Mesmer Discussion Thread

[Fenlnir]

I hope it doesn't. In fact I've been part of several counter threads on the official forum outright requesting that such functions never be added.

Not to bash you, but is there any game breaking reason why we can't switch our traits out of combat? It's already expensive as all hell to retrait, and even single weapon switches can make an entire set up useless. That's my reasoning for it. It could even just be 2 sets of it, but with all the switching we can already do, why not traits?

Hey any chance one of you guys can go through my build and tell me what i should tweak I'm going for heavy clone/phantasm build.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#...lbM9MfxpmVmbca

Looks fine to me solid. I don't know if scepter is the weapon to go, I would prefer sword, or even greatsword especially since you don't have 20 points in chaos, where those weapons do better. But I also have to ask, are you using the "bomb" style we were talking about, (where you get up to three and shatter) or are you leaving them out to do their thing? Hope this helps

[DrakeWurrum]

I don't see any reason not to include it, considering the design of dungeons in this game suggests that it's intended for us to frequently swap around our weapons and utilities in order to better handle the mechanics of an upcoming fight. And yet our only option in regards to doing that with traits is to just switch to different major traits, without being able to rearrange where the points are spent. Which means, frequently, people will be forced to go into encounters with builds that are simply not ideal.

[Ralamus]

i mean i feel like spec switching fits in with the game design. not to mention that while leveling, it'd be nice to have other ones to switch to so that way you could mess around with other weapon types without gimping yourself because your other spec doesn't support those other weapons

[Fenlnir]

Not to mention that some weapons have nothing to do with some traits.

[Ralamus]

Not to mention that some weapons have nothing to do with some traits.

exactly. i always use greatsword/staff but sometimes i'd like to mess around with a sword/pistol but it comes down to the fact that if i did it wouldn't even be worth it because my trait spec offers no support for it and it's not worth buying an entire respec just to screw around with the sword and then pay for another respec to switch back to my original traits

[Fenlnir]

exactly. i always use greatsword/staff but sometimes i'd like to mess around with a sword/pistol but it comes down to the fact that if i did it wouldn't even be worth it because my trait spec offers no support for it and it's not worth buying an entire respec just to screw around with the sword and then pay for another respec to switch back to my original traits

You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.

[Ralamus]

You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.

yes, i love greatsword, especially after the pretty big buff it got recently to its 1 and 3 abilities. 2 is amazing for clone generation and the berserker is great as well. 5 is knockback which is always useful especially in pvp where you can knock enemies off edges. the 5 point minor trait into the bottom tree provides -20% cd on illusion/phantasm creating abilities and the 20point major trait in the top tree provides -20% cd reduction on all greatsword skills. these together make my 2 skill almost a tiny 4 second cooldown and the berserker a 12 second cooldown.

and i'd disagree with the fluidity part. i always play thief/rogue/etc types and i just didn't like how thief felt in this game.

what's the other weapon you use with sword/sword? i was wanting to try out a decent sword/pistol build at some point (dont really wanna respec though) and not sure what i'd use as the other weapon. staff maybe?

[Nikijih]

You use GS/staff? Is it any good though? I can't even think of the last time I used a GS, because (personally) dual sword+blink is so much better. Unless you're going for a condition/phantasm build, but the 2 on GS is probably the worst ability in the damn game. Seriously, that ability might as well damage ME for how useless it is, except for maybe the bounce.

So I dinked around a bit on my Mesmer today after rolling a thief as an alt, and noticed that something feels really incomplete for the Mesmer as a whole, and I can't quite nail it down. I think it's pure fluidity (< that one's a real word this time!) in combat. I hadn't noticed it until now, as I only played my Mesmer, but everything just felt clunky after my thief, and I think it may be what's holding the class back as a whole. It also just felt... boring after the thief for a few hours. Maybe that's due to the clunkiness of the combat imo, and while I'll still main on her, there is something seriously holding back Mesmer's. Anyone else feeling a little like this after playing another class? The only thing that felt MORE fluid was the underwater combat with the Trident. No other weapon set or utility layout felt as good. Felt like they made the ele and necro, and just half-assed the combat of the Mesmer.

Frankly for me its completely the opposite. I was having second thoughts about my mesmer untill I played warrior/thief. Thief I hated the gameplay, warriors was frustrating because of how easy their (massive) damage is easy to dodge when you are playing against ppl who know what they are doing. So now im back on my mesmer heh.

That being said I do agree some things are ill designed, but as a whole it doesnt hold the class back at all neither in PvE or PvP.

[Kelesti]

Fenlnir, what you're noticing is actually the inflexibility of our core class mechanic bar. You hit F1 on a Warrior, you know what you're going to do. When Warrior builds had a passive +damage based on how much adrenaline you had stored (and it was outperforming actually spending said adrenaline), patches went out to encourage you to spend them!

But the way that Shatter is set up is basically saying that this apple (scepter clone) is worth as much as that PSVita (staff clone) which is worth as much as that truck (sword phantasm). It doesn't matter what the source is, the Shatter treats them all equally. But they aren't equal in any way shape or form when they're alive, and often you want to keep Phantasms alive (anyone who's ever managed to get three Illusionary Swordsmen out at the same time can acknowledge just how much they hurt).

We have traits that buff our Phantasms and keeping them alive as much as possible (+damage to illusions, +health to Phantasms, Fury/Retaliation on Phantasms, Phantasms give Regeneration [and therefore Protection]), but then to throw all of that and their toolkit away for a flat boring burst, because that burst tells us "guys we have shinies too!" (confusion, condition stripping, boon stripping, vulnerability stacks), and lowering its cooldown as much as possible.

It's all fine and dandy for there to be multiple playstyles, but it shouldn't really be down to making pathetic scepter (or dodge) clones to spam our F Keys pretty much on cooldown, or ignoring them altogether. Elementalists suffer when they're in the wrong attunement for the situation, or aren't making use of it. Mesmer... lacks this sense of cohesiveness.

Even more than Greatsword's kind of weird feelings it gives me on its toolkit (too much overlap, it's not usable on Champions/Explorables as a defensive weapon, despite being our only power swap from Sword, clone generation can overwrite Phantasms). It's that the core mechanic intended to be Shatter just feels... meh. And buffing its damage doesn't fix the problem, when the problem is just how binary the situation is.

---------- Post added 2012-09-16 at 10:38 PM ----------

is amazing for clone generation and the berserker is great as well. 5 is knockback which is always useful especially in pvp where you can knock enemies off edges. the 5 point minor trait into the bottom tree provides -20% cd on illusion/phantasm creating abilities and the 20point major trait in the top tree provides -20% cd reduction on all greatsword skills. these together make my 2 skill almost a tiny 4 second cooldown and the berserker a 12 second cooldown.

Yet you'll never ever be able to have three berserkers out to shred people. Your Berserker's also your only AoE (outside of your knockback), which instantly disappears the second your primary target dies.

what's the other weapon you use with sword/sword? i was wanting to try out a decent sword/pistol build at some point (dont really wanna respec though) and not sure what i'd use as the other weapon. staff maybe?

Staff, for Chaos Storm on a long as crap cooldown but hey, ground based rather than target based AoE, and also for two seperate readily available sources of Chaos Armor to keep you alive in a pinch, even on people that use Stability when they're hardswapping to pressure you.

[DrakeWurrum]

It's that the core mechanic intended to be Shatter just feels... meh. And buffing its damage doesn't fix the problem, when the problem is just how binary the situation is.

I still feel that my suggestion of making clone generation the mesmer "mechanic bar" and putting specific shatters onto weapons, would be a good move, for exactly all the things you just said in that post. Maybe not a perfect one, but a good one.

Of course, it would also be nice if phantasms and illusions were completely separate, right down to having separate maximums that don't influence one another.

[Kelesti]

Of course, it would also be nice if phantasms and illusions were completely separate, right down to having separate maximums that don't influence one another.

This is fine. Something actually repeatedly brought up on the official boards, suggesting that the Phantasms are individually buffed, but you're limited to only one ever. It also tunes down the ramp-up that even full condition builds don't have to deal with to get their damage rolling at a medium pace.

Phantasms dying when a target dies is also fine, but losing 0 damage clones kind of isn't. We summon 3, not three per target. Just three. If we're supposed to be "trixxy" as our defense, then why do they all vanish the second a target goes down?

I still feel that my suggestion of making clone generation the mesmer "mechanic bar" and putting specific shatters onto weapons, would be a good move, for exactly all the things you just said in that post. Maybe not a perfect one, but a good one.

Uhhh, no. The defensive Shatters actually feel fine, tying them into weapons means that you can't actually use your weapon skills without first priming them with combo points (why?), and that their effects would be either exact duplicates or effectively cut out a core defensive ability. Either every weapon (or offhand) needs Distortion (which is boring) or you screw over more Mesmers. This doesn't work. Try again, Drake.

[DrakeWurrum]

Uhhh, no. The defensive Shatters actually feel fine, tying them into weapons means that you can't actually use your weapon skills without first priming them with combo points (why?), and that their effects would be either exact duplicates or effectively cut out a core defensive ability. Either every weapon (or offhand) needs Distortion (which is boring) or you screw over more Mesmers. This doesn't work. Try again, Drake.

Right, because nobody else in this game has to do that.
Ohwait...

[Ralamus]

Yet you'll never ever be able to have three berserkers out to shred people. Your Berserker's also your only AoE (outside of your knockback), which instantly disappears the second your primary target dies.

yeah but i dont really mind not having out 3 berserkers out at once. phantasms more sustained damage and i prefer shatters, plus the whirlwind fits in well with the shattering if using it right after they perform it. the boss battles in dungeons seem to be the only time where its worth trying to worry about sustained phantasm damage

[Kelesti]

Right, because nobody else in this game has to do that.
Ohwait...

That whole you being a dick thing? Yeah, you're doing it again.

Edit: But if you'd LIKE that system, why don't you play that profession instead?

[Jetstream]

Staff, for Chaos Storm on a long as crap cooldown but hey, ground based rather than target based AoE, and also for two seperate readily available sources of Chaos Armor to keep you alive in a pinch, even on people that use Stability when they're hardswapping to pressure you.

Confused. Haven't played a Mesmer long, but where is the second source of Chaos Armor? I know Staff 4, but... Am I just misreading something? o.O

[Kelesti]

Confused. Haven't played a Mesmer long, but where is the second source of Chaos Armor? I know Staff 4, but... Am I just missing something? o.O

Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.

I often pre-empt a Chaos Armor when I'm jumping into the fray even with melee, by tossing a Feedback on a target and even with my Sword just tossing up Illusionary Armor. Adds stacks of confusion for those plinking away at the target from ranged, but it helps keep me alive until we can get a target down (in which case it starts getting easier). Repeat if necessary with Null Field as a Boon/Condition reset if you need.

[Jetstream]

Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.

*eyes the descriptions* Okay, yeah, I guess I can see that. The effects of Chaos Storm + a Phantasm casting Winds of Chaos is basically identical to, and probably better than, Chaos Armor...

[DrakeWurrum]

Staff 4 is generally the second Chaos Armor you cast. The first being Chaos Storm + Phase Retreat (or any Combo Field: Ethereal with a Combo Finisher: Jump). Chaos Storm + a "fake" Chaos Armor on you is more punishing than pushing 4 on its own, even if your'e only in it for a short time and kite a person through it (if you can't stand in it). And 4 on its own becomes an instant reapply after the first one falls off.

I often pre-empt a Chaos Armor when I'm jumping into the fray even with melee, by tossing a Feedback on a target and even with my Sword just tossing up Illusionary Armor. Adds stacks of confusion for those plinking away at the target from ranged, but it helps keep me alive until we can get a target down (in which case it starts getting easier). Repeat if necessary with Null Field as a Boon/Condition reset if you need.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Gunk

My favorite thing to Steal.

[Kelesti]

*eyes the descriptions* Okay, yeah, I guess I can see that. The effects of Chaos Storm + a Phantasm casting Winds of Chaos is basically identical to, and probably better than, Chaos Armor...

Chaos Armor, the actual (4) skill, by itself has one advantage only:
For its whole duration, no matter if you've been hit yet or not, you have Protection (-33% damage recduction). Fake Chaos Armors don't duplicate this functionality, not sure if it's a bug or intended (Blast Finishers could make it a little OP if it was supposed to?).

[SirRobin]

Rolled a female charr mesmer tonight and it was interesting. Had not done much with them before. Given that charr are the lowest rep race i think ill roll or reroll all my toons as charr.