He is under the thumb of big business and lobbyists and has stripped away a lot of protections/oversights.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ental-promises

"Increasing taxes" only partly true. He did add some very specific taxes--like on tobacco and tanning salons--and there are some taxes that will kick in 2013 and beyond like for health care if you choose not to get coverage. But he has also extended the Bush tax cuts and put in other significant tax cuts as well.

---------- Post added 2012-03-09 at 07:03 PM ----------

All this left/right nonsense is pointless because it's a contextual argument and everyone has a different context.

"Obama is extreme left!" Extreme left compared to who? Nixon? Lincoln? Hitler? Ghandi?

Obama is more to the left than say George Bush, but he's certainly not anywhere near as far to the left as he could be. He's way more centrist than he campaigned on, which is why a lot of progressive types are upset...they were sold a candidate that would move the country quite far to the left, and they got someone who just nudged it a bit.

Actually, Obama campaigned as a moderate in terms of policy. He had to because he didn't want to scare off independents and moderate conservatives who could be too easily frightened because he was--shall we say--an atypical Presidential candidate.

What he DID do though is campaign on "hope" and "change" and that allowed people to project their own desires onto to him. So progressives thought that they were getting a much more progressive candidate than what he was really saying that he would be based upon his policies. For example, he always maintained that he supports marriage as betwen a man and a woman, and now the gay community is mad because he didn't do a lot more to make gay marriage legal. Furthermore, because there is conservative opposition to what he wanted (even when Dems had control many of them were actually conservatives) he had to compromise and thus go even more to the right than what he had planned to do, disappointing his supporters further.

[Acewipe]

You DO know that Obamacare is a CONSERVATIVE health care plan, right? He based it off Romney's (Republican) plan and the Republican plan put forth in the 90's.


"Increasing government control over business" is an old canard. His admin is putting in about the same amount of rules as other administrations. ALL admins add rules on business because new industries, new products, and new ways of cheating/manipulating are always found.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...-business.html

"Increasing environmental regulations" - are you serious? He is under the thumb of big business and lobbyists and has stripped away a lot of protections/oversights.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ental-promises

Well- Obama caused carbon dioxide to become within the purview of the EPA regs- which is massively increasing costs on energy producers.

Just because Obamacare was based on Romney's plan does not mean that it is conservative! Universal healthcare is not a conservative principle. Also, Romney's plan was a State plan- which, if you understood American Constitutional principles, you would know that States have far more leverage when mandating actions by their citizens (that would be unconstitutional for the feds).

For example:
Obama has opposed domestic oil, gas, and coal production, and new pipelines. Obama has increased regulations on all business owners regarding reporting and management of their health insurance plans.


Look- I don't care that the vary leftists in the dem party are sad because Obama has not been able to turn the US into a completely socialist country- Obama is still a leftist as far as the general population is concerned.

[ptwonline]

Well- Obama caused carbon dioxide to become within the purview of the EPA regs- which is massively increasing costs on energy producers.

He didn't "cause it". The EPA went ahead and did it because CO2 is a pollutant causing issues. The government agreed and didn't block it.

But on the other hand Obama has also kowtowed to business pressure to stop the EPA from implementing other things, such as rules on smog (the ground-level ozone). Stopping needed environmental regulations in order to help business is not considered a liberal or progressive policy decision.

Just because Obamacare was based on Romney's plan does not mean that it is conservative! Universal healthcare is not a conservative principle. Also, Romney's plan was a State plan- which, if you understood American Constitutional principles, you would know that States have far more leverage when mandating actions by their citizens (that would be unconstitutional for the feds).

Services provided by the federal government has always been part of the conservative principle because there are certain things that gov't simply does better and it helps promote business growth or helps to protect liberties. And the health care plan is not just Romney's. It's was Bob Dole's plan in the 90's when Clinton was President. Dole was a leading Republican and a conservative.

For example:
Obama has opposed domestic oil, gas, and coal production, and new pipelines. Obama has increased regulations on all business owners regarding reporting and management of their health insurance plans.

I don't know if you've noticed, but some of those industries did indeed need more regulations (or at least better enforcement of existing regulations). Letting the industries get away with what they wanted either due to deregulation or lax enforcement was literally killing people. As for the pipelines (I assume you mean the Keystone XL pipeline), Obama has only blocked the fast-tracking of it. It's big, complex, and very important to get right and so he has refused to approve it until all of the major details are worked out. Proponents of it were trying to get it passed with huge unknowns still there, which would be pretty irresponsible.

Look- I don't care that the vary leftists in the dem party are sad because Obama has not been able to turn the US into a completely socialist country- Obama is still a leftist as far as the general population is concerned.

Obama didn't campaign on strong left policy and has not governed with strong left policy. Basically we're at the stage where almost everything against him is lies and paranoia.