Meta/Elite-Events and PvE Guilds

[Loaf Lord]

I believe the main issue is public interference. But because of scaling and its nature, I don't know how that can be detrimental to a guild trying to kill a boss unless they were just snobs.

"Leave noob, this is a guild run!" I hope that doesn't happen.

That makes more sense. But I feel the GW2 will just have to get along and accept the fact that people will be joining in if they want. I guess Arenanet wants to unite the server community rather than separate each other by making hard boss fights something you have to join a guild for. Instead of "this guild is amazing for killing mr. dragonlordofdoom", it'll be that server killed mr.dragonlordofdoom, that server is amazing!

---------- Post added 2012-02-24 at 10:53 PM ----------

The diffculty is irrelevant. You would share the prestige of your kill with Sally Standsinfire? Very, very unlikely for hardcore raiders. The allure is not loot or challenge, although those are nice, the allure is in only a small handful ever reach a certain pinnacle.

Pride is the reward. Exclusivity is the motivation.

The hardcore people are typically loudmouths, so if they want pride all they have to do is brag about how they carried everyone.

[DrakeWurrum]

Like I said: competition drives not just PvP success, but also PvE success. And this isn't just true of the "hardcore" crowd.

While I LOVE the Dynamic Event system with the persistent world thing going on, and the experience is sure to be enjoyable, it doesn't really allow for PvE competition. You can do that with dungeons but, again, 5-man content only.

[Malthurius]

The diffculty is irrelevant. You would share the prestige of your kill with Sally Standsinfire? Very, very unlikely for hardcore raiders. The allure is not loot or challenge, although those are nice, the allure is in only a small handful ever reach a certain pinnacle.

Pride is the reward. Exclusivity is the motivation.

In that case, 5-man dungeons will be even better than raids for those who want bragging rights. Smaller groups means less people do them in theory.

[DrakeWurrum]

In that case, 5-man dungeons will be even better than raids for those who want bragging rights. Smaller groups means less people do them in theory.

Will the hardcore crowd be happy with that, however? There's a LOT of players who not only prefer 25-man content, but wish 40-player content would make a comeback, all while still wanting to be at the top of the mountain.

Sure, you can have 50 player groups with DE, but who are they competing against? What mountain are they climbing where they beat their chests in pride like a pack of gorillas? Hardcore players need to have that mountain to climb to enjoy the experience.

I don't see anything wrong with GW2 not being made with room for such players, but isn't it possible to make room for such players, without breaking the manifesto?

[Malthurius]

Will the hardcore crowd be happy with that, however? There's a LOT of players who not only prefer 25-man content, but wish 40-player content would make a content, all while still wanting to be at the top of the mountain.

I find that odd, personally. It's much harder to carry deadweight in smaller groups. If exclusivity is the issue, smaller groups are the answer, right?

I believe players that want 40-men raids back, just want the epic factor, maybe not the hardcore challenge.

[Fencers]

The hardcore people are typically loudmouths, so if they want pride all they have to do is brag about how they carried everyone.

You don't want to carry someone. You want to say they will never see X encounter or by the time they do it's meaningless.

I was playing Tera earlier and hanging out with guild mates in vent. Overheard; "Yea, by the time they even clear nightmare mode we'll be on tier 7."

Velvet ropes are counter to what GW2 is trying to do.

[Loaf Lord]

Sure, you can have 50 player groups with DE, but who are they competing against? What mountain are they climbing where they beat their chests in pride like a pack of gorillas?

Perhaps Arenanet will implement a stat chart after the dynamic is complete similar to a BG chart listing how many deaths, killing blows, damage and healing done, etc etc. That would be pretty cool in my opinion and give individual players a chance be the alpha dog. Or a stat char that links all of the players in a guild. You could have multiple guilds in one dynamic event trying to outdue each other in deaths, killing blows, damage dealt, etc

[DrakeWurrum]

The funny thing is, while it can be said such players are a "minority" they are everywhere, and they're very prominent in any MMO. In most MMOs, it can be said they're the driving force behind the game - they're the ones who care enough to go on forums and discuss the game. They're the ones who care enough to do the theorycrafting that casuals would end up using (not that GW2 should need any, but we'll see). They're the ones who stick by the game through the good AND the bad, spending money on branded merchandise and thus giving more money to the company.

So... shouldn't we want to have such players? Maybe not for their personalities, but simply because they're the ones who really get into a game. They're the ones who get the most passionate.

While it can be argued that a casual player is likely to stop playing when they get bored, and go mess around with another game while waiting for something new, or for something to get fixed.

Perhaps Arenanet will implement a stat chart after the dynamic is complete similar to a BG chart listing how many deaths, killing blows, damage and healing done, etc etc. That would be pretty cool in my opinion and give individual players a chance be the alpha dog.

Individual players, sure, but not guilds. :<

[Loaf Lord]

Individual players, sure, but not guilds. :<

I edited what I said, they could link people in guilds together and have the guilds compete within the same dynamic event.

[DrakeWurrum]

I dunno if that would carry the same weight, though, as what PvE guilds in WoW do with progression... hmm...

[fishious]

There was also the talk about squads today. Might be able to make an area that somehow only people in the same squad could access. I know that comes dangerously close to an instance, but you COULD go more the route EverQuest did (I realize some people won't get this, but it isn't that difficult to understand). In Tier 1 of Planes of Power, in Plane of Nightmare when you were trying to get the key for Terris Thule. You had to go do the Hedge mini raid. To access this area, you only had to speak to an NPC and be in the Raid group. The area was still within that zone, but you just couldn't get into it unless you talked to that NPC. Only 1 Raid could access the Hedge at a time, and had something like a 1 hour reset after it was complete. EverQuest did open world raiding great, imo. The only trouble was the respawn time, especially in places like Vex Thal.

Replace the Raid group for people in a squad and boom. For those that didn't catch the further explanation of what a squad is, here is info from IAmA this morning.

@Myramar. Squads are a way for larger groups of people to band together for a common goal. Squads are led by a commander, and that commander has the ability to talk to everyone in their squad in a chat channel that only the commander can talk in. Commanders can also place waypoints on the map that are viewable by all of their squad members. These waypoints tell the squad to do things like' attack here', 'regroup here', and 'bring supply here'. Squads are extremely useful in WvW, but they are also useable in PvE and are the perfect thing for taking down our epic world bosses.

He even talks about 'epic world bosses.' All that has to be added is an NPC that can recognize people in the squad.


Edit: Other examples of these kinds of bosses in EverQuest include Aerin'Dar in Plane of Valor and The Seventh Hammer event in Plane of Justice. And for those who didn't play EQ, these are all events which PUG groups were eventually able to handle as well.

[Khelendros]

The diffculty is irrelevant. You would share the prestige of your kill with Sally Standsinfire? Very, very unlikely for hardcore raiders. The allure is not loot or challenge, although those are nice, the allure is in only a small handful ever reach a certain pinnacle.

Pride is the reward. Exclusivity is the motivation.

I wonder if you ever played EQ? You don't need instanced raids to have elite hardcore raids. DAOC had them to. Goldestandt etc.

The point is that there are two max level zones, Orr is one. I dunno if we know the other. But what would have on a max level zone aside from challenging open world raid content. No one has seen Orr yet but we know the main "boss" of this stage of the game is there. Content like this Sally Standsinfire is either going to be doing tasks they can manage (gathering resources to build a cannon, defending cannon, managing adds, destroying bone walls etc) or they will die. Its that simple. These bosses are raid bosses after all. And no I don't think most raiders care if some random is in on the action. Maybe an extremely small subset of progression style raiders. Thats about it, and honestly I and probably arenanet don't care about them. They can stay in WoW and Rift. But I can tell you this raider, who plans to be starting in Infernal Dawn shortly after it comes out for Rift, doesn't care about Sally Standsinfire.

[Fencers]

No, I never played Everquest.

[Thrax]

Griefing is going to be a problem like a few mentioned. My biggest concern for GW2 is it's endgame PVE. Guilds like to do things in teams, 10 man or above. I personally enjoy 25/40 army type PVE "scripts". So when they say Dynamic Events, the thing we already do all the way to 80, is what is waiting for as at 80 ... doesn't quite make sense to me.

I do hope the innovate raiding instead of completely leave it out. World bosses don't count, as they scale with noobs.

[DrakeWurrum]

Griefing is going to be a problem like a few mentioned.

No it's not. The devs, EVERY time they add something to the game, go out of their way to try to imagine how to grief it, and then test out actually griefing it.

If it can't be made in a way that's un-griefable, they don't add it to the game.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691...Wars-2-Dynamic

Click on Griefing, at the right.

[Loaf Lord]

I just feel like Arenanet would be crippling their game a bit by not giving something for the hardcores. As drake mentioned earlier, they do the theorycrafting, they give the feedback, etc etc. They're a necessary evil.

[Fencers]

I just feel like Arenanet would be crippling their game a bit by not giving something for the hardcores. As drake mentioned earlier, they do the theorycrafting, they give the feedback, etc etc. They're a necessary evil.

You don't really have to give "hardcore PVErs" anything. MMOs tend to find their audience regardless. That is how an MMO like Vanguard can go on for years & years rather quietly. Yet Vanguard had fans of that particular style. Heck, GW1 is like that- those players for whom 'click' with it's eccentricities tended to stay in GW1 for years. For others, not their type of game.

This is pretty fine/sensible I feel.

[DrakeWurrum]

I just feel like Arenanet would be crippling their game a bit by not giving something for the hardcores. As drake mentioned earlier, they do the theorycrafting, they give the feedback, etc etc. They're a necessary evil.

I wouldn't necessarily say "evil" exactly, but the basic idea is what I was getting at. "Hardcore" players are the people who are...

Let's say, as Trekkies are to Star Trek, hardcore players are to MMOs. Without Trekkies, Star Trek: Next Generation might never have happened. The 2009 Star Trek movie might never have happened.

Things like that.

[Deleted]

The only thing i'm afraid of is:
- can't do that boss/meta/DE because that other grp/guild did it an hour ago
- can't do that boss/meta/DE because that other grp/guild failed it an hour ago

Also, what happens if we wipe ? And how is a wipe determined ?
Having an event scale down because 5 guys went repairing would suck, and continuing to battle a 10man event with 5 guys because 5 guys went repairing would suck too.
Does the DE/event reset ? can we start it again
It would suck if event just continue rolling on, since that would validate the "rush, get killed, rez back, rush again" "strategy" ( insert repair/switch gear somewhere)

Soooo many questions >_>

[edit] that was for open-world end-PvE.
As for instanced endgame PvE, i have high hopes on eventually seeing "higher tiers" of donjons. Something among the lines of two, maybe even three, groups equivalent like FoW and DoA (among others) in GW1. Just not at launch.

[DrakeWurrum]

The only thing i'm afraid of is:
- can't do that boss/meta/DE because that other grp/guild did it an hour ago
- can't do that boss/meta/DE because that other grp/guild failed it an hour ago

Also, what happens if we wipe ? And how is a wipe determined ?

Hrm, valid questions. The common mindset in any video game, when failing to overcome an encounter (not just in MMOs, but also in single-player games), is "Damn, gotta try it again, I know where I fucked up."