sage/sorceror willpower vs power

[Nish77]

Heyas,

I've checked many sites looking for a curve as to when the crit contribution from willpower makes power become more desirable.

After the surge nerfs, the best thing I could find was a simcraft that's been recently put together (but with old values pre new surge nerf).

I'm wondering if willpower>power and if that changes at some point when the crit contribution is not worth the extra spellpower from power.

From some math on random dummy type testing, it seems power is what to stack when you have a decent amt of surge and some crit. I could also remod for more willpower and less crit (going to take a lot of bm tokens).

Any advice?

-Nish

P.S. I'm hybrid madness in full battlemaster.

[Koalachan]

Willpower is a main stat, power is a secondary stat. Main stat > secondary stat.

[Nish77]

Willpower gives less spellpower than power but some crit (small amount). The amount if crit diminishes with higher willpower meaning it gives less crit than it does early on. This means that power (a stat with no diminishing returns) always gives more spellpower and healing power (willpower gives no healing power) but gives no crit.

At some point willpower will give 0 crit and power will definitely be better. That point is off the charts though. I'm just wondering if anyone knows at what point it's better to use power than willpower. Even if the amt of crit given stayed the same (and it's a slow contribution) at some percentage of crit, bumping spellpower/healing power is just going to be more beneficial.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows when that is.

-Nish

[Koalachan]

Willpower gives less spellpower than power but some crit (small amount). The amount if crit diminishes with higher willpower meaning it gives less crit than it does early on. This means that power (a stat with no diminishing returns) always gives more spellpower and healing power (willpower gives no healing power) but gives no crit.

At some point willpower will give 0 crit and power will definitely be better. That point is off the charts though. I'm just wondering if anyone knows at what point it's better to use power than willpower. Even if the amt of crit given stayed the same (and it's a slow contribution) at some percentage of crit, bumping spellpower/healing power is just going to be more beneficial.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows when that is.

-Nish

Lets say hypothetically it were what would happen, mainly due to the DR being only on crit, and power having a DR too, even if you COULD reach the point where main stat gave 0 crit, do you honestly think you would be able to reach that point this early in the game? If you could reach the point of DR giving 0 gains in the first tier of raiding there would never be a point in releasing better gear because it would still give 0.

[Nish77]

Power has no DR. It gives MORE spell power (could arguably just be better than willpower off the bat but I guess it's not) and it gives HEALING power that willpower does not.

I stated that the point where it gave 0 crit was nowhere obtainable. My point was, is having more spellpower more beneficial than having a tiny bit more crit at some crit level or at some willpower level where the crit bonus is not as great as it was at say 300 willpower (like say 1500 willpower).

'If' you could reach the point where willpower gave 0 crit (and you can't) it would still be the main stat and would still be fairly beneficial. It would still get put on gear for the spellpower bonus. It 'may' give kinetic bonus but I don't know nor am I concerned with that right now because I am a sage who does none.

Power is already the stat of choice on 'enhancements' that do not have willpower. You can also choose 'mods' that have less willpower and more power. So, I need to know which to choose. Especially since I'm going to need to dump some surge after this nerf to it.

-Nish

[Raeli]

This may be able to help show something: http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/47/statscalingdr.png

But as you see, there really isn't a huge drop off in Crit, meaning it will take a while before Power+Crit from Willpower totals less than Power from Power. Of course, the actual specifics are a little more complicated than that, but for a long time at least, I think it's safe to say that with current gear levels, Willpower is still generally better.

[Tehfred]

My only issue with Power right now is it's apparently tied to Alacrity on gear sets (except Rakata, but we don't talk about Rakata). Since healing is pretty much tied to the CD on Resurgence and Innervate, the more Alacrity I get, the more I feel like I'm waiting around for cooldowns. With the rumored nerf to Consumption coming up, I feel less safe using unbuffed Infusions as filler.

Personally, if there were more Surge/Power mods, I'd use them like crack.

[Dawon]

Power has no DR. It gives MORE spell power (could arguably just be better than willpower off the bat but I guess it's not) and it gives HEALING power that willpower does not.

Say what? I was under the impression that willpower increase healing as well, although with a slightly lower amount than pure power?

[Nish77]

This may be able to help show something: http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/47/statscalingdr.png

But as you see, there really isn't a huge drop off in Crit, meaning it will take a while before Power+Crit from Willpower totals less than Power from Power. Of course, the actual specifics are a little more complicated than that, but for a long time at least, I think it's safe to say that with current gear levels, Willpower is still generally better.

That graph does not show power. Power has no DR and it contributes more spellpower than willpower. Lets say for instance that in wow Intellect gave you .5 spellpower and .01 crit. Lets say 1 spellpower gave you 1 spellpower. Spellpower is better.

Here are some stats:

Willpower Breakdown: 1 Willpower =
0.214286 Melee Damage
0.2 Melee Damage Bonus
0.015% Melee Crit Chance
0.2 Force Damage Bonus
0.014286 Force Crit Chance

(Notice NO HEALING POWER)

Power Breakdown: 1 Power =
0.220779 Melee Damage
0.245455 Melee Damage Bonus
0.227273 Force Bonus Damage
0.17272 Force Healing Bonus

This does not take into account the crit DR from willpower. Although, it doesn't start to taper off for quite a while... getting the amount of crit from it to hit willpower's crit dr is very very large. Still, is it worth it to scale crit up to 40 percent or stack power for spellpower? A quick and easy dummy test showed stacking 'power' over 'crit' which gives much more 'crit percentage' gave higher damage when crit was around 30 percent.

---------- Post added 2012-02-14 at 10:39 AM ----------

My only issue with Power right now is it's apparently tied to Alacrity on gear sets (except Rakata, but we don't talk about Rakata). Since healing is pretty much tied to the CD on Resurgence and Innervate, the more Alacrity I get, the more I feel like I'm waiting around for cooldowns. With the rumored nerf to Consumption coming up, I feel less safe using unbuffed Infusions as filler.

Personally, if there were more Surge/Power mods, I'd use them like crack.

Yeah, it's just hard to get. You can buy smuggler bm or rakata/battlemaster gear and rip the mods out. They have endurance power surge (or crit I forget) enhancements. There are also mods with higher willpower lower power and lower willpower higher power higher to choose from.

Also, Surge will be worth a lot less after this patch. It's DR before the patch didn't become bad till very high levels 40-45 percent or so. Now it will have the same DR as other stats (30 percent not 50) and will scale much worse than it used to. I'd imagine 300 surge will be all anyone needs.

[Dawon]

I've seen people posting sources that willpower do give healing, so that's why I'm a bit confused about the graph and statements above...

I guess it's time to check my sorc-healer's gear a bit closer (mod-changing mania) then and stop using the willpower-stim in PVP for the endurance one instead.. hmm!

[Nish77]

I think there's a talent or a buff that does something there. But I don't think it does without being healing specced?

[Lostprophet]

ofc mainstat gives healing power.....


Strength/Willpower/Aim/Cunning Damage Bonus = (Strength or Willpower or Aim or Cunning) * 0.2

Force/Tech Power Damage Bonus = (Force or Tech Power) * 0.23

Power Damage Bonus = Power * 0.23

Willpower/Aim/Cunning Healing Bonus = (Willpower or Aim or Cunning) * 0.14

Force/Tech Power Healing Bonus = (Force or Tech Power) * 0.17

Power Healing Bonus = Power * 0.17


Q:http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

[Koalachan]

Hover over your healing and see all the things giving it benefits.

[Tehfred]

Yeah, it's just hard to get. You can buy smuggler bm or rakata/battlemaster gear and rip the mods out. They have endurance power surge (or crit I forget) enhancements. There are also mods with higher willpower lower power and lower willpower higher power higher to choose from.

Also, Surge will be worth a lot less after this patch. It's DR before the patch didn't become bad till very high levels 40-45 percent or so. Now it will have the same DR as other stats (30 percent not 50) and will scale much worse than it used to. I'd imagine 300 surge will be all anyone needs.

Oh cool, I haven't even looked at IA/Smuggler gear. Thanks for the info on that.

Also, I'd still wager for this tier surge is going to be king of the "secondary-secondary" stats. As I said before, I don't trust Alacrity with the looming Consumption nerf. We also get enough crit bonuses from procs/cooldowns that by itself crit would be useless.

[Dawon]

Hover over your healing and see all the things giving it benefits.

Gonna do that when I come home, just got very confused now (at work) an unsure. But I'm pretty positive that it's something like 0.2 vs 0.17 or so in healing from Power and Willpower, giving Power a slight advantage. But perhaps it's like someone said, it's bcoz I'm speced into healing that I get Healing from Willpower as well, else it only gives dmg/crit and so on...?

[Tehfred]

I've seen people posting sources that willpower do give healing, so that's why I'm a bit confused about the graph and statements above...

http://i42.tinypic.com/qyxxrp.jpg

[Karshtakavaar]

Am I the only one reading this and realizing you're not going to find mods or gear that has less willpower for the tradeoff of more power? It seems kind of silly to look at what point one is better than the other when you cannot get that direct trade-off of one from the other. This isn't like wow where you could gem/enchant for the addition of one specific stat.

Enhancements have endurance + secondary stats, armors seem to have only primary stats, and mods have primary stats with a secondary.

[Mijolnyr]

That graph does not show power. Power has no DR and it contributes more spellpower than willpower. Lets say for instance that in wow Intellect gave you .5 spellpower and .01 crit. Lets say 1 spellpower gave you 1 spellpower. Spellpower is better.

Here are some stats:

Willpower Breakdown: 1 Willpower =
0.214286 Melee Damage
0.2 Melee Damage Bonus
0.015% Melee Crit Chance
0.2 Force Damage Bonus
0.014286 Force Crit Chance

(Notice NO HEALING POWER)

Power Breakdown: 1 Power =
0.220779 Melee Damage
0.245455 Melee Damage Bonus
0.227273 Force Bonus Damage
0.17272 Force Healing Bonus

Let me break it down for you guys, it seems people have missed some important numbers here

Willpower gives .2% bonus damage and .015% crit per point which is a .215% total stat change....without DRs
Power gives .23% bonus damage per point
People say start stacking willpower/power after 30% base crit
So once you have 30%+ base crit since willpower/power>crit at that point then point for point power>willpower

---------- Post added 2012-02-14 at 02:22 PM ----------

Adding to the conversation though, I do have to say it looks like power is going to be where it's at in future patches due to people already hitting the wall with crit/surge DRs (especially after this patch) there really is no where else to go but more power and more willpower, I don't know if that's thought out by BW or if they will have to adjust things later but it will be interesting to see what they do about it.

[Nish77]

Yeah my fault it does contribute to healing power (willpower). However the crit component does start to give less crit over time. It happens slowly (very) and it gets 'bad' way beyond current levels. The question is, when is enough crit enough and is power better. It already gives more spellpower.

This is because you can choose mods that have more power and less willpower.

Surge now seems to get bad at 300 (75 percent for me). So that's where I'm at and stopping. I take out a few pieces of gear and lose 2 percent or so but put in something with a ton at 300 and gain only 1 percent.

Power has no DR.

So, what I'm gathering is that base crit to 30 percent is roughly what you want. Self buffed I'm at about 29 and I think I'll be going for more power as much as I can. I think willpower is still fairly good being I'm not at 30 exactly (not a huge issue). But in the end, it's going to be all power where you can get it. If a mod has more power less willpower then it'll be power. If a mod has endurance power and a smaller amount compared to a larger amount of a third stat, big power will be best. It's been like that as far as testing goes.

I was just concerned with crit. I think I've got it sorted, though.