Is anyone getting signals about how they are going on with the buf issues in 10mans?

[Deleted]

Currently we do struggle to get as much bufs as possible but it appears that whatever you do, you must be extremely lucky, or have a 25man roster that cherry picks players to have a 10man with all bufs.

And that means, also all bufs of the maximum capacity, e.g. 4%+ spell power by having an elemental shaman.

I know that most of the time it concludes to "we'll never get it perfectly, let's go on from here", but sometimes it makes whole classes or at least specs non viable.

And that's definitely not fun, something the Blizzard devs want to promote.

e.g. I may want to be a spec that gives 3% dmg but that might remove a 5% crit damage on casters. It starts flip flopping like that and it's a tedious cycle of whac a mole that doesn't need any real "skill" to deal with, mainly either playing what you don't like (unacceptable most of the time for a lot of people), or, having a 25man roster that cherry picks players for 10mans, which is again not optimal for them, because they usually want to 25man and even if they only 10man, they are probably a minority.

edit; The question might be I guess, is anyone aware of any clear solutions?

My main idea is "give all specs of a class what the class can do with each individual spec". i.e. if a class can do buf X and buf Y on 2 different specs, let it do it in all. This of course might need some trimming in specs that might give 600 bufs in different combinations right now.

edit: Or wait, what if one of the 'talents' in the new tree, is 'choose your buf'? So that a spec may use what right now another spec does but without being op in having too many bufs.

[Deleted]

This is one of the reasons 25man has the edge on 10man.

more players = more buffs

This was the first Exp were they tried to treat 10 vs 25man as two different types of raiding. They did an "OK" job, so I would guess in MoP this will change. giving more specs the buffs needed so you really can bring the player.

[Deleted]

I think the best solution for this is making use of the new talent system and make one tier a "raid buff" tier, which I think perfectly fits their reasoning with the new talent system in MoP and would mean that if you need X buff from Y class that player can provide it without being forced to respec into a spec they don't like that provides the buff.

[Xanjori]

Well tbh they do tune 10man so that you shouldnt require all the buffs. Also I think its really quite hard to make a raid composition where you do miss all the buffs, especially major buffs, I mean just from tanks alone you can cover nearly every buff to melee. And provided you aren't running a raid that consists of only 3 classes, you can just get people to choose whichever spec is optimal for your setup, if you raid with only one melee, then your hunter could be BM instead of Survi and so forth.

[Fiana]

Well tbh they do tune 10man so that you shouldnt require all the buffs.

This.

You don't need all the buffs, take your best player regardless of his specs and buffs he brings to raid.

[Deleted]

They DO NOT require less DPS in 10mans, they require more. Check before talking out of your head.

The reason they do that is because 25man has more chances of people doing wrong things.


Also, I definitely like the idea of the new talent tree helping (if a more aggressive approach is not used which might give even more bufs).

[PHsname]

They DO NOT require less DPS in 10mans, they require more. Check before talking out of your head.

The reason they do that is because 25man has more chances of people doing wrong things.


Also, I definitely like the idea of the new talent tree helping (if a more aggressive approach is not used which might give even more bufs).

Lol. That is simply not true. Before the first couple round of nerfs, 25m DPS requirements were MUCH higher than 10m. This was most apparent on Yor'sahj and Ultraxion. This was also the case with Baleroc in Firelands... -_-.

They were all nerfed to be more in line with 10m, but no, they certainly did not start out that way, and no, they DEFINITELY aren't easier.

If you're talking about normal modes, then you're arguing about things that don't matter.

[Deleted]

Your intuition is wrong. Check the numbers on Rawr. The health of the boss divided with the people and time needed to reach enrages is in most bosses (maybe all, but there may be exceptions, not many though) such that gives a noticeable higher average DPS for each person (including tanks).

If you don't trust anyone do the math yourself, get the boss healths, get the enrages, do the math. Though I do trust the theorycrafters that did it already.

[Deleted]

You don't need all existing buffs for a 10man... If you do then you aren't up for what you are raiding atm and you either need to farm more gear or, more likely, improve your gameplay.

Also a person such as yourself or more likely a guild such as yours is one of the main reasons WoW is in decline and 2mil people left it in 2011. One of the most beautiful things in WoW used to be that every class or even every spec was quite different, some more, some less. With playstyle, capability, buffs. That was almost entirely scratched in Cata, classes/specs in the same roles now mostly differ by what colour their spells produce and you want even more homogenization? Common...

[Deleted]

15 man raids and that's it. 10 is too small, 25 too big.

This I would be perfectly fine with.
Currently we are missing 3% damage from our raids, and I ain't going BM because it's clunky as fuck and overall sucks.

[Deleted]

I had suggested that as well.

25 man feels like "5 people are slacking" most of the time. 10 seems slightly smaller than it should be.

Though truth is, why stuck with round numbers? 17 might be best.

---------- Post added 2012-02-13 at 02:05 PM ----------

Also a person such as yourself or more likely a guild such as yours is one of the main reasons WoW is in decline

I play this game for so many years and so long before the recent expansions that the probability of you playing it longer is small.

But I admit I mainly care about this subject out of "completism".

I do know a 10man can do it with not all bufs, it just has to push more. And even if it does need more numbers on an individual basis - which it does - it has less frequency of individual mistakes due to less people.

edit: I suppose they may end up going "buf the boss numbers even more in 10mans if they get easier bufs". It is not that bad because it's still nice to see a uniformity in classes advantages.

[PHsname]

Your intuition is wrong. Check the numbers on Rawr. The health of the boss divided with the people and time needed to reach enrages is in most bosses (maybe all, but there may be exceptions, not many though) such that gives a noticeable higher average DPS for each person (including tanks).

If you don't trust anyone do the math yourself, get the boss healths, get the enrages, do the math. Though I do trust the theorycrafters that did it already.

What intuition? lol...

Numbers are numbers. There's nothing to intuit. It doesn't even take theorycrafting to figure this out...

[Deleted]

Yes, it doesn't. Take them and do the math.

[Larwood]

This.

You don't need all the buffs, take your best player regardless of his specs and buffs he brings to raid.

Try doing 10 man with no heroism one week and no battle res the next and then get back to me.

[Deleted]

This is completely irrelevant by the way. I do not question at all the decision to require higher individual numbers in 10mans. It is the right decision. The reason is obvious: more people have a higher frequency on individual mistakes.

[Envisionist]

If 10 mans have the same DPS requirements as 25 man than how come heroic ultraxion is like the third easiest boss to clear in 10 mans, while it was actually a hard DPS check in 25 man. Watch any video of a 10man guild facing heroic ultraxion and see how it lines up with a 25 man kill on the same date, it's not even close to being the same dps-wise.

[Larwood]

I don't see why people are saying it's ok because 10 man requires less dps. Even if that's true 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[Raider321]

They DO NOT require less DPS in 10mans, they require more. Check before talking out of your head.

The reason they do that is because 25man has more chances of people doing wrong things.


Also, I definitely like the idea of the new talent tree helping (if a more aggressive approach is not used which might give even more bufs).

jk?

10man was tuned for having all buffs & was more difficult during BoT / BwD. and by more difficult I mean almost impossible compared to 25man difficulty at the time.

since then 10man has been simply easier in every single way (except maybe only having 1 BR, everything else is much much easier)


Talking from experience, having cleared everything in both 10 and 25man.

[Deleted]

If 10 mans have the same DPS requirements as 25 man than how come heroic ultraxion is like the third easiest boss to clear in 10 mans, while it was actually a hard DPS check in 25 man. Watch any video of a 10man guild facing heroic ultraxion and see how it lines up with a 25 man kill on the same date, it's not even close to being the same dps-wise.

Do not underestimate the power of 2.5 X the people on doing individual mistakes (which includes their rotations).

To not say the buttons..

[WskyDK]

They need to let LW bring back drums!
Would help 10 man out quite a bit