IMO Bounty Hunters and Smugglers shouldn't start with a faction.

[Kharli]

Smuggler -->> <<-- Imperial Agent.
Trooper -->>> <<-- Bounty Hunter.
soo.. yeh
imo, i think it's just taken from the movies, plus I mean ..<.< Bounty hunting is Illegal in the republic. they use normal troopers to get people!
as for the empire, yeh sure just replace the BH with a Trooper as well and your done, oh wait that takes away the BH from Star wars, <.< that don't work..yeh you get the point? BH and trooper=the same thing heavy duty class while smuggler and imperial agent is the same.( I played 1 hour of the game at a friends house, cause I don't own the game currently, but I see were bioware ment with all this.)

[Valeron]

I actually would have liked them to start off with everyone as a "neutral". And through the story choices (light/dark, whatever) have that determine what faction they end up with. It would make those choices more meaningful in my opinion.

[torftw]

Huh? A Bounty Hunter hunts people and items in risky situations. A Smuggler moves items/objects/people in and out of risky situations. A Imperial Agent deals in Intelligence and assassinations for the Empire. How is a Smuggler even close to a Imperial Agent if he decides to do work for the Empire? He's not a assassin and if he dealt in Intelligence he would sell it to the highest bidder, not exclusive the the Empire in any way. A Bounty Hunter is far closer to a assassin, but if he chooses not to kill does that make him a smuggler? WTF is he smuggling? His conscience?

Why does a Smuggler have to be a thug if he works for the Empire? Does this "thug" as you put only choose darkside options then? So light side is out?

I'm really starting to think your trolling me here....

Now it is my turn to ask if you have played the IA story line. An imperial agent "is a sanitation worker, we clean up after the military and the sith, we do the jobs no one else will", not just spy on people for information. If someone would smuggle for the empire it would be an imperial agent. If the empire needed something smuggled they would get their agents to do it.

And you keep trying to pick apart small things in my arguments but still have not actually explained why a star wars smuggler (the han and mal archetype) would ever fight for the empire. Remember this post is about having an empire side of the story for a smuggler.

[flarecde]

Troopers could exist for both factions too. You encounter plenty of Imperial troopers, but you can't be one!

[philefluxx]

Now it is my turn to ask if you have played the IA story line. An imperial agent "is a sanitation worker, we clean up after the military and the sith, we do the jobs no one else will", not just spy on people for information. If someone would smuggle for the empire it would be an imperial agent. If the empire needed something smuggled they would get their agents to do it.

And you keep trying to pick apart small things in my arguments but still have not actually explained why a star wars smuggler (the han and mal archetype) would ever fight for the empire. Remember this post is about having an empire side of the story for a smuggler.

Here is a definition of a Smuggler via Wookipedia
A smuggler was someone who engaged in the clandestine shipment of goods or persons to prevent taxation or some other impediment. The goods shipped were often highly illegal or banned in some sectors.

Now if I, a reputable Imperial General, need something brought out of Republic controlled space and brought to me in Empire control space who would I rather employ?

I could hire a Bounty Hunter in hopes they are not on the Republics Most wanted list and can actually get close enough to my target.

I could hire a Imperial Agent in hopes they can disguise themselves enough to get close enough. I also need to worry if they get caught that it can now be traced back to the Empire, but more importantly me.

Or I could hire a Smuggler. A casual Joe to most with feline grace who can get in and out of Imperial or Republic controlled space without a hitch, because that is exactly what they do. Someone with no permanent ties or obligations to either faction.

So let me ask you this, why wouldn't the Empire hire a Smuggler? Why wouldnt a Smuggler work for the Empire if the price is right?

In fact, if my memory serves me, Han at one point attended the Imperial Academy.

[Kimarhri]

An Independent third faction of just Bounty Hunters and Smugglers would be interesting, although it would be kind of difficult to write and weave in storylines as it is now.

[Valeron]

An Independent third faction of just Bounty Hunters and Smugglers would be interesting, although it would be kind of difficult to write and weave in storylines as it is now.

They would have had to start from the beginning in the design phase of the game in order to put in a third faction. There is no way it can work now without a lot of redesign work.

[BeeSting]

I think it would be great if you pick your faction starting off but then if you earn enough light/dark points it can transfer your faction. So if you're a smuggler with a large amount of dark side points you'll be switched over to the empire. Still a smuggler but you've done enough bad that the other side now likes you. Would sure make it interesting with guild relations though if this happened.

[torftw]

Here is a definition of a Smuggler via Wookipedia
A smuggler was someone who engaged in the clandestine shipment of goods or persons to prevent taxation or some other impediment. The goods shipped were often highly illegal or banned in some sectors.

Now if I, a reputable Imperial General, need something brought out of Republic controlled space and brought to me in Empire control space who would I rather employ?

I could hire a Bounty Hunter in hopes they are not on the Republics Most wanted list and can actually get close enough to my target.

I could hire a Imperial Agent in hopes they can disguise themselves enough to get close enough. I also need to worry if they get caught that it can now be traced back to the Empire, but more importantly me.

Or I could hire a Smuggler. A casual Joe to most with feline grace who can get in and out of Imperial or Republic controlled space without a hitch, because that is exactly what they do. Someone with no permanent ties or obligations to either faction.

So let me ask you this, why wouldn't the Empire hire a Smuggler? Why wouldnt a Smuggler work for the Empire if the price is right?

In fact, if my memory serves me, Han at one point attended the Imperial Academy.

Yes han attended the imperial academy, to be a soldier, not an imperial smuggler. He turned to smuggling because he didn't like being an imperial soldier.

As for the example, great, you found a round about reason for an imperial person to hire a smuggler, but that is not what I am arguing against. I am arguing against an empire story for the smuggler class. Again, you still have not explained why a self respecting smuggler would fight for the empire. You just explained why a smuggler would do a private job for someone in the empire. And even if that item they needed taken was for the empire as a whole and not a personal thing, then they would use an agent. I was told several times in my agent story that if I was caught the empire would deny any involvement, and I would not be considered as part of the empire.

And even if they did, just for arguments sake, that smuggler would be stupid. Helping the empire might make the empire win, which would make it harder for that smuggler to continue to smuggle. If the empire is the only law left, then the smuggler goes against the empire as a whole and the punishment for breaking the law in the empire is much much worse than breaking the law in the republic.

We are talking about an imperial story for a smuggler player. How is it heroic in any way? How is it interesting in anyway? It makes no sense for a smuggler character to fight for the empire. Are there stupid npc smugglers out there that work for the empire? Sure. But they are stupid, and not heroic and not worth writing an entire story about.

I give up trying to convince you. You can keep thinking an imperial smuggler is cool, and you can keep getting disappointed when the writers don't write a good story for it.

[Valeron]

I think it would be great if you pick your faction starting off but then if you earn enough light/dark points it can transfer your faction. So if you're a smuggler with a large amount of dark side points you'll be switched over to the empire. Still a smuggler but you've done enough bad that the other side now likes you. Would sure make it interesting with guild relations though if this happened.

In EQ2 they had a faction betray questline. It was actually my favorite part of the whole game. I think it would be interesting to put in something like that for SWTOR.

[philefluxx]

Snip....

As I am also tired of trying to make you look beyond the little of the SW universe you know about, Ill leave you with this.


If a Bounty Hunter can have a story that involves work for the Empire while still upholding the sense of independence, why cant a Smuggler?

Also, Han was kicked out of the Academy after beating up a Officer who was abusing a captive Wookie, Chewbacca. He didn't turn to Smuggling, he was raised by pirates and was a smuggler before and after the Academy.

And to be honest, it makes far more sense for a Smuggler, someone known for breaking the law, to work for the Empire. Why would the republic want to continually hire outlaws?

[Migey]

I don't really think it's gamebreaking. I read that Smugglers are aligned with the Republic because their laws are slightly softer and less constricting, which gives Smugglers an easier time.

[Vehemence]

This has been on my mind as well, hivemind, almost was like hey aren't those 2 guys supposed to have a neutral faction since they're mostly in just for the cash? And then *poof*! I came across this thread

[torftw]

If a Bounty Hunter can have a story that involves work for the Empire while still upholding the sense of independence, why cant a Smuggler?

Because despite his independence he still fights for the empire. And would continue to have a job after the empire won. You can play the independence of a bounty hunter because he does it on the side. While doing heroic things for the empire he also does his own thing. A smuggler can not do that once the empire wins they simply would never use him and if he goes independent he becomes an enemy to the empire.

I really don't know how else I can explain, and maybe the fault is with me. But I have yet to see a story with a heroic character that loves freedom and being independent yet fights for an oppressive government. I'll believe you when I see it.

[Trollsbane]

I agree with What Torftw has to say. He brings up precise reasons why a smuggler would/should not be working for Imperials.

Further more, why stop with Bounty hunters and Smugglers. Troopers should also get to pick their own faction. So should Imperial Agents. I mean, they could just be SiS for Republic. Oh wait, i know why this stuff isn't allowed... We already cry too much over faction imbalance. So according to the people screaming at Bioware that they are responsible for the faction imbalance, we should further mess it up by allowing republic based (troopers and smugglers) the ability to become empire. Yeah...

Origionally, there were going to be 3 factions in TOR. The 3rd would have been an underground faction (Think Hutts, smugglers, Bounty Hunters, etc). They ended up scrapping it. We can wish they didn't all we want, but they did, and this is the game we have. And i think it's a great game and wasting time picking apart fruitless things is just silly.

Why didn't they create seperate stories for each AC? Why didn't they make Eve style space combat? Why didn't they make combat more like JKA, or FU? Why didn't they make it so I could choose my faction? Why didn't they make the game i wanted them to make; I can think of tons of things that are totally super awesome!

The game needed to be released. it didn't need more years being spent on being developed. And all of "your" amazing thoughts are not correct. Many people would hate those and pick it apart the same way "you" are doing here.

Smugglers should never ever be part of the empire.

[DarthDonut]

It makes sense from a movie perspective. Each class was based as closely as possible on movie character archetypes as possible. Boba Fett was clearly the bounty hunter archetype, and he worked a lot for the Empire, because they had the credits. Han Solo, being the smuggler archetype, worked almost exclusively for the Alliance. They wanted to keep the classic feel of the archetypes.

[Dendrek]

Why can't I be an Imperial Droid? There are droids in the game. What's stopping me from being one? What about a politician? They have those too, last I checked. Hell, I've come across several dozen different types of roles in my playthrough of this game. If they exist I should be able to play them!

The things you guys are missing is that you choose to be a Bounty Hunter that works for the Empire or a Smuggler that works for the Republic. Yes, they *can* work for the other faction; it is possible. But that's not what YOUR BH or Smuggler choose to do. Keep in mind that you chose a faction before you chose a class. You decided your allegiance before you decided your role. Or more accurately, that's what your character chose (or was forced into) before or while becoming their chosen profession.

So the idea that they should be able to be a part of an independent faction or that you should be able to choose your faction after choosing your class is inconsistent with the story that you chose to be a part of. You're focused way too much on the class itself and not on the story that it is involved in.

---------- Post added 2012-02-06 at 10:13 PM ----------

You can also think of it this way: There's a good chance these characters were born into that faction or around sympathizers of that faction, or else that they had a terrible experience with someone of the opposing faction at some point in their past. Where we are born and the experiences in our lives greatly influence (if not directly determine) what we will be later on in life and what groups we will associate ourselves with. An Imperial Agent, for example, studied and worked under the Empire before becoming an Agent; he didn't study at some independent academy and then later decide to work for the Empire. Perhaps something similar happened for the Bounty Hunter. Maybe he's always worked in Empire territory and so has all of his contacts within the Empire. A similar story could be true for the Smuggler. Maybe the Smuggler lived under Republic rule, and although he chose a life of crime, he can't help but maintain some sense of loyalty towards the Republic.

[Azhreia]

From a lore/story point of view all non force classes should have counterparts on the other side (as evidenced by the NPCs that exist) and even Jedi/Sith could at some point switch sides. The lore doesn't forbid/interfere with that at all. The problem is that it would have required a huge amount of work from Bioware to implement with little gains to show for it. For each class that they allowed on both sides they would have needed an entirely new class story (that's 50% more time invested in class stories just for the non-force users and even more if one wanted to allow Jedi/Sith to switch, too) and the gain ? Gameplay wise the classes are already mirrored so the only thing it would have added to the game would be some cosmetics and a different story line. Too little gain for the amount of work it would have required.

[Frozenbeef]

The reaosn you are working for the empire is because you want to please your sith overlords ^^ <3

[Koalachan]

Because the Republic was known to utilize smugglers to avoid Imperial Blockades, but openly abhorred assassinations and publicly didn't hire Bounty Hunters. The Empire on the other hand welcomed the mandos as the closest thing to allies due to their love of hunting Jedi.

Playing a BH you become a Mando, and the Mandos hated the republic and treated hunting Jedi as the Greatest prize.