Elementalist Discussion

[Profyrion]

I don't see it as a weakness in the least.

Elementalists have four attunements instead of two weapons. Whenever I need to be at range with my daggers, I can switch to water attunement. Vapor Blade has a ridiculously large range for what is a "melee" weapon. Sure, it's only 600, and not 1200 or even 900, but so what? There's no PvE content that makes 600 range absolutely impossible. You'd struggle with it in WvW in massive zergs, but why in the world would you knowingly head for a massive zerg with daggers?

Frankly, it's not any bigger of a weakness for Elementalists than for other classes. What if I go to a fight with Greatsword/Hammer on my Guardian, and it turns out I need a ranged weapon? I'm boned!

At least Dagger/Dagger gets an automatically built-in ranged option, however short that range may be.

Water's boomerang ability is hardly a consolation for needing range when you're stuck with daggers. It's an option, but a poor one.

And if you got stuck with hammer/greatsword on your Guardian, that's a failure on your part. Here's where you're starting to pick up on the differences. I can choose to equip hammer/greatsword on a Guardian and it's a personally limiting decision. The option exists, and I could probably come up with some compelling reasons to do it that way. I can also choose to run around everywhere with daggers on my Elementalist (as I often do), but I don't get the same option the Guardian does. If I needed the flexibility of range and melee in a given scenario I'm screwed. It's one or the other.

Yes there are 4 attunements, but they are all very focused to a combat role based on the weapon(s). Daggers are clearly "close range". Scepter is more "medium range". Staff obviously covers "long range". Off-hands compliment. There is a small amount of variability within those roles, but not enough that an Elementalist will ever have all the bases covered in a given fight to the degree that some classes can (keyword). The option does not exist. And that's where the weakness comes from.

Having said all that, I'm going to go back and try more PvE stuff with scepter+focus and see how it fairs. It may be a viable compromise.

[DrakeWurrum]

It's really not that poor of an option.

[Granyala]

Things die FAST when I'm in Fire.

(staff user, don't like to melee)
Normal world mobs yes.
Personal story mobs no. (they just seem to have ridiculous HP pools)

Your main dps seems to be the condition damage. Since you can't keep that up mobs live forever due to waiting for ability cooldowns.

[DrakeWurrum]

(staff user, don't like to melee)
Normal world mobs yes.
Personal story mobs no.

Personal story mobs yes, in my case, regardless of which weapon I have equipped. Fast relative to the other attunements, at least.

[Profyrion]

It's really not that poor of an option.

You have to stand still if you want your projectiles to hit on the way back (for proper damage). They make a bee line to the target, but once they reach their apex (assuming they don't collide oddly with the geometry) they lock on to the player character for the return. If you're moving to avoid damage or just better positioning you're cutting your effective damage output in half. That's not exactly a great option.

[Granyala]

If you're constantly in fire, how do you do it? I just can't handle the moronic design of the game. It constantly just spawns more stuff on my position. Its so annoying. At least in earth I survive. (and stacking bleed to 15 kills stuff not that much slower than fire).

What level are you and what stats do you use? Maybe I'm gearing wrong.
I can't get my tailoring skill up, due to lack of materials (yeah i know even if I complete zones 100% <_<), so I pretty much wear what the quests give me.
Trinkets, ring and neck are a mixture of lapis (survival) and amethyst (power/vitality), all level appropriate.

[Glytch]

Water's boomerang ability is hardly a consolation for needing range when you're stuck with daggers. It's an option, but a poor one.

And if you got stuck with hammer/greatsword on your Guardian, that's a failure on your part. Here's where you're starting to pick up on the differences. I can choose to equip hammer/greatsword on a Guardian and it's a personally limiting decision. The option exists, and I could probably come up with some compelling reasons to do it that way. I can also choose to run around everywhere with daggers on my Elementalist (as I often do), but I don't get the same option the Guardian does. If I needed the flexibility of range and melee in a given scenario I'm screwed. It's one or the other.

Yes there are 4 attunements, but they are all very focused to a combat role based on the weapon(s). Daggers are clearly "close range". Scepter is more "medium range". Staff obviously covers "long range". Off-hands compliment. There is a small amount of variability within those roles, but not enough that an Elementalist will ever have all the bases covered in a given fight to the degree that some classes can (keyword). The option does not exist. And that's where the weakness comes from.

Having said all that, I'm going to go back and try more PvE stuff with scepter+focus and see how it fairs. It may be a viable compromise.

This is intentional and by design we've known about this for 2 and a half years when they first announced elementalist. If you missed the memo then... Sorry?

Eles are meant to be locked into one weapon style but change what they do

[DrakeWurrum]

If you're constantly in fire, how do you do it?

Who said I'm constantly in fire? I'm switching attunements regularly, and it's how I've noticed that Fire does ridiculous damage. I just do even MORE damage by regularly switching, and it also allows me to control my enemy and support my team (something fire lacks). Sometimes I only survive a fight because, rather than stubbornly sticking to earth and waiting for ability cooldowns, I switch to earth and blast out a sudden combo of intense damage, barely managing to kill them first.

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 11:10 AM ----------

You have to stand still if you want your projectiles to hit on the way back (for proper damage).

Yeah, if you want that. Key word there being want. They're not required to hit on the way back, in order for you to kill the enemy. They don't have to do both hits, and the damage is plenty "proper" without it. Often you can still game it for a second hit even with avoiding dangerous damage, considering how large some enemy models are.

We don't have Recount in this game, it's okay to not do perfectly flawless DPS.

[Deafknight]

Cast Meteor Shower for about a second. Cast Flame Burst / Burning Retreat / Lava Font.
Cast Time cut by 2/3: PROFIT !

[Durzlla]

If you're constantly in fire, how do you do it? I just can't handle the moronic design of the game. It constantly just spawns more stuff on my position. Its so annoying. At least in earth I survive. (and stacking bleed to 15 kills stuff not that much slower than fire).

What level are you and what stats do you use? Maybe I'm gearing wrong.
I can't get my tailoring skill up, due to lack of materials (yeah i know even if I complete zones 100% <_<), so I pretty much wear what the quests give me.
Trinkets, ring and neck are a mixture of lapis (survival) and amethyst (power/vitality), all level appropriate.

How do you do 15 stacks O.o I can only keep up like 9 or so... Then again I use scepter focus because I LOVE all the conditions and survivability it gives!

[Granyala]

Yeah switching in group play of course.
But switching in solo play is pretty pointless. The cool down of the attunements is simply far too long to make that a useful DPS increase in prolonged fights.
At least not when using a staff, can't speak much for the other weapons.

We don't have Recount in this game, it's okay to not do perfectly flawless DPS.

Depends. Personally I like pulling my weight in a group and not just stand there and fool around. In solo situations you usually don't do perfect DPS in any game.

How do you do 15 stacks O.o I can only keep up like 9 or so... Then again I use scepter focus because I LOVE all the conditions and survivability it gives!

Staff Earth 2 adds 7 stacks of bleed. Bleeding stacks further, cooldown is short enough.

Scepter is nice, but I just find it infuriating when all my attacks are location bound when mob damage and squishyness(TM) require me to constantly run around like a terrified chicken. 90% of the time, my attack hits pretty much ... nothing.

[Profyrion]

This is intentional and by design we've known about this for 2 and a half years when they first announced elementalist. If you missed the memo then... Sorry?

Eles are meant to be locked into one weapon style but change what they do

Yeah I played them in beta too. Thanks for the new news.

It's the "changing what they do" part that I take issue with. The fact is, the 4 attunements aren't significantly different beyond what color splash they make. There are a few gimmicks, but they are pointlessly restricting on the whole. That runs very counter to the PvE design of this game, where every other class seems to have options for ranged and melee built into a single gear set.

Yeah, if you want that. Key word there being want. They're not required to hit on the way back, in order for you to kill the enemy. They don't have to do both hits, and the damage is plenty "proper" without it. Often you can still game it for a second hit even with avoiding dangerous damage, considering how large some enemy models are.

We don't have Recount in this game, it's okay to not do perfectly flawless DPS.

If they weren't meant to hit twice then why make them hit twice?

That's a ridiculous statement. Of course you want them to connect both hits. Damage is the entire point of the ability.

And don't fucking patronize me. I never said anything about Recount.

[rhandric]

If you're constantly in fire, how do you do it? I just can't handle the moronic design of the game. It constantly just spawns more stuff on my position. Its so annoying. At least in earth I survive. (and stacking bleed to 15 kills stuff not that much slower than fire).

That's the thing, elementalists need to be swapping attunements, at least as frequently as others swap weapons. For other classes, swapping weapons is often a swap in playstyle (melee to ranged, etc). For elementalists, swapping attunements is the playstyle -- you chose your weapon set, and thus the skill set; if you stick in a single attunement it'd be like playing a warrior without using the adrenaline skill, or a mesmer without exploding images - it'll work on easier fights but not harder content.

[DrakeWurrum]

If they weren't meant to hit twice then why make them hit twice?

That's a ridiculous statement. Of course you want them to connect both hits. Damage is the entire point of the ability.

And don't fucking patronize me. I never said anything about Recount.

I'm not saying they weren't "meant" to hit twice. I've said they're not required to hit twice. Your top priority is survival first. If you have to run around and avoid getting hit, you're going to be sacrificing damage no matter what weapon you're using. Except maybe the Greatsword for Mesmer, but that's a friggin laser beam.

Also: You didn't have to say anything about Recount. It's quite obvious you're overly concerned with performing flawless DPS, when you don't have to. This game does not punish you for not having maximum numbers.

[Glytch]

Yeah I played them in beta too. Thanks for the new news.

It's the "changing what they do" part that I take issue with. The fact is, the 4 attunements aren't significantly different beyond what color splash they make. There are a few gimmicks, but they are pointlessly restricting on the whole. That runs very counter to the PvE design of this game, where every other class seems to have options for ranged and melee built into a single gear set.




If they weren't meant to hit twice then why make them hit twice?

That's a ridiculous statement. Of course you want them to connect both hits. Damage is the entire point of the ability.

And don't fucking patronize me. I never said anything about Recount.

It's also never going to change plus this is the wrong site to try to get it changed

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 11:27 AM ----------

Looks like we've found out his kryptonite, insulting his dps

[Profyrion]

It's also never going to change plus this is the wrong site to try to get it changed

---------- Post added 2012-09-12 at 11:27 AM ----------

Looks like we've found out his kryptonite, insulting his dps

I'm not expecting any change to come from this thread. Especially when people like you are more interested in insults than making a point. That doesn't mean I shouldn't ever voice my concerns about the class I'm otherwise committed to.

And in fact, I will continue to do so.

Have a nice day.

[DrakeWurrum]

Aside from Glytch, who here has insulted you? I'm simply pointing out to you that you don't need to get both hits to hit the enemy in order for it to be an effective weapon. You won't be at your top potential, duh. But that doesn't mean you're suddenly ineffective.

[Glytch]

Aside from Glytch, who here has insulted you? I'm simply pointing out to you that you don't need to get both hits to hit the enemy in order for it to be an effective weapon. You won't be at your top potential, duh. But that doesn't mean you're suddenly ineffective.

Insult? You wound me. My insults are far more witty

So far I've been rather friendly

[Granyala]

For elementalists, swapping attunements is the playstyle --

I'm talking about solo content, not group content. In solo content, I don't see the point of constant switching, b/c all that matters is DPS. Switching doesn't protect me from the games stupid habit of "You defeated the mob group, heh lets spawn another 5 mobs in melee range right next to you and see how you handle that ha!". Seriously it's the lamest thing a designer can do.

Instead of giving the mobs interesting abilities which you have to avoid correctly and show your skill, they just throw more stuff at you that has ... auto hit. Ridiculously dangerous auto hits... oh and a charge ability.. isn't the little zombie sweet?

GW2s game play really reminds me of Diablo III. Always playing the kiting game, never get hit... it's not even remotely difficult it's just frustrating, because getting stuck on a piece of rock can mean your death.

(staff)
Example: I'm low on health and my selfheal is on cd.
-> switch to water
-> Ice patch on the ground to slow them down
-> place 3 in front of me, run through it to heal ... a bit.
-> need moar ... water 5 .. ok.. i think it heals me...

... ok healed up ready to go, what now... duh fire still has CD.. oh look another group of undead just spawned!<_<

[DrakeWurrum]

Insult? You wound me. My insults are far more witty

A rose by any other name...

In solo content, I don't see the point of constant switching, b/c all that matters is DPS.

And this here is your mistake. O_o