The Protection warrior of Pandaria.

[Pua]

We’ve had the best part of a week now, so an overall review of the MoP talent calculator’s most recent iteration for warriors would be fair. This post deals entirely with Protection PvE (though there may be some crossover), as I’m not really experienced enough to comment on PvE DPS or PvP with realistic lucidity.

First of all, it’s taken as read that this isn’t even a beta build and that numbers are subject to change; yadda, yadda, yadda. I know. Don’t tell me. But the current view for the Protection warrior of the future is being put up for feedback, so feedback is what it’s going to get.

I’m going to start with a premise, albeit an anecdotal one. If you were to ask every career Protection warrior what their most favourite aspect of the spec is, the top three would our mobility, our control and the interactive elegance of our priority-based rotation.

Why, then, is Blizzard removing all three?

With Intercept and Warbringer gone (the effect, not the name) our mobility is gutted. With no Concussion Blow, we lack a stun without speccing into otherwise inferior talents to pick up Shockwave or Stormbolt. Finally, with a cooldown placed on our filler ability and Sword and Board procs about to become available every nine seconds rather than every 1.5, our rotation is about to be filled up with interminable holes where we get the enjoyment of sitting around doing nothing.

This is proof, were any more needed, that the developers are out of direction and ideas where Protection warriors are concerned.

Yes, that statement is trotted out a lot and the blues are quick to say “it’s not a lack of direction, it’s a disagreement about it”. But these changes highlight that they simply don’t get what makes warriors fun, they haven’t learned the lessons of the past, and they can’t come up with a unique place for the warrior to sit, proven by talents that are little more than warmed-through iterations of what we’ve seen previously.

The fact that monks are about to become the fifth tanking class makes it harder than ever to find a role that is interesting, compelling and fun.

Let’s explore this.

I remember the original Warbringer. It made Charge, Intercept and Intervene all available in Defensive Stance, while making them all break roots. This was THE talent for a Protection warrior as far as I was concerned. What’s happened to it? First, it was nerfed to stop Charge or Intercept breaking roots. Second, it moved into Cataclsym’s higher health pools and lower tank damage without being restored. Third, and finally, Intercept is being removed, and Intervene no longer breaks roots without picking up another talent that’s otherwise inferior to that tier’s choices.

Now, let’s also consider that Charge is moving to a 20 SECOND COOLDOWN at baseline, with talents that restore its live cooldown, work awkwardly, or will do nothing whatsoever for boss tanks.

For our fabled mobility to be torn to ribbons so deliberately and systematically is nothing short of disgusting.

FFS, put our baseline Charge to 12 seconds; you owe us at least that. Secondly, sort out those awful tier one talents by making something that all warriors, including tanks, might want to pick up. How about applying Hamstring automatically to a target after a Charge? How about a short-duration DR buff (3% less damage for 6 seconds)?

How about restoring Warbringer by allowing Charge to break roots?

Sort this out.

Moving on swiftly, what on earth happened to Protection warrior control? Where’s it gone? Concussion Blow bites the dust in favour of a cheap replacement for Heroic Throw, inferior to both other choices. Intimidating Shout, our only form of crowd control, has been removed for… Nothing. As the cooldown on Pummel has been increased, will spellcasters have their cast times increased? Somehow, I doubt it. Shield Bash is gone, Shockwave is now a costly talent and I can’t even use Intercept to interrupt because it’s bitten the dust.

Dubya. Tee. Eff.

Make Shockwave a baseline Protection ability for goodness sake. Without it we’re losing a stun, and AoE damage. Thunderclap (with bleed attached) on its own will make warriors the weakest AoE tanks by a country mile. Again. Get rid of Stormbolt because it’s garbage and reinstate Concussion Blow for Protection. Seriously, why change the cooldown on Pummel? For what reason? Revert that pointless change that achieves nothing other than indirectly buffing casters, and we can forget it ever happened.

From the tank with the most control, to the tank with probably the least. You couldn’t make it up.

Sort this out.

Then we come to our priority-based rotation, the envy of melee specs everywhere. And what happens to it? Everything good about it gets removed.

Shield Slam on a six-second cooldown is okay, but we’re now looking at ONLY Revenge proccing another via Sword & Board every nine seconds. It’s 1.5 seconds on live. What is this? What are you trying to do, faceless Blizzard employee? But it gets worse. Revenge is now moving to a nine second cooldown, as mentioned, but Devastate, our filler attack since time immemorial, is getting a 4.5 second cooldown.

This is putting rotational gaps into the Protection warrior system, something that was resolutely rejected when Blizzard tried this with Protection paladins.

Who thought of this? Who considered it to be something worth trying? It’s lunacy. Undoubtedly, some bright spark will say “hey, Thunderclap is free of cost, use that”. Okay, sure; but in lieu of Shockwave, that then means that the Protection warrior rotation will be IDENTICAL regardless of whether you’re single-target tanking, or AoE tanking. What? Seriously, what? How is that “depth”? How is that “compelling”? How is that “fun”?

I wish that were all that was wrong.

Who remembers the discussion about active mitigation for tanks? I do. Clearly, the warrior developers don’t; none of our three rotational attacks have any direct impact on mitigation whatsoever. Sure, Shield Slam is our rage generator (presumably to be used on Shield Block), but Revenge and Devastate have got absolutely no defensive value whatsoever. Revenge used to have a talent for a random stun. It was ugly, but had defensive value. Shield Slam used to have an offensive dispel, and that’s also been removed. Honestly, what’s going on here? Is this some kind of joke?

Oh, and rage!

There has been nothing but problems in the past when Protection warriors became almost wholly dependent on Shield Slam landing for damage/threat. Now with threat barely an afterthought, we’re about to become wholly reliant upon Shield Slam for our mitigation. No, I’m serious. Our only rotational resource generator is on a six-second cooldown, with a 1 in 2 chance for a proc every nine-seconds.

And what are we using that rage for? Shield Block. That’s it, Shield Block. Sure, there’s a magical version but who’s going to be using that routinely? We’re queuing Shield Slam for the right to use Shield Block, with no rage left spare for either Heroic Strike or Cleave; thereby making two more attacks completely redundant, while hitting our single-target and AoE damage again. And because stacking expertise beyond the point where Shield Slam can be parried would take a huge number of points out of our passive mitigation, it’s a design that’s potentially nerfing our mitigation. Am I going to have to get my hit and expertise to 8% and 26 respectively JUST for Shield Slam (and still have it parried)?

This isn’t just bad design, ladies and gentlemen, it’s negligent and ignorant design. Has nothing been learned from the past? Who the hell is working on warriors?

Luckily, it’s not quite a lost cause. Some bones can be picked out of it.

The six second cooldown on Shield Slam is fine, but the nine for Revenge and 4.5 for Devastate is not. Six seconds is enough for Revenge, while no cooldown should be attached to Devastate. Let’s also spread the rage gain around a bit to avoid us being wholly dependent on one attack. I think 10 rage for Shield Slam, six for Revenge and four for Devastate would be fine. Next up, get Sword and Board back onto Devastate so that warriors can actually fish properly for procs rather than continually lining up Revenge to directly compete with Shield Slam. With Concussion Blow and Shockwave restored to baseline Protection talents, and including Thunderclap, we have a decent set of options to choose from again.

Next, sort out our active mitigation and let’s not make it around block for crying out loud. There’s already a “block tank” in the form of the paladin, we don’t need two. Instead, let’s find a proper niche for the warrior to sit so that he’s not just the one that can do anything, but is the poor man’s everything. I’ve always viewed the paladin as the shield tank, the DK as the magic tank, the druid as the dodge tank and the warrior as the armoured tank. Yes, these are gross simplifications but the idea still helps to differentiate tanking classes out a bit.

So, rather than Shield Block, let’s rename the activated ability to reflect its new role:

Invincible: Self belief fills the warrior, increasing his armour by 10% for six seconds.

The number would have to be balanced, but the idea is simple. By increasing armour, you’re buffing warrior mitigation via effective health and retaining the “flavour” of a tank that’s not ideally suited to magical defence but is a bulwark against physical attacks. You’re also providing a niche for him without unbalancing the other four tanks, while also providing an opportunity to start bringing bonus armour back as a compelling and meaningful stat.

But we still have block, dodge and parry to consider. Three defensive considerations match up nicely to three rotational attacks, wouldn’t you say? What would be wrong with nerfing passive block, dodge and parry only to make Devastate provide a short-duration parry buff, Revenge to provide a short-duration dodge buff and Shield Slam to provide a short-duration block buff? Hell, changing it up in this fashion could outright stop the silliness of balancing around block for two classes and, therefore, having them overpowered when they cap out. You could even tie Protection mastery into armour, further differentiating the warrior from the paladin and fighting the rampant homogenization that’s ruining individuality.

Sort it out.

Before coming to a close with this post, I have to cover the talents themselves because, essentially, they’re terrible and need work. While most classes are picking up shiny new toys to play with, warriors are seeing baseline abilities removed and renamed as talents, or are getting warmed through versions of past talents that were either boring or too weak. It’s a recipe for failure. My advice would be to utterly start again, but make talents that are interesting for tanks rather than just “for any ol’ warrior”.

I’ve mentioned what I’d do to tier one. Make Charge interesting, rather than just half-decent. Tier two is revolting, considering tanks used to be able to get almost all of this. Enraged Regeneration should be baseline, end of discussion; what it’s doing as a talent is anyone’s guess. You could literally scrap tier three, what is a boss tank going to use any of that crap for? Piercing Howl should be baseline, anyway. Likewise, Shockwave and Bladestorm need to be put into the Protection and Arms trees respectively, while Avatar should really be baseline for all warriors at level 87. If you want a war banner, make that the level 90 talent and make it a choice between raid cooldowns; one for more damage (critical strike), one for more mitigation (an armour or absorption effect) and one for utility. If warriors are known for mobility, a banner that increases movement speed by 20% could be awesome.

Seriously, the warrior talents just need fixed. I see things like Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender have largely made the cut, so why not make a talent that procs a heal at 30% health, a damage buff or an armour buff? Cleave has a lot of in-game mechanics that could be cool, so maybe talents that see it hit every target in front of the warrior, or coming up with a saber-lash effect might be fun. I like the concept of Vigilance or Safeguard, but they do the same thing just at different strengths and at different cooldowns. Bloodbath could be interesting, but it’s clumsily worded.

Bah. There’s a lot more I could say, but this is already a wall of text people are likely bored with. Let me summarise by saying that what’s been presented so far is in dire need of major surgery; it’s clear that the warrior developer(s) doesn’t have a direction for the class, nor the imagination to make anything new or compelling for its players. What we have seen this last week is just not of the required standard of innovation or depth expected, and this team simply needs moved on to something else.

I don’t say that because I don’t like what they’re trying to do, I say that because they’re systematically breaking the things that make Protection warriors great, while not addressing concerns that have been plaguing the class for years now.

Let’s not hide behind the “it’s only a preview” aside. Without feedback, the developers will think this garbage is okay and, six months from now, we’ll all be wondering how we got stuck with it.

It’s not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.

It’s time to make that clear.

[Deleted]

I admit i didnt read past the first paragraph, tbh even scrolling till bottom tired me).
BUT. What i have to say is you have no reason to be worried when in comes to PVE protection.Its easy to balance. And you are just taking wild guesses here, nothing is final. Even if they do get it wrong they will fix it asap. We always have been fine and always will be. DKs and bears cant say the same for example.
(This does not apply to warriors pvp dps or other stuff and im not saying it)

[Deleted]

I admit i didnt read past the first paragraph, tbh even scrolling till bottom tired me).
BUT. What i have to say is you have no reason to be worried when in comes to PVE protection.Its easy to balance. And you are just taking wild guesses here, nothing is final. Even if they do get it wrong they will fix it asap. We always have been fine and always will be. DKs and bears cant say the same for example.
(This does not apply to warriors pvp dps or other stuff and im not saying it)

you remind me in business of one of those admin clerks who had to clear for a finance director and at the end of the day you would shove in one more comment just to make your life seem a little better... you cant just disagree with someone when you havent even read any of it. you are wrong anyway.

anyway the OP is kinda right, its a constructive rant, we need more of these, and you do make some fair points. they would take away our filler, part of the fun of prot warrs i feel was popping enrage and inner rage and shield block while spamming your 4 attacks. i think the prot warrior would be destroyed if your waiting for an attack without the choice of specialising on single or multi target. we will have much less rage, no filler, and also we would have to be molded and forced into playing a certain way.

the arms warrior in arena is much more screwed than the prot warrior though

[Pua]

I admit i didnt read past the first paragraph, tbh even scrolling till bottom tired me).
BUT. What i have to say is you have no reason to be worried when in comes to PVE protection.Its easy to balance. And you are just taking wild guesses here, nothing is final. Even if they do get it wrong they will fix it asap. We always have been fine and always will be. DKs and bears cant say the same for example.
(This does not apply to warriors pvp dps or other stuff and im not saying it)

I don’t mean to be rude, but your commentary is meaningless if you don’t read the post; you’re talking about balance, a subject I deliberately avoided because there’s little point debating it now.

If you read the post, you’ll see why this lack of direction is such a concern. If you don’t want to read the post, please don’t comment on it; I’m sure I don’t need to tell you why it’d be pointless doing so.

[Faemn]

Time to go Fury or Arms. The way I see it, blizzard makes sure there is a viable spec within a class at most times, if you see protection is not the way to go, respec. Or maybe choose from the other 30 specs in the game to play (like 31 or 32 in MoP)

[Pua]

the arms warrior in arena is much more screwed than the prot warrior though

Honestly, I'd love to do a post like this for each facet of playing a warrior, but I really don't have the experience of playing PvE DPS or PvP at a high level to justify any opinion I'd share.

First pass, though, warriors look to be dead in the water in PvP. Still no real resistance to CC and with Throwdown gone, I don't see how pressure is supposed to be applied.

[Deleted]

Ok i read it. It was exactly what i suspected ofc

1. You say that our rotation will have gapping holes.
The abilities and functionality not beeing final is not a valid point and therefore your proof is not proof is pure guessing.
Aka i seriously doubt that will be the case in the end

2. Intercept is a charge that costs rage.Will it impact us in any way in raids beeing removed?No.
Leap and charge offer you all the mobility you could possibly need in raids.In all cataclysm tiers and in the future.
If you say it doesnt i have no idea what are you raiding but its clearly something different than me.

3. Charge is NOT a 20 sec cd as a prot warr you will clearly take the talent to make it 12.Rest is for pvp.So yea.

4. Crowd control in 90% of cases is useless in PVE.Shockwave has always been enough for me at least.
In raids you as prot warr wont have to do it, in dungeons if really needed i guess you can fish a mage or something to handle it.
As for making shockwave baseline well yea that would be a choice i guess but as a talent its still a choice.Current trees have it
as talent so, just pick it up.

5.Aoe threat doesnt change.Again ur guessing it will be a problem without anything final. We have same abilities now and its faceroll.

6. You again state that we will have rotation gaps.You cannot know that! Blizz is not retarded it will give us fillers in the final.

7. Prot warr will be same for single and aoe tanking.Yea it will be. Isnt it now? You still use clap and shockwave, or you should for single target.Therefore.

8. "Next, sort out our active mitigation and let’s not make it around block for crying out loud. "
You do realise the whole prot warr icon is based on block yes? They will never change this nor should they. More active mitigation, yea maybe we could use some but again this is balance related.If we dont need it why would they add it, they just wont.


I hope i have shown you that you DO NOT have many valid points or even concerns in your post.

Your ONLY valid point is indeed the fun factor.Could we use more of it and some new fun abilities?
Yea definetely i agree we could.The problem is prot warr is an icon. Its a lot harder for them to add stuff that for DK for example
A lot of people would rage of any ability that is fun but doesnt fit us as RP if you wanna put it that way.
But yea in the end prot warrs need more fun factor

PS: Dont throw in pvp related to crowd control and such, you stated your post is in relation to pve prot.Aka dungeons and raids.

[Relentless]

Ok i read it. It was exactly what i suspected ofc

1. You say that our rotation will have gapping holes.
The abilities and functionality not beeing final is not a valid point and therefore your proof is not proof is pure guessing.
Aka i seriously doubt that will be the case in the end

You talk about not guessing and then basically say that you're guessing at the outcome, too. You say that you read the post, and then managed to ignore the fact that he's addressing the CURRENT state of the talent calculator, not the end result.

Think before you write.

[Deleted]

You talk about not guessing and then basically say that you're guessing at the outcome, too. You say that you read the post, and then managed to ignore the fact that he's addressing the CURRENT state of the talent calculator, not the end result.

Think before you write.

Please explain to me the point of adressing CURRENT state of talent calculator if its not final. I simply fail to understand. In my mind i was thinking he adresses the CURRENT (see what i did there?) state just because worried for the final result. Cause otherwise it makes no sense.

---------- Post added 2012-02-21 at 01:49 PM ----------

@OP: Also as an off-topic if i may, you seem pretty bored with current tank warr (and i dont blame you) and hope/expect a miracle will happen in MOP. It wont.Id like to also, but it wont
My advice change your main, or go dps. Most fun tank atm is DK hands down :<

[Pua]

/sigh

Yet another person who seems to think everything will be just fine, if we just keep quiet and trust a development team with a well-established history of failure. I suppose I should at least thank you for reading the post, so let’s see what you made of it.

1. You say that our rotation will have gapping holes.
The abilities and functionality not beeing final is not a valid point and therefore your proof is not proof is pure guessing.
Aka i seriously doubt that will be the case in the end

What I inferred was confirmed by blue coverage (posted by Kaivax, but undoubtedly on behalf of the developers). He said that Devastate had a cooldown because it was free of rage cost, and that “they were comfortable with rotational gaps”.

So I’m not guessing, I’m going from developer commentary.

2. Intercept is a charge that costs rage.Will it impact us in any way in raids beeing removed?No.
Leap and charge offer you all the mobility you could possibly need in raids.In all cataclysm tiers and in the future.
If you say it doesnt i have no idea what are you raiding but its clearly something different than me.

I can find a number of DPS and PvP warriors who are devastated at the loss of our “double-charge”. As for PvE tanks, yes, I use both Charge and Intercept a lot, as well as Intervene and Heroic Leap. If you’re not finding yourself using Intercept, you’re not using your class to its full potential.

Pretty much every fight in Dragon Soul.

3. Charge is NOT a 20 sec cd as a prot warr you will clearly take the talent to make it 12.Rest is for pvp.So yea.

So Juggernaut isn’t a choice anymore? Thanks for clarifying that. It’s completely against the design intent to have “one obviously preferable talent” per tier, but clearly it’s okay with you.

4. Crowd control in 90% of cases is useless in PVE.Shockwave has always been enough for me at least.
In raids you as prot warr wont have to do it, in dungeons if really needed i guess you can fish a mage or something to handle it.
As for making shockwave baseline well yea that would be a choice i guess but as a talent its still a choice.Current trees have it
as talent so, just pick it up.

By control, I’m not merely talking about conventional CC such as Polymorph, Freezing Trap or Repentance. I’m talking about pack control such as stunning casters, disarming duel-wielders, or applying Shockwave BEFORE the conventional CC is applied to help with positioning.

Also, Intimidating Shout is a perfectly viable form of CC for those with the imagination to use it safely. This was particularly true in early Cataclysm when healers were still getting to grips with heroic-instance healing.

5.Aoe threat doesnt change.Again ur guessing it will be a problem without anything final. We have same abilities now and its faceroll.

No Shockwave unless you dump Avatar, and no rage for Cleave. In this instance, I was comparing us to other classes with multiple AoE abilities and saying we were going to be abnormally weak. Considering you haven’t contested that fact, I’ll assume it’s a valid concern.

6. You again state that we will have rotation gaps.You cannot know that! Blizz is not retarded it will give us fillers in the final.

See point one. It’s developer-confirmed that this is working as intended.

7. Prot warr will be same for single and aoe tanking.Yea it will be. Isnt it now? You still use clap and shockwave, or you should for single target.Therefore.

Shockwave is a non-preferred talent, and Cleave will largely bite the dust thanks to rage shortages. Also, the prioritisation is currently different for AoE, with Thunderclap only used to refresh Rend (which we lost, I might add) and, by proxy, the attack speed debuff.

8. "Next, sort out our active mitigation and let’s not make it around block for crying out loud. "
You do realise the whole prot warr icon is based on block yes? They will never change this nor should they. More active mitigation, yea maybe we could use some but again this is balance related.If we dont need it why would they add it, they just wont.

The Protection warrior icon is based on block? According to whom? In TBC, paladins were considered “the block tank” and that’s why they were such a good choice for Mount Hyjal; their unusually high chance to block multiple attacks (as well as their AoE threat).

Moving into WotLK, warriors were actually rewarded for investing in armour thanks to talents like Armored to the Teeth, implying that it was the go to stat for us.

Please tell me where you read or heard that the Protection warrior icon is based on block.

More importantly, however, you’ve utterly missed the point. Let’s say warriors WERE based on block; my point is that there is already a block tank and the game doesn’t need two. There’s no armour tank, and I feel the warrior is more aptly suited to that role and I’d like to see it meaningfully explored both via our active mitigation, and via our mastery.

I hope i have shown you that you DO NOT have many valid points or even concerns in your post.

No, quite the opposite. I’ve torn your post to ribbons without even having to refer to my original. Every single refutation you’ve made has been shown to be based on misunderstanding of the facts or faulty logic.

Every point you’ve tried to contest remains untouched.

Your ONLY valid point is indeed the fun factor.Could we use more of it and some new fun abilities?
Yea definetely i agree we could.The problem is prot warr is an icon. Its a lot harder for them to add stuff that for DK for example
A lot of people would rage of any ability that is fun but doesnt fit us as RP if you wanna put it that way.
But yea in the end prot warrs need more fun factor

There is nothing fun about being a poor man’s paladin, and that’s where we’re headed; except this time, without funky utility or enjoyment to keep us playing.

PS: Dont throw in pvp related to crowd control and such, you stated your post is in relation to pve prot.Aka dungeons and raids.

“With some crossover”.

Did you miss that part?

And which section, specifically, dealt with CC exclusive to PvP?

---------- Post added 2012-02-21 at 01:59 PM ----------

Please explain to me the point of adressing CURRENT state of talent calculator if its not final. I simply fail to understand.

Because the developers have requested feedback. It’s awfully simple, really, and this post makes me think you’re probably trolling.

[Deleted]

and that`s why my dear friend ,, i`m quitting in MOP. Time for Diablo.

[Deleted]

It fills me with hope seeing people can still rant constructively. Kudos!

While I certainly don't feel like the sky is falling over Protection Warriors, I too fail to see where the developers want to go with this and how they consider it better than what we have.

Active mitigation is the key word developers have used to describe their future design intents for tanks. Active mitigation which means we actively make choices or react to states in order to maximize our survivability, similar to how damage dealers make choices to maximize their damage output.

Right. I love the sound of that - heck I wouldn't mind if we did no damage what-so-ever and simply suffered less and less damage the better we executed our defensive rotation.

For Protection Warriors, the active mitigation seems to be rage management. Generate rage and pour that rage into either Shield Block or Spell Block (or whatever it's called). It's not a bad idea, I mean, as things are right now rage could dissapear and nobody would notice it was gone.

Might as well use the resource we already have right? Well. No. As you point out, Thylacine, this renders Heroic Strike and Cleave as unused abilities - unless we have major amounts of rage. But if we do, then the entire decision-making or state-reacting concept of "active mitigation" would be rendered as pointless anyway.

Using rage for defensive means won't cut it, not until they remove offensive rage dumps and give us a set of different defensive options in their place.

Assuming they intend to keep things somewhat close to what they are in the alpha right now, where we build rage by executing our rotation and then dump it with non-GCD defensive abilities, then they should get rid of Heroic Strike and Cleave as rage dumps. I want to get rewarded for reacting to different states and making the right decisions and I want the reward to be higher survivability.

Let us choose what to dump our rage in. Not just "spam Shield Block and the occasional Spell Block when the boss casts a spell". That's not decision making. Make, say, 4 different defensive rage dumps and make neither better than the other in any given scenario. For instance (and nevermind the names lol):

Iron will
The Warrior prepares himself for pain mentally. The next 3 times the Warrior suffers damage, those attacks or effects will deal 20% less damage.

Shield Block
The Warrior raises his shield. For the next 14 seconds, chance to block is increased by 20%.

Threatening pose
The Warrior takes a threatening stance, making his enemies hesitate. The next 3 basic attacks made against the Warrior are delayed by 0.5 seconds.

Spell block
The Warrior laughs at wimpy spells. For the next 6 seconds, magical damage taken is decreased by 10%.

Now, I wrote these on the spot. Look at them conceptually, don't mind numbers. Neither is better in any given scenario. Depending on healer state and boss swing timer/attack damage, different abilities should be used. Spell Block is weaker than Iron Will vs. an AoE damage pulse, but stronger vs. a dragon breath. Shield Block may be stronger than the other damage reducers, but you wouldn't want to overlap it, it's not guaranteed and you would rather combine it with Spell Block than Threatening Pose.

Get my point? I want to actively make the choice of what to dump my rage in to gain higher survivability.

[Lil]

Seriously, why change the cooldown on Pummel? For what reason? Revert that pointless change that achieves nothing other than indirectly buffing casters, and we can forget it ever happened.

Actually, that's kind of the whole thing. Every class get their interrupt CDs increased. That's deliberate, because right now, in PvP you can hardly get a cast off... ever. So casters are forced to mainly use instants, which get buffed, which makes melees unhappy because instants are uninterruptible and so on. Blizzard wanted to stop/slow this arms race with the next addon.
PvE mobs are easily adjusted to the new interrupt CDs.

My impression regarding the stun and intercept change is that this is also mainly a PvP thing. Right now, every rated BG team requires a prot warrior as flag carrier and possibly also on other maps. They bring so much control and utility that no one bothers to look for one of the other 3 tank classes when you can have a warrior.

[Bruin]

/sigh


More importantly, however, you’ve utterly missed the point. Let’s say warriors WERE based on block; my point is that there is already a block tank and the game doesn’t need two. There’s no armour tank, and I feel the warrior is more aptly suited to that role and I’d like to see it meaningfully explored both via our active mitigation, and via our mastery.

Just giving you some clarification that Druids will be the "armor" tank come Mists - as their Mastery (as it currently stands for Mists) will increase their armor. (DKs get an absorb, and Pallies share the block mechanic, just without the chance to get critical blocks, and I'm going to guess Monks will get an absorb as well {probably where the Druid bubble got shifted to})

But @OT: I do wonder why they are removing a lot of Warrior mobility; personally, I always thought of Warriors being the mobile tanks.

[Deleted]

What I inferred was confirmed by blue coverage (posted by Kaivax, but undoubtedly on behalf of the developers). He said that Devastate had a cooldown because it was free of rage cost, and that “they were comfortable with rotational gaps”.
So I’m not guessing, I’m going from developer commentary.

I did not catch their comment on that. If indeed its their intent its stupid.

I can find a number of DPS and PvP warriors who are devastated at the loss of our “double-charge”. As for PvE tanks, yes, I use both Charge and Intercept a lot, as well as Intervene and Heroic Leap. If you’re not finding yourself using Intercept, you’re not using your class to its full potential.
Pretty much every fight in Dragon Soul.

And again you bring word of dps warrs and pvp in a intended topic about prot.
Every fight in DS? WTF are you talking about!!!
Morchok.Charge after channel stuff thats all.
Yor. No Charge.No intercept.
Zoz.Charge on big tentacle if doing heroic.No charge no intercept on normal
Hagara.Charge on add in phase, charge on her when phase ends.Or leap.Maybe even intercept if you really really want it
Ultra.No movement
Warmaster.Charge on adds.Even though you can just pick them up
Spine.Charge on tendons.Maybe.
Madness.Charge used on big corruptor or whatever, and on adds pack.Have it back each time to use again
Again.WTF you talk about.

So Juggernaut isn’t a choice anymore? Thanks for clarifying that. It’s completely against the design intent to have “one obviously preferable talent” per tier, but clearly it’s okay with you.

You have 3 specs and PVE and PVP on top of that.Yes for spec prot, and PVE thats the obvious talent....Sue blizz lol

By control, I’m not merely talking about conventional CC such as Polymorph, Freezing Trap or Repentance. I’m talking about pack control such as stunning casters, disarming duel-wielders, or applying Shockwave BEFORE the conventional CC is applied to help with positioning.
Also, Intimidating Shout is a perfectly viable form of CC for those with the imagination to use it safely. This was particularly true in early Cataclysm when healers were still getting to grips with heroic-instance healing.

Its all just theory talk.I was there in early cataclysm and before.Yes you can use it. Do you need it?No.Not in PVE dungeons and raids.

No Shockwave unless you dump Avatar, and no rage for Cleave. In this instance, I was comparing us to other classes with multiple AoE abilities and saying we were going to be abnormally weak. Considering you haven’t contested that fact, I’ll assume it’s a valid concern.

What? Avatar for prot PVE? I rest my case. Also you comparing other classes even though you said you dont touch balance).You dont know threat ratios or anything.If MOP is here and i looose aoe aggro yea ill post on official forums about it.Till than..

The Protection warrior icon is based on block? According to whom? In TBC, paladins were considered “the block tank” and that’s why they were such a good choice for Mount Hyjal; their unusually high chance to block multiple attacks (as well as their AoE threat).

Moving into WotLK, warriors were actually rewarded for investing in armour thanks to talents like Armored to the Teeth, implying that it was the go to stat for us.

Please tell me where you read or heard that the Protection warrior icon is based on block.

More importantly, however, you’ve utterly missed the point. Let’s say warriors WERE based on block; my point is that there is already a block tank and the game doesn’t need two. There’s no armour tank, and I feel the warrior is more aptly suited to that role and I’d like to see it meaningfully explored both via our active mitigation, and via our mastery.

Well your point is only your personal opinion.Im pretty sure a lot of warrs including me like beeing a block tank. The game doesnt need two)).Says who?you?
Well yea.

No, quite the opposite. I’ve torn your post to ribbons without even having to refer to my original. Every single refutation you’ve made has been shown to be based on misunderstanding of the facts or faulty logic.
Every point you’ve tried to contest remains untouched.

Yes, as you say...

---------- Post added 2012-02-21 at 02:20 PM ----------

While I certainly don't feel like the sky is falling over Protection Warriors, I too fail to see where the developers want to go with this and how they consider it better than what we have.

Its not better . Its exactly the same in a different form to catch the interest of some. Also you should post some of your mitigation suggestions on official. Maybe someone actually notices it.(fingers crossed)

---------- Post added 2012-02-21 at 02:24 PM ----------

Well actually the whole new management of rage will help our snap aggro a little. Which i apreciate it. Dont see any other advantages though

[Pua]

Yep, pretty obviously trolling. This will be my last response to you before I move on to the excellent post by Mest and forget your silly commentary.

Every fight in DS? WTF are you talking about!!!
Morchok.Charge after channel stuff thats all.
Yor. No Charge.No intercept.
Zoz.Charge on big tentacle if doing heroic.No charge no intercept on normal
Hagara.Charge on add in phase, charge on her when phase ends.Or leap.Maybe even intercept if you really really want it
Ultra.No movement
Warmaster.Charge on adds.Even though you can just pick them up
Spine.Charge on tendons.Maybe.
Madness.Charge used on big corruptor or whatever, and on adds pack.Have it back each time to use again
Again.WTF you talk about.

Using Intervene for positioning on Morchok and charging/intercepting back is common. You covered Zonozz. I've seen Yorsajh two-tanked, so it's suitable there (no judgement on why raids use two tanks). Ultraxion, no charging. Warmaster... I shouldn't need to say. Spine... I shouldn't need to say. Madness... I shouldn't need to say.

It might also be worth considering what's considered the most challenging fight in this expansion, Ragnaros, and asking yourself how good our mobility made us on THAT fight.

"WTF you talk about"?

You have 3 specs and PVE and PVP on top of that.Yes for spec prot, and PVE thats the obvious talent....Sue blizz lol

So three specs means I shouldn't get talents that are orientated for Protection? You must be joking.

Its all just theory talk.I was there in early cataclysm and before.Yes you can use it. Do you need it?No.Not in PVE dungeons and raids.

No, it's quite practical. I've personally been happily using Intimidating Shout as CC since my days tanking the Shattered Halls. What's "needed" has very little to do with what's "fun" or "compelling".

What? Avatar for prot PVE? I rest my case. Also you comparing other classes even though you said you dont touch balance).You dont know threat ratios or anything.If MOP is here and i looose aoe aggro yea ill post on official forums about it.Till than..

Yes, Avatar for Protection PvE. Every other tank has a DPS cooldown, yet warriors don't. If you think it's a bad choice to pick one up, especially in fights with relatively tight enrages, then more fool you.

Well your point is only your personal opinion.Im pretty sure a lot of warrs including me like beeing a block tank. The game doesnt need two)).Says who?you?
Well yea.

Ah, backtracking.

This was a response to your affirmation that warriors are a block tank "icon". I asked you who told you that; I'm not interested in who might like being a block tank.

Oh, you have no answer? You mean to say you were calling me out for theories and opinions but don't want to admit to one of your own?

And, no. The game doesn't objectively need two block tanks and would, I believe, benefit from a less homogenized approach.

Your "comments" have been weighed, measured and found wanting. Please just put an egg in your shoe and beat it.

---------- Post added 2012-02-21 at 02:46 PM ----------

Actually, that's kind of the whole thing. Every class get their interrupt CDs increased. That's deliberate, because right now, in PvP you can hardly get a cast off... ever. So casters are forced to mainly use instants, which get buffed, which makes melees unhappy because instants are uninterruptible and so on. Blizzard wanted to stop/slow this arms race with the next addon.
PvE mobs are easily adjusted to the new interrupt CDs.

That's fair enough. My problem is that slowing down "the arms race" is going to put casters in a hugely advantageous position if other endemic class problems are not fixed. For example, warriors are looking to be even more prone to being CC'd out of a game in MoP, while specs like Retribution still lack proper gap closers or snares.

My impression regarding the stun and intercept change is that this is also mainly a PvP thing. Right now, every rated BG team requires a prot warrior as flag carrier and possibly also on other maps. They bring so much control and utility that no one bothers to look for one of the other 3 tank classes when you can have a warrior.

Yeah, I see that; but the problem with warriors as FC's isn't actually warriors at all I don't think - it's Smoke Bomb. Because warriors are the only class that can reliably escape it, that makes them the default choice. Really, Smoke Bomb should go and I think you'd see FC balance even out (as an aside, can bears carry the flag at all while in form?).

Just giving you some clarification that Druids will be the "armor" tank come Mists - as their Mastery (as it currently stands for Mists) will increase their armor. (DKs get an absorb, and Pallies share the block mechanic, just without the chance to get critical blocks, and I'm going to guess Monks will get an absorb as well {probably where the Druid bubble got shifted to})

Aye, I was aware of that; my point is more that warriors make more sense as "the armour tank", bearing in mind we're wearing bucketloads of plate as well as a shield to hide behind. Bears being the armour tank thanks to leather armour and fur is a bit... Disconcerting, if you ask me.

[Deleted]

Yep, pretty obviously trolling. This will be my last response to you before I move on to the excellent post by Mest and forget your silly commentary.

Using Intervene for positioning on Morchok and charging/intercepting back is common. You covered Zonozz. I've seen Yorsajh two-tanked, so it's suitable there (no judgement on why raids use two tanks). Ultraxion, no charging. Warmaster... I shouldn't need to say. Spine... I shouldn't need to say. Madness... I shouldn't need to say.
It might also be worth considering what's considered the most challenging fight in this expansion, Ragnaros, and asking yourself how good our mobility made us on THAT fight.
"WTF you talk about"?

No im not trolling, and yes this will be my last reply aswell to you and to this post also.
I really cant stand people like you who have absolutely no idea about how to play their role , the tank role, which by definition it implies moving AS LESS as possible when not required so they maximise raid dps.
But hey go ahead and tell others they should learn to play their class at max potential. Lets press more buttons cause its pro!. Ignorance ftw.
You use intercept on " Every fight in DS".Dear god.
And yes Ragnaros made us and our mobility extremely good, BIS, all that. Thats why Paragon killed it with pally and bear.


PS: Prot warr descriptions by blizz:.

Spec: A stalwart protector who uses a shield to safeguard himself and his allies
Defense stance: Mighty warriors depend on their heavy armor, shields, and battle prowess to defend themselves and ensure enemies don’t focus on their softer-skinned allies.
Class desc: Warriors combine strength, leadership, and a vast knowledge of arms and armor to wreak havoc in glorious combat. Some protect from the front lines with shields, locking down enemies while allies support the warrior from behind with spell and bow. Others forgo the shield and unleash their rage at the closest threat with a variety of deadly weapons.
Overall specs summary: Warrior talents can improve their already considerable defenses with a shield, increase their deadliness with two-handed weapons, or bolster their savagery while dual-wielding.

[Pua]

Okay, Mest – ace post. My apologies for posting a rant, it wasn’t meant to be a rant, was it really a rant? I hate rants.

I have a lot of issues with the way they seem to be applying active mitigation, and you touched on them; I’m comfortable with the idea of building rage for mitigation, but our choices once we hit 60 rage are (frankly) rubbish. I did ignore the names you gave as per your request, but I see what you mean and completely agree with you. I can’t see why our choices are so bland when, really, they could be so good.

There’s another snag, however, with active mitigation and that’s the fact that storing rage up for a short term cooldown isn’t very… Active. :S

You’ll undoubtedly recall that one of the concerns Ghostcrawler had was that tanks totally devalued hit and expertise thanks to Vengeance, and any piece of tanking gear that had threat stats was considered garbage. I was all for the reinvigoration of threat stats by making them defensively meaningful, but this iteration just doesn’t go anywhere near far enough. One attack every six seconds is all that matters, and that’s just really poor design. I’d be happy enough if I got to 8%/26 if I just got more bang for my buck.

Namely, Revenge and Devastate doing something for me. Let’s say I pick up Shockwave and Stormbolt, they’re another two attacks that do absolutely nothing defensively if I’m on a boss. They’re just more damage. So not only are my choices at the magic number so limiting (block moar trolololol), only one of my attacks actually matters.

Another beef I have is that mastery plays absolutely no part in this. It’s still entirely passive. Why? If we’re expected to be keeping up Shield Block, why can’t mastery play a part in it rather than just being an independent (and passive) stat? Even something like more mastery increasing the duration while Shield Block is up, or increasing the amount blocked by a percentage would show some joined-up thinking.

As of right now, I’m honestly not convinced the individuals developing warriors have ever actually played them. That might sound ludicrous, but I can’t think of any other legitimate reason for this level of oversight.

[Scummer]

Very well said and I agree on all points really. I haven't dug very deep into the new warrior talents as much as you have nor do I really look at or care about the other tanking classes.

The one thing that really does infuriate me is the loss of mobility. Every time somebody asks about Warrior tanks the first and foremost perk we have is our mobility and now we are losing it. I'm not sure why were are losing it as it doesn't really affect the other specs at all really so i can only assume it's being removed due to prot.

Makes me glad I can try it out in Beta.

My apologies for posting a rant, it wasn’t meant to be a rant, was it really a rant? I hate rants.

Haha yeah I see it as a rant, but a very well constructed one. They aren't bad aslong as they're constructed well .

[Nyxolem]

I'll come back and comment further shortly, but I felt I needed to throw out two comments. First, I agree with a lot of the issues brought up in this thread. Second, we should be writing about this on the main wow forums. Blizzard won't see our feedback here--and I am convinced they are, in fact, interested in well reasoned feedback.

Here is a thread in the tanking forums about the empty GCD issue. Might be a good place to start posting about those concerns.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4062878366